Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

page: 18
39
<< 15  16  17    19  20  21 >>

log in

join

posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:20 PM
link   
reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli
 
Lodges under the jurisdiction of the United Grand Lodge of England and those in Amity such as the GLs of the States (including Prince Hall GLs) are not in Masonic Communication with the Lodges under the Jurisdiction of the Grand Orient of France or those in Amity. Therefore, there is no way that any of the mainstream Brethren would have any idea what the practices of these Lodges are. The ritual is similar but not exactly the same although differences are not significant. I am here to share what I know, not only for the benefit of the anti-Masons but also for the Freemasons here. I try to preface my comments and posts so that it is clear my system of Freemasonry is different from the mainstream, forgive me if I have contributed to confusion on the subject.

The primary differences are:

That Continental Freemasonry is Adogmatic, a candidate isn't required to make a statement of belief although the majority have a religion and also that we admit women as candidates to the Mysteries. These two factors are the reasons for the schism that exists between "Regular" Freemasonry (UGLE) and "Continental" Freemasonry (GOdF).

edit on 23-9-2012 by no1smootha because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 01:38 PM
link   


Because he struggled with his own God all night, in a visionary episode, until he understood his own failings......I'm sorry you and your sages can't understand the spiritual significance of that. I'm sorry that you and your sages didn't learn from your patriarch, because you and they can't understand the fact that even Jacob tells you this himself. How could he face Esau before he had even dealt with himself?


Funny how you can turn your own interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures into anti-semitic drivel. Good grief.

I challenge you to quote a single mainstream theologian - Jewish, Christian, or secular -- that espouses your views and interpretation that Jacob wrestled with G-d, and not the angel, Satan.

Each nation has an Archangel that protects that nation from danger - Esau's protective archangel is Satan. As Jacob is approaching Esau in the Book of Genesis - a potentially life-threatening and treacherous meeting for Jacob - Esau's archangel, Satan, wrestles with Jacob.

The leading Jewish commentator and Jewish Sage, Rashi, quotes from the Bereishis Rabba (77:3) that the attacker was not a human being, but the guardian angel of Esau who is Satan himself:

25. And Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him until the break of dawn.

Rashi's Commentary: Our Rabbis explained (Gen. Rabbah 77:3, 78:3) that this was the prince (guardian angel) of Esau.

29. And he said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have commanding power with [an angel of] God and with men, and you have prevailed."

Rashi's Commentary: It shall no longer be said that the blessings came to you through trickery (עָקְבָה) and deceit, but with nobility and openness, and ultimately, the Holy One, blessed be He, will reveal Himself to you in Beth-el and change your name, and there He will bless you, and I will be there.“ He then acknowledged them (the blessings) as being his (Jacob’s). This is [the meaning of] what is written (Hos. 12:5): ”He strove with an angel and prevailed over him; he wept and supplicated him,“ [meaning that] the angel wept and supplicated him. With what did he supplicate him? ”In Beth-el he will find Him, and there He will speak with us“ (ibid). Wait for me until He speaks with us there. Jacob, however, did not consent, [to release the angel] and, against his (the angel’s) will, he (the angel) acknowledged them (the blessings) as being his (Jacob’s). This is [the meaning of] ”And he blessed him there," that he entreated him to wait, but he did not wish [to do so]. — [from Zohar, vol. 3, 45a]

The Zohar (Bereishis 171a) - the primary text for Jewish Mysticism -- explains in great detail why Satan attacked Jacob. Even the Talmud explains how Satan is Esau's guardian angel!

The angel Satan is simply acknowledging that, at a later date, G-d will bless Israel in Bethel, and change Israel's name to Jacob at that time. Satan is acknowledging that the blessings are for Jacob alone.

So, theologically speaking, in terms of our disagreement, I have the following:

- Rashi, the foremost Jewish Sage, and world famous commentator on the Book of Genesis
- the Zohar (Jewish Mysticism), and
- the Talmud (Jewish Oral Tradition)

.....on my side stating that Esau's angel was, in fact, Satan! They all agree with my side.

Again, I challenge you to quote a single theological author that explains otherwise.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 02:12 PM
link   

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Again, I challenge you to quote a single theological author that explains otherwise.


Josephus believed Jacob was dreaming:


Josephus Antiquities 1. 331


Philo, the 1st Century Biblical Philosopher, believed he fought against himself and his passions:


Legum allegoriarum 3. 190.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 02:21 PM
link   
`Pinocchio...



Heal Thyselves With These Signs... Religion Is Incorporated!

BEHOLD!

ACT 1:
1. The Angel Of The Lord Our God... Devoured By "My Fear & Doubt!"
2. The Branch Of The Tree Of Eternal And Everlasting Life... Devoured By "My Temptation!"
3. The Sword Of Truth And Justice... Devoured By "My Blasphemy!"
4: The Cup (Woman) Of The Lord Our God... Devoured By "My Surrender!"

ACT 2:
5. The People Of The Star Of David... Devoured By "My Ignorance!"



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 02:26 PM
link   
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


If I may...

That Angel With Which Jacob Wrestled Was Not Himself, Nor An Adversary Of God!
It Was An Angel Of The Lord God Of Israel... And The Purpose Thereof Was To Punish Jacob.
For What?!? Ahem... M'Kay!

JACOB STOLE HIS BROTHER'S BIRTHRIGHT! GOD HONORED IT, BUT COULD NOT ALLOW HIM TO RECEIVE WTHOUT PROPER INITIATION AND RITE OF PASSAGE! A FIGHT TO THE DEATH!

HIP BROKE... WHY??????

Esau was... A Hunter! And Jacob An Attendant Of The House. Keeper Of A Sort!
The Story Is There... Read It!



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 04:26 PM
link   
reply to post by Pinocchio
 


What does you post have to do with the thread topic?



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 04:35 PM
link   

Originally posted by Pinocchio
That Angel With Which Jacob Wrestled Was Not Himself, Nor An Adversary Of God!
It Was An Angel Of The Lord God Of Israel...


This article by Allen Ross who is the Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Beeson Divinity School of Samford University, in Birmingham, makes the point Jacob obviously would have recognized his opponent it it were not night. His further analysis of the story leads him to conclude Jacob fought with God.



The time of the match is doubly significant. On the one hand it
is interesting that the struggle was at night. Darkness concealed the
adversary's identity. The fact that he wished to be gone by daylight
shows that he planned the night visit. As it turned out, had the
assailant come in the daytime, Jacob would have recognized the
man's special authority (v 29) and identity (v 30b). If Jacob had
perceived whom he was going to have to fight, he would never have
started the fight, let alone continued with his peculiar obstinacy.

...

This parallel arrangement is instructive: The direct response
of Jacob to his assailant leads to his being renamed "Israel"; but the
indirect response of the assailant leads Jacob to name the place
"Peniel," for he realized that it was God who fought ("Israel") with
him face to face ("Peniel"). One name is given by the Lord to Jacob;
the other name is given by Jacob in submission to the Lord.






edit on 23-9-2012 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer because Lucifer makes him drink tea



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 07:55 PM
link   


Josephus believed Jacob was dreaming:


No, Josephus believed that Jacob fought an angel. Let's take a look at your quote from Josephus Antiquities 1. 331:

"When Jacob had made these appointments all the day, and night came on, he moved on with his company; and, as they were gone over a certain river called Jabboc, Jacob was left behind; and meeting with an angel, he wrestled with him, the angel beginning the struggle: but he prevailed over the angel, who used a voice, and spake to him in words, exhorting him to be pleased with what had happened to him, and not to suppose that his victory was a small one, but that he had overcome a divine angel, and to esteem the victory as a sign of great blessings that should come to him, and that his offspring should never fall, and that no man should be too hard for his power. He also commanded him to be called Israel, which in the Hebrew tongue signifies one that struggled with the divine angel."

Read that again. "...to esteem the victory as a sign of great blessings that should come to him." The blessings that G-d would grant Jacob in Bethel at a later date - exactly as I described earlier.

Heck, even Josephus states that Jacob was fighting with an angel! Nowhere does Josephus even mention that he fought against G-d.



This article by Allen Ross who is the Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew at Beeson Divinity School of Samford University, in Birmingham, makes the point Jacob obviously would have recognized his opponent it it were not night. His further analysis of the story leads him to conclude Jacob fought with God.

In the link provided, you neglected to include the following quote from Ross (a Bob Jones evangelical theologian, by the way):

"Jewish literature, however, recognizes that an actual fight is at the heart of the story. R. Hanna b. R. Hanina said it was a real struggle but with the prince or angel of Esau. Rashi followed this explanation, and the Zohar (170a) named the angel Samael, the chieftain of Esau."

This mirrors what I have stated all along. Jacob fought Satan (same as Samael). And Ross also states:



The event recorded in the narrative gives rise to two names: God renames Jacob "Israel," and Israel names the place "Peniel. " It is clear that these names reflect a new status because of the divine blessing.

...which is exactly what I stated earlier. The angel finally concedes, and admits that G-d will grant Jacob a new name and that G-d will bless Jacob in Bethel.

and then Ross states this:



Noth, taking it to be from a third weak root sara, suggests the meaning "to rule, be lord over." Through this, God takes action in the world and particularly helps His own. "Israel" then means "God will rule" or "May God rule. "


...which is a direct contradiction to your suggestion that somehow Israel/Jacob was an adversary of G-d.

I will concede this: Part of your confusion is the association of G-d and the role of angels. Angels are simply order-takers - They do G-d's will.

So, yes, in one remote sense, G-d as the Ultimate Creator in charge of the universe, fought and wrestled with Jacob by sending his angel, Satan. Angels can only do what G-d has instructed. Nonetheless, it was not G-d Himself that did the fighting and wrestling, but instead, his agent - an angel of Esau under the guise of human form named Satan.

In "Genesis Revisited" by Zechariah Sitchin, page 46, Sitchin makes an interesting observation -- The Jews of antiquity understand that there is one Creator, but that the deity that physically spoke to Abraham and Moses was not the same as the Creator, but this speech, nonetheless, was fulfillment of a "predetermined mission", of the Creator and thus the handiwork of the Creator. In short, the concept of G-d the Creator and the speaking deity and/or deities became lumped into the concept of a single, monotheistic G-d as Creator. (By the way, I am not a fan of Sitchin, but found the quote quite intriguing to say the least.)

We see a somewhat similar concept in Christianity -- the Trinity -- and in Hinduism - the Trinity of Vishnu, Brahman, Siva. Multiple gods or god-like theological concepts, but a single Creator. Hence, the theological confusion among some Christians - Is Christ Lord, or is G-d the Father, Lord? Or both?

Other instances -- The 3 angels that meet with Abraham, and later destroy the cities of Sodom and Gommorah. The angels are agents of G-d, doing G-d's will, in the guise of humans. They even physically speak to Abraham.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 09:47 PM
link   
so........in the OT where Jacob Israel states " the angel that redeemed me"

was he talking about the angel he wrestled with that he attempted to force a name from it and the angel blessed him???? at Penuel

was this angel Satan? Lucifer " YHVW/elohim? Jesus ?

or was he talking about another angel ?



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 09:50 PM
link   

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
No, Josephus believed that Jacob fought an angel. Let's take a look at your quote from Josephus Antiquities 1. 331:


The word that Josephus used was 'φάντασμα' which means 'vision' or 'dream', not 'angel'. Using the word 'angel' is the wrong definition as this is the anglicised version of Hellenistic Greek.


Noun
φάντασμα (genitive φαντάσματος) n, third declension; (phantasma)

    1.phantom, apparition, ghost
    2.vision, dream
    3.(in the plural) phenomena
    4.fantasy (=φαντασία (phantasia))


Angel is 'άγγελος':


άγγελος (ángelos) m., plural άγγελοι

    1.angel
    φύλακας άγγελος (guardian angel)
    άγγελέ μου (my sweetheart)
    2.messenger, envoy, herald
    3.(figuratively) a selfless person[/list






In the link provided, you neglected to include the following quote from Ross (a Bob Jones evangelical theologian, by the way):


There was no reason to include it as it is not his opinion. You have already stated what Rashi's opinion was and him quoting Rashi's opinion is redundant.


This mirrors what I have stated all along. Jacob fought Satan (same as Samael).


Of course Rashi mirrors what you are saying, he is the source you are relying on.


And Ross also states:



The event recorded in the narrative gives rise to two names: God renames Jacob "Israel," and Israel names the place "Peniel. " It is clear that these names reflect a new status because of the divine blessing.


...which is exactly what I stated earlier. The angel finally concedes, and admits that G-d will grant Jacob a new name and that G-d will bless Jacob in Bethel.


Ross does not say that he fought an angel. Additionally the above statement does not diminish the fact that Josephus and Philo disagree with you. You asked for one disenting opinion, I gave you two.


and then Ross states this:



Noth, taking it to be from a third weak root sara, suggests the meaning "to rule, be lord over." Through this, God takes action in the world and particularly helps His own. "Israel" then means "God will rule" or "May God rule. "


...which is a direct contradiction to your suggestion that somehow Israel/Jacob was an adversary of G-d.


Maybe you should explain that to Ross. How can you possibly take his words where he clearly lays out his opinion that Jacob battled God and somehow try to twist it where Ross suddenly thinks the same as you?


I will concede this: Part of your confusion is the association of G-d and the role of angels. Angels are simply order-takers - They do G-d's will.


I think you may be confused as I stated this earlier in the thread when I said angels have no free will, only men do.


So, yes, in one remote sense, G-d as the Ultimate Creator in charge of the universe, fought and wrestled with Jacob by sending his angel, Satan.


Really? He sent Satan to wrestle with Jacob? Considering the name of his opponent is never revealed in the story what special powers did you use to divine this knowledge?


In "Genesis Revisited" by Zechariah Sitchin, page 46, Sitchin makes an interesting observation...


A guy who believes in the Annunaki and Nibiru is not my idea of someone I would rely on for a rational explanation of anything.



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 10:22 PM
link   
"angel" in the OT is the english translation from the hebrew malakh which can also mean "prince"

coincedentally not much different than molech? weird

also weird is what another mason founded religion the jehovahs witnesses....believe that jesus is the archangel michael?

an idea derived from where? book of daniel? and /or jacobs angelic redeemer?



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 10:41 PM
link   


The word that Josephus used was 'φάντασμα' which means 'vision' or 'dream', not 'angel'. Using the word 'angel' is the wrong definition as this is the anglicised version of Hellenistic Greek.

Ahhh, of course. You do know that the Jews consider Josephus to be a traitor, do you not? He defected to the Romans, the archenemies of the Jews. Lest I digress....And, of course, the trouble with translations of these words - Greek to Latin and then English. I'll stick with Orthodox Jewish sources, thank you, and from sources that aren't anti-Jewish.



Of course Rashi mirrors what you are saying, he is the source you are relying on.


...and the Talmud, and the Midrash, and....oh, never mind. Yes, from the onset, I have held the Jewish Sages as the ultimate and most authoritative primary source for the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Not Westernized theologians - Not Christian writers, but Jews. Goodness forbid we actually take Jewish scholars and Sages at their word!



Ross does not say that he fought an angel.


Agreed. And Ross isn't Jewish. But I give you credit for quoting an evangelical Christian theologian. No doubt his interpretation will differ from the Jewish interpretation. Would you expect anything less? (Are you at all familiar with the theological leanings of Bob Jones University, by the way?)



Maybe you should explain that to Ross. How can you possibly take his words where he clearly lays out his opinion that Jacob battled God and somehow try to twist it where Ross suddenly thinks the same as you?


He states quite clearly that the term, Israel, should "not" be interpreted as adversarial to G-d. Instead, he quotes Noth as stating that the term, Israel, should be interpreted to mean that "God rules over Israel". Quite a different meaning altogether from what you are suggesting.

In one sense, you are suggesting that somehow Israel is in an adversarial opposition to G-d. That doesn't rhyme with the role of Israel in the Hebrew Bible.



I think you may be confused as I stated this earlier in the thread when I said angels have no free will, only men do.


You're missing the point. My point is that you can point to anything -- anything whatsoever - and state that that object, action, or occurrence was G-d's will. You can attribute virtually anything that happens in nature, or in the secular world, to G-d's will. Even the story of Jacob fighting Esau's angel, Satan. That doesn't negate the fact that Jacob wrestled with an angel, even if that angel was ultimately sent from G-d.

And we don't always understand G-d's reasons for the things that happen in this world. He is well-known to work in mysterious ways.



Really? He sent Satan to wrestle with Jacob? Considering the name of his opponent is never revealed in the story what special powers did you use to divine this knowledge?


Not me. Jewish theology. The Jewish Sages believe that Angels are simply agents of G-d, and do G-d's bidding. This is even outlined in the Jewish Siddur, the prayer book used by the Orthodox Jews.

(By the way, you are contradicting yourself here -- Either you believe angels have free will, or you do not. Which is it? You stated earlier that you do not believe that angels have free will, yet here you are suggesting here that G-d did not send Satan. Who sent Satan, then? Are you now implying that Satan acted on his own free will and accord in fighting Jacob? Doesn't that contradict your earlier suggestion that Satan is not a separate entity from G-d?)



A guy who believes in the Annunaki and Nibiru is not my idea of someone I would rely on for a rational explanation of anything.


Good grief. I gave more instances and examples besides Sitchin. Again, you are missing the point. The point being that all actions by angels, or demi-gods, etc. were attributed ultimately to the Creator. This is the novel invention in Jewish theology. How else do you explain the angels that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Or that instructed Moses? Or that visited Abraham? Physical beings were involved in all of these stories.

How would you explain the Christianized Trinity, then? A flesh and bones human being - a Jewish Rabbi -- becomes the Creator? Same idea. You have real life events, with real life beings on this planet, real miracles, and then you have the unseen, Ultimate Creator, Master of the Universe.

Clearly, you have 2 things happening here in the Hebrew Bible - Direct commands from a living being - perhaps a ruler - or a high priest -- who knows? And the concept of an All-Knowing Creator, Master of the Universe. Your good friend, Maimonides, might have something to say about this concept in his books, The Guide to the Perplexed.



was he talking about the angel he wrestled with that he attempted to force a name from it and the angel blessed him???? at Penuel was this angel Satan? Lucifer " YHVW/elohim? Jesus ?


@ PartyCrasher: Short version per Jewish Sages - Jacob fought Esau's archangel, Satan. Satan conceded that Jacob would be blessed by G-d at Bethel. This is a long thread, covered earlier in quite a bit of detail.

Augustus disagrees - Believes Jacob fought G-d, and is an adversary of G-d. Short version. Read debate in its entirety, if it doesn't put you to sleep.
edit on 23-9-2012 by CookieMonster09 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 23 2012 @ 11:26 PM
link   
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus
 


INCORRECTOBLY SPEAKING!



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 04:50 AM
link   
reply to post by CookieMonster09
 


1. Do not cheapen this debate by throwing around false accusations of anti-semitism. There has been none.

2. Three angels appeared to Abraham? I think not. As I said, you need to read your Torah again:

wai’yey’ra ey’law YHWH be’ey’lo’ney mam’rey we’hu yo’sheyv pe’tahh ha’o’hel ke’hhom hai’yom wai’yi’sa ey’naw wai’yar we’hin’neyh she’lo’shah a’na’shim ni’tsa’vim a’law wai’yar wai’ya’rats liq’ra’tam mi’pe’tahh ha’o’hel wai’yish’ta’hhu ar’tsah wai’yo’mar a’do’nai im na ma’tsa’ti hheyn be’ey’ney’kha al na ta’a’vor mey’al av’de’kha

-- Genesis 18:1 transliterated.

Exactly what do you see there? Three angels? Or your God and two angels?
Do you honestly even read the source material, or just listen to what you are told by Orthodox Sages?
Come on, this is basic stuff - it's embarrassing for you not to know who visited Abraham.

3. YSR. EL. it is, again, basic.

4. Can you read and understand Hebrew?



edit on 24-9-2012 by CodyOutlaw because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 07:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Ahhh, of course. You do know that the Jews consider Josephus to be a traitor, do you not? He defected to the Romans, the archenemies of the Jews.


Josephus' political leanings have no bearing on his writing in regards the Bible. It is sadly ironic that you attempted to use his works in support of your point when you thought I misread him, yet he suddenly turns into a pariah when it is revealed you did not understand the original Greek in which he wrote. Josephus used the word 'dream' or 'vision' to describe the encounter.


Lest I digress....And, of course, the trouble with translations of these words - Greek to Latin and then English. I'll stick with Orthodox Jewish sources, thank you, and from sources that aren't anti-Jewish.


Josephus was Jewish and was closer in time to the original material then the scribes who came much later, his opinion is valid and contempraneous, there was nothing lost in his original Greek writings which survive intact.


...and the Talmud, and the Midrash, and....oh, never mind. Yes, from the onset, I have held the Jewish Sages as the ultimate and most authoritative primary source for the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Not Westernized theologians - Not Christian writers, but Jews. Goodness forbid we actually take Jewish scholars and Sages at their word!


You mean like Josephus and Philo (who you completely ingnored)?


Agreed. And Ross isn't Jewish. But I give you credit for quoting an evangelical Christian theologian. No doubt his interpretation will differ from the Jewish interpretation. Would you expect anything less? (Are you at all familiar with the theological leanings of Bob Jones University, by the way?)


I used Ross because he cited the original Greek of Josephus who makes the point quite clear that Jacob was dreaming.


He states quite clearly that the term, Israel, should "not" be interpreted as adversarial to G-d. Instead, he quotes Noth as stating that the term, Israel, should be interpreted to mean that "God rules over Israel". Quite a different meaning altogether from what you are suggesting.

In one sense, you are suggesting that somehow Israel is in an adversarial opposition to G-d. That doesn't rhyme with the role of Israel in the Hebrew Bible.


The crux of the matter is that the two Jewish authors I cited, both alive at the time of Christ, both believed that Jacob was not wrestling with Satan.


You're missing the point. My point is that you can point to anything -- anything whatsoever - and state that that object, action, or occurrence was G-d's will. You can attribute virtually anything that happens in nature, or in the secular world, to G-d's will. Even the story of Jacob fighting Esau's angel, Satan. That doesn't negate the fact that Jacob wrestled with an angel, even if that angel was ultimately sent from G-d.


Beacause this is what the Biblical Hebrews believed, that everything was God's will.


Not me. Jewish theology. The Jewish Sages believe that Angels are simply agents of G-d, and do G-d's bidding. This is even outlined in the Jewish Siddur, the prayer book used by the Orthodox Jews.


And where did I disagree with this? According to the Hebrew Bible all angels are messengers and servants of God, they have no free will and only fulfill the role that God ascribes for them.


(By the way, you are contradicting yourself here -- Either you believe angels have free will, or you do not. Which is it? You stated earlier that you do not believe that angels have free will, yet here you are suggesting here that G-d did not send Satan. Who sent Satan, then? Are you now implying that Satan acted on his own free will and accord in fighting Jacob? Doesn't that contradict your earlier suggestion that Satan is not a separate entity from G-d?)


This is a strawman as I have stated all along that Satan was not present with Jacob and Jacob was either wrestling with God indirectly (as a copy of himself) or directly.


Good grief. I gave more instances and examples besides Sitchin. Again, you are missing the point. The point being that all actions by angels, or demi-gods, etc. were attributed ultimately to the Creator. This is the novel invention in Jewish theology. How else do you explain the angels that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Or that instructed Moses? Or that visited Abraham? Physical beings were involved in all of these stories.


And the Jewish theology of the time makes it clear that angels are a manifestation of God.


How would you explain the Christianized Trinity, then? A flesh and bones human being - a Jewish Rabbi -- becomes the Creator? Same idea. You have real life events, with real life beings on this planet, real miracles, and then you have the unseen, Ultimate Creator, Master of the Universe.


I would not explain the Trinity as I do not believe in the Divinity of Christ nor in any of the 'miracles' ascribed to him.


Clearly, you have 2 things happening here in the Hebrew Bible - Direct commands from a living being - perhaps a ruler - or a high priest -- who knows? And the concept of an All-Knowing Creator, Master of the Universe. Your good friend, Maimonides, might have something to say about this concept in his books, The Guide to the Perplexed.


Maimonides made it clear what he felt occured with Jacob and it had nothing to do with Satan as a fallen angel but instead with the yetzer hara within Jacob..



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 11:44 AM
link   
reply to post by partycrasher
 
Coincidentally not much different than the Greek, malakies...hmmm.
LOL



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 12:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by partycrasher
also weird is what another mason founded religion the jehovahs witnesses....believe that jesus is the archangel michael?


Who is this person and what does he have to do with the Original Topic?



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 02:33 PM
link   
reply to post by partycrasher
 

Charles Russell was not a Mason, but thanks for playing.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 08:27 PM
link   


1. Do not cheapen this debate by throwing around false accusations of anti-semitism. There has been none.

No one cheapened the conversation but yourself. Very simple - Don't make derogatory comments. Fair is fair.



2. Three angels appeared to Abraham? I think not. As I said, you need to read your Torah again: Exactly what do you see there? Three angels? Or your God and two angels?
Do you honestly even read the source material, or just listen to what you are told by Orthodox Sages?
Come on, this is basic stuff - it's embarrassing for you not to know who visited Abraham.


Here is what the Jewish Sages have to say about this passage:

"As is apparent from the rest of the narrative, these three men were actually angels in the "guise" of men. The Hebrew word for angel, malach, means "agent"." (Stone Edition Chumash, p. 24).

Read that again - 3 men in the guise of angels. Agents of G-d. Good grief. What exactly are your academic credentials again?



3. YSR. EL. it is, again, basic.

I already explained the Orthodox Jewish interpretation of the term, Israel. Do you actually have a different interpretation, or are you going to just blindly keep repeating the term Israel to yourself in this thread for kicks and giggles?



4. Can you read and understand Hebrew?


I don't recall you ever stating that you were a theologian by training, or even Jewish for that matter. Obviously, our interpretations of the Hebrew Scriptures are vastly different. I side with the Jewish Sages, and you side with yourself.



Josephus' political leanings have no bearing on his writing in regards the Bible...Josephus used the word 'dream' or 'vision' to describe the encounter.


So, in your opinion, angels are just figments of one's imagination. If that is what you believe, so be it. You don't need Josephus to justify your opinion.



The crux of the matter is that the two Jewish authors I cited, both alive at the time of Christ, both believed that Jacob was not wrestling with Satan.


The real question is whether you believe that Jacob/Israel is an adversary of G-d, or not an adversary.

If you believe that Jacob is an adversary of G-d, how do you explain the Jews as G-d's chosen people? It seems kind of strange that G-d would choose an adversary as his favorite!



And the Jewish theology of the time makes it clear that angels are a manifestation of God.

Yes, but to you, this manifestation cannot be physical. It can be mental - as in a dream or vision - but not physical. I think you made that pretty clear.



Maimonides made it clear what he felt occured with Jacob and it had nothing to do with Satan as a fallen angel but instead with the yetzer hara within Jacob..

Yes, this is the rationalist approach. Maimonides wasn't big on mysticism.



posted on Sep, 24 2012 @ 09:18 PM
link   
Freemasons are evil Satan worshipers! They are the enemy! Down with Freemasonry! Down with the Beast!





new topics

top topics



 
39
<< 15  16  17    19  20  21 >>

log in

join