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Because he struggled with his own God all night, in a visionary episode, until he understood his own failings......I'm sorry you and your sages can't understand the spiritual significance of that. I'm sorry that you and your sages didn't learn from your patriarch, because you and they can't understand the fact that even Jacob tells you this himself. How could he face Esau before he had even dealt with himself?
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Again, I challenge you to quote a single theological author that explains otherwise.
Josephus Antiquities 1. 331
Legum allegoriarum 3. 190.
Originally posted by Pinocchio
That Angel With Which Jacob Wrestled Was Not Himself, Nor An Adversary Of God!
It Was An Angel Of The Lord God Of Israel...
The time of the match is doubly significant. On the one hand it
is interesting that the struggle was at night. Darkness concealed the
adversary's identity. The fact that he wished to be gone by daylight
shows that he planned the night visit. As it turned out, had the
assailant come in the daytime, Jacob would have recognized the
man's special authority (v 29) and identity (v 30b). If Jacob had
perceived whom he was going to have to fight, he would never have
started the fight, let alone continued with his peculiar obstinacy.
...
This parallel arrangement is instructive: The direct response
of Jacob to his assailant leads to his being renamed "Israel"; but the
indirect response of the assailant leads Jacob to name the place
"Peniel," for he realized that it was God who fought ("Israel") with
him face to face ("Peniel"). One name is given by the Lord to Jacob;
the other name is given by Jacob in submission to the Lord.
Josephus believed Jacob was dreaming:
This article by Allen Ross who is the Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Beeson Divinity School of Samford University, in Birmingham, makes the point Jacob obviously would have recognized his opponent it it were not night. His further analysis of the story leads him to conclude Jacob fought with God.
The event recorded in the narrative gives rise to two names: God renames Jacob "Israel," and Israel names the place "Peniel. " It is clear that these names reflect a new status because of the divine blessing.
Noth, taking it to be from a third weak root sara, suggests the meaning "to rule, be lord over." Through this, God takes action in the world and particularly helps His own. "Israel" then means "God will rule" or "May God rule. "
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
No, Josephus believed that Jacob fought an angel. Let's take a look at your quote from Josephus Antiquities 1. 331:
Noun
φάντασμα (genitive φαντάσματος) n, third declension; (phantasma)
1.phantom, apparition, ghost
2.vision, dream
3.(in the plural) phenomena
4.fantasy (=φαντασία (phantasia))
άγγελος (ángelos) m., plural άγγελοι
1.angel
φύλακας άγγελος (guardian angel)
άγγελέ μου (my sweetheart)
2.messenger, envoy, herald
3.(figuratively) a selfless person[/list
In the link provided, you neglected to include the following quote from Ross (a Bob Jones evangelical theologian, by the way):
This mirrors what I have stated all along. Jacob fought Satan (same as Samael).
And Ross also states:
The event recorded in the narrative gives rise to two names: God renames Jacob "Israel," and Israel names the place "Peniel. " It is clear that these names reflect a new status because of the divine blessing.
...which is exactly what I stated earlier. The angel finally concedes, and admits that G-d will grant Jacob a new name and that G-d will bless Jacob in Bethel.
and then Ross states this:
Noth, taking it to be from a third weak root sara, suggests the meaning "to rule, be lord over." Through this, God takes action in the world and particularly helps His own. "Israel" then means "God will rule" or "May God rule. "
...which is a direct contradiction to your suggestion that somehow Israel/Jacob was an adversary of G-d.
I will concede this: Part of your confusion is the association of G-d and the role of angels. Angels are simply order-takers - They do G-d's will.
So, yes, in one remote sense, G-d as the Ultimate Creator in charge of the universe, fought and wrestled with Jacob by sending his angel, Satan.
In "Genesis Revisited" by Zechariah Sitchin, page 46, Sitchin makes an interesting observation...
The word that Josephus used was 'φάντασμα' which means 'vision' or 'dream', not 'angel'. Using the word 'angel' is the wrong definition as this is the anglicised version of Hellenistic Greek.
Of course Rashi mirrors what you are saying, he is the source you are relying on.
Ross does not say that he fought an angel.
Maybe you should explain that to Ross. How can you possibly take his words where he clearly lays out his opinion that Jacob battled God and somehow try to twist it where Ross suddenly thinks the same as you?
I think you may be confused as I stated this earlier in the thread when I said angels have no free will, only men do.
Really? He sent Satan to wrestle with Jacob? Considering the name of his opponent is never revealed in the story what special powers did you use to divine this knowledge?
A guy who believes in the Annunaki and Nibiru is not my idea of someone I would rely on for a rational explanation of anything.
was he talking about the angel he wrestled with that he attempted to force a name from it and the angel blessed him???? at Penuel was this angel Satan? Lucifer " YHVW/elohim? Jesus ?
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Ahhh, of course. You do know that the Jews consider Josephus to be a traitor, do you not? He defected to the Romans, the archenemies of the Jews.
Lest I digress....And, of course, the trouble with translations of these words - Greek to Latin and then English. I'll stick with Orthodox Jewish sources, thank you, and from sources that aren't anti-Jewish.
...and the Talmud, and the Midrash, and....oh, never mind. Yes, from the onset, I have held the Jewish Sages as the ultimate and most authoritative primary source for the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Not Westernized theologians - Not Christian writers, but Jews. Goodness forbid we actually take Jewish scholars and Sages at their word!
Agreed. And Ross isn't Jewish. But I give you credit for quoting an evangelical Christian theologian. No doubt his interpretation will differ from the Jewish interpretation. Would you expect anything less? (Are you at all familiar with the theological leanings of Bob Jones University, by the way?)
He states quite clearly that the term, Israel, should "not" be interpreted as adversarial to G-d. Instead, he quotes Noth as stating that the term, Israel, should be interpreted to mean that "God rules over Israel". Quite a different meaning altogether from what you are suggesting.
In one sense, you are suggesting that somehow Israel is in an adversarial opposition to G-d. That doesn't rhyme with the role of Israel in the Hebrew Bible.
You're missing the point. My point is that you can point to anything -- anything whatsoever - and state that that object, action, or occurrence was G-d's will. You can attribute virtually anything that happens in nature, or in the secular world, to G-d's will. Even the story of Jacob fighting Esau's angel, Satan. That doesn't negate the fact that Jacob wrestled with an angel, even if that angel was ultimately sent from G-d.
Not me. Jewish theology. The Jewish Sages believe that Angels are simply agents of G-d, and do G-d's bidding. This is even outlined in the Jewish Siddur, the prayer book used by the Orthodox Jews.
(By the way, you are contradicting yourself here -- Either you believe angels have free will, or you do not. Which is it? You stated earlier that you do not believe that angels have free will, yet here you are suggesting here that G-d did not send Satan. Who sent Satan, then? Are you now implying that Satan acted on his own free will and accord in fighting Jacob? Doesn't that contradict your earlier suggestion that Satan is not a separate entity from G-d?)
Good grief. I gave more instances and examples besides Sitchin. Again, you are missing the point. The point being that all actions by angels, or demi-gods, etc. were attributed ultimately to the Creator. This is the novel invention in Jewish theology. How else do you explain the angels that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Or that instructed Moses? Or that visited Abraham? Physical beings were involved in all of these stories.
How would you explain the Christianized Trinity, then? A flesh and bones human being - a Jewish Rabbi -- becomes the Creator? Same idea. You have real life events, with real life beings on this planet, real miracles, and then you have the unseen, Ultimate Creator, Master of the Universe.
Clearly, you have 2 things happening here in the Hebrew Bible - Direct commands from a living being - perhaps a ruler - or a high priest -- who knows? And the concept of an All-Knowing Creator, Master of the Universe. Your good friend, Maimonides, might have something to say about this concept in his books, The Guide to the Perplexed.
Originally posted by partycrasher
also weird is what another mason founded religion the jehovahs witnesses....believe that jesus is the archangel michael?
1. Do not cheapen this debate by throwing around false accusations of anti-semitism. There has been none.
2. Three angels appeared to Abraham? I think not. As I said, you need to read your Torah again: Exactly what do you see there? Three angels? Or your God and two angels?
Do you honestly even read the source material, or just listen to what you are told by Orthodox Sages?
Come on, this is basic stuff - it's embarrassing for you not to know who visited Abraham.
3. YSR. EL. it is, again, basic.
4. Can you read and understand Hebrew?
Josephus' political leanings have no bearing on his writing in regards the Bible...Josephus used the word 'dream' or 'vision' to describe the encounter.
The crux of the matter is that the two Jewish authors I cited, both alive at the time of Christ, both believed that Jacob was not wrestling with Satan.
And the Jewish theology of the time makes it clear that angels are a manifestation of God.
Maimonides made it clear what he felt occured with Jacob and it had nothing to do with Satan as a fallen angel but instead with the yetzer hara within Jacob..