The word that Josephus used was 'φάντασμα' which means 'vision' or 'dream', not 'angel'. Using the word 'angel' is the wrong definition as
this is the anglicised version of Hellenistic Greek.
Ahhh, of course. You do know that the Jews consider Josephus to be a traitor, do you not? He defected to the Romans, the archenemies of the Jews.
Lest I digress....And, of course, the trouble with translations of these words - Greek to Latin and then English. I'll stick with Orthodox Jewish
sources, thank you, and from sources that aren't anti-Jewish.
Of course Rashi mirrors what you are saying, he is the source you are relying on.
...and the Talmud, and the Midrash, and....oh, never mind. Yes, from the onset, I have held the Jewish Sages as the ultimate and most authoritative
primary source for the interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. Not Westernized theologians - Not Christian writers, but Jews. Goodness forbid we
actually take Jewish scholars and Sages at their word!
Ross does not say that he fought an angel.
Agreed. And Ross isn't Jewish. But I give you credit for quoting an evangelical Christian theologian. No doubt his interpretation will differ from
the Jewish interpretation. Would you expect anything less? (Are you at all familiar with the theological leanings of Bob Jones University, by the
Maybe you should explain that to Ross. How can you possibly take his words where he clearly lays out his opinion that Jacob battled God and somehow
try to twist it where Ross suddenly thinks the same as you?
He states quite clearly that the term, Israel, should "not" be interpreted as adversarial to G-d. Instead, he quotes Noth as stating that the term,
Israel, should be interpreted to mean that "God rules over Israel". Quite a different meaning altogether from what you are suggesting.
In one sense, you are suggesting that somehow Israel is in an adversarial opposition to G-d. That doesn't rhyme with the role of Israel in the Hebrew
I think you may be confused as I stated this earlier in the thread when I said angels have no free will, only men do.
You're missing the point. My point is that you can point to anything -- anything whatsoever - and state that that object, action, or occurrence was
G-d's will. You can attribute virtually anything that happens in nature, or in the secular world, to G-d's will. Even the story of Jacob fighting
Esau's angel, Satan. That doesn't negate the fact that Jacob wrestled with an angel, even if that angel was ultimately sent from G-d.
And we don't always understand G-d's reasons for the things that happen in this world. He is well-known to work in mysterious ways.
Really? He sent Satan to wrestle with Jacob? Considering the name of his opponent is never revealed in the story what special powers did you use to
divine this knowledge?
Not me. Jewish theology. The Jewish Sages believe that Angels are simply agents of G-d, and do G-d's bidding. This is even outlined in the Jewish
Siddur, the prayer book used by the Orthodox Jews.
(By the way, you are contradicting yourself here -- Either you believe angels have free will, or you do not. Which is it? You stated earlier that
you do not believe that angels have free will, yet here you are suggesting here that G-d did not send Satan. Who sent Satan, then? Are you now
implying that Satan acted on his own free will and accord in fighting Jacob? Doesn't that contradict your earlier suggestion that Satan is not a
separate entity from G-d?)
A guy who believes in the Annunaki and Nibiru is not my idea of someone I would rely on for a rational explanation of anything.
Good grief. I gave more instances and examples besides Sitchin. Again, you are missing the point. The point being that all actions by angels, or
demi-gods, etc. were attributed ultimately to the Creator. This is the novel invention in Jewish theology. How else do you explain the angels that
destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah? Or that instructed Moses? Or that visited Abraham? Physical beings were involved in all of these stories.
How would you explain the Christianized Trinity, then? A flesh and bones human being - a Jewish Rabbi -- becomes the Creator? Same idea. You have
real life events, with real life beings on this planet, real miracles, and then you have the unseen, Ultimate Creator, Master of the Universe.
Clearly, you have 2 things happening here in the Hebrew Bible - Direct commands from a living being - perhaps a ruler - or a high priest -- who knows?
And the concept of an All-Knowing Creator, Master of the Universe. Your good friend, Maimonides, might have something to say about this concept in
his books, The Guide to the Perplexed.
was he talking about the angel he wrestled with that he attempted to force a name from it and the angel blessed him???? at Penuel was this angel
Satan? Lucifer " YHVW/elohim? Jesus ?
@ PartyCrasher: Short version per Jewish Sages - Jacob fought Esau's archangel, Satan. Satan conceded that Jacob would be blessed by G-d at Bethel.
This is a long thread, covered earlier in quite a bit of detail.
Augustus disagrees - Believes Jacob fought G-d, and is an adversary of G-d. Short version. Read debate in its entirety, if it doesn't put you to
edit on 23-9-2012 by CookieMonster09 because: (no reason given)