Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I believe neither because Satan is not real and never has been.

Interesting.

Such knowledge !

How did you come by it?

You were there, 2000 years ago?

reply to post by GreatOwl

So are all public servants bad Christians?

reply to post by WhoKnows100

I'd say the phoenix picture is not representing the Square & Compasses. Nor do I think the structure above the phoenix's head is depicting the 47th Problem of Euclid. It looks like it's depicting something with pyramids and a phoenix, but nothing says this is Masonic. Nor does that picture remotely show that I was wrong in saying "no" to those questions. As Josh said, correlation doesn't imply causation.

Where does the phoenix play a part in Masonic ritual?

What role does the pyramid play in Masonic ritual?

Are "rays of light" unique to Freemasonry?

Was this display funded or proposed by the Freemasons? How can you say my organization "says yes", but yet you are basing this off of your opinion?

You can keep stating "Mason's don't worship Satan" until the cows come home, but unfortunately, your organisation at it's highest workings state otherwise.

Please cite who of my leaders has said we worship Satan.

for the so called christians who are also masons and vice versa:

"let no man beguile you of your reward in the worshipping of angels and forced humility"

forced humility?=initiations? are they not always humiliating, what humiliating things happen related to lodges?

worshipping of angels? in masonic rituals names are invoked: jao, jah, bul, on, osiris, immanuel, emmanuel, adonai, abbadon, etc. all OT all kabalistic, and all could be referred to as angel ( malak means prince ) names

just posting this to help you sort yourselves out.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
Interesting.

Such knowledge !

How did you come by it?

You were there, 2000 years ago?

Yes. He was.

Originally posted by partycrasher
forced humility?=initiations? are they not always humiliating, what humiliating things happen related to lodges?

There's a huge difference between humility and humiliation. I bow before God because I am humbled by Him.

Psalm 95:6 "O come, let us worship and bow down: let us kneel before the LORD our maker."

worshipping of angels? in masonic rituals names are invoked: jao, jah, bul, on, osiris, immanuel, emmanuel, adonai, abbadon, etc. all OT all kabalistic, and all could be referred to as angel ( malak means prince ) names

No, they're not.

just posting this to help you sort yourself out.

Originally posted by GreatOwl
Interesting.

Such knowledge !

How did you come by it?

You were there, 2000 years ago?

I took time to read an understand how the mythology of Satan arose. There was no general consensus until 1213 when the Roman Catholic Church codified the mythology and description of Satan and his role.

And you? When did you get suckered into the Satan fable?

reply to post by partycrasher


Sport, are there no Atheists to beat with your Bible? Are there no Agnostics to pound with your endless Quotes and "holier than thou" preachings? It was old a few months ago. Now, it's just plain nuts. You are trying to tell a bunch of men who profess a belief in God all about God as if they didn't know him.

PLEASE READ THIS SLOWLY AS YOU DON"T SEEM CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING IT AT REGULAR SPEED!!!!

Masons believe in a supreme creator. It's their job to understand him and to learn from him how they see fit. It's your job to MYOFB! Find a way to do your job, as you suck badly at it right now.

reply to post by partycrasher

We don't worship angels nor are we humiliated during our ceremonies.

Humility = modesty, being humble, meekness

Again, nothing is forced in Freemasonry, even for one to practice humility. To go at the other angle, our initiation is not humiliating (disgrace, loss of self-respect) in any way. FYI, humility is different than humiliation.

in masonic rituals names are invoked: jao, jah, bul, on, osiris, immanuel, emmanuel, adonai, abbadon, etc. all OT all kabalistic, and all could be referred to as angel ( malak means prince ) names

Jao, Jah, Bul/Baal, On, Osiris are not used in Freemasonry, nor in Freemasonry do we worship angels or demons. How is Immanuel/Emmanuel wrong? I'm unfamiliar with any ritual that says we worship Adonai, Abbadon, or any of these names. Please prove me wrong.

I believe neither because Satan is not real and never has been.

Whatever you say, dude. I guess thousands of years of theological thought just went out the window, just because you say so.

And what text do the Sages work from?

Torah.

Additionally, if it had no basis why is Maimonides still considered one of the greatest of the Jewish scholars?

He's not. Rashi is. Rashi and Maimonides diverge on many points. Just read their commentaries.

I believe no such thing, neither do I believe in angels.

Got it. So this is less so about theology, and really just your own opinion with no substantiating evidence.

You do that. Me, I have no desire to believe in supernatural rubbish like demon possession.

Okay-dokay. I guess you can just throw out the New Testament with the bath water, then, lol.

No, it is not Biblical. I do not believe in 'casting out demons' or other such fantabulistic inanity. Maybe we can mix in channeling and psychic surgery next.

Uh, yes it is. Christ cast out demons multiple times. He was a healer. Laugh all you like.

You are flip-flopping all over the place.

Not so much. Good try, though. I am fairly straightforward in what I have presented here. Pretty basic stuff.

AugustusMasonicus has intelligently provided everything you have asked him for, complete with links, at which point you complain that is not what you asked for.

No, he provided links to non-Jewish (Conservative - not Orthodox) opinions. The best he could do was find generic web links - Not a single academic reference was given, professor. Then he chose a most bizarre quote from one of the most controversial rabbis of all time alleging the good rabbi was supporting his opinion. He even gave links that support my statement --- that Satan is an angel -- a position to which he disagreed at first, then concedes. (Funny how you suggest that I flip-flopped. You guys are a hilarious tag team of Abbott and Costello.)

Clearly, he's outside the mainstream of orthodoxy. The Jewish Sages disagree with him, and that's all that matters.

I can tell you are getting emotional here, and I suggest you remove your beliefs from this discussion and debate from a scholarly standpoint.

You're funny professor. You should try stand-up comedy. Sarcastic perhaps, but certainly not emotional. Couldn't give two twits what you or your brethren think.

To answer your metaphor - no. It is not like reading the notes of a lecture without attending. It is, in fact, if I may also couch my point loosely in the terms of your metaphor, like actually reading the textbook yourself, instead of asking someone else what it says.

Not my metaphor. This is the metaphor used by the Jewish Sages to describe the Oral Tradition passed down from Moses, and now codified in the Babylonian Talmud. Nice try giving me credit though, but please -- since you are an academic - give credit where credit is due. The metaphor is well-known.

Especially when that someone else is quoting from debated, differing schools of interpretation that were not actually written down until after 100 CE. I don't like to play Chinese whispers, and I don't like to stray from the original source. To do so is unscholarly.

Hey bud, the Oral Tradition is now in written form. It's called the Talmud. All 72+ volumes of biblical commentary. Look it up, bro. No whispers anymore.

Considering the context and the language in which Jacob was blessed and given his new name, do you know what the Hebrew morphemes that make up the name Israel actually mean?

I already gave the Orthodox Jewish meaning of the name "Israel" in a prior post. Feel free to elaborate on my prior post.

Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Whatever you say, dude. I guess thousands of years of theological thought just went out the window, just because you say so.

I am not going to apologize for not falling for the myth of Satan like other people have.

He's not. Rashi is. Rashi and Maimonides diverge on many points. Just read their commentaries.

So Rambam is not considered one of the great Jewish Scholars?

Moses ben Maimon [known to English speaking audiences as Maimonides and Hebrew speaking as Rambam] (1138–1204) is the greatest Jewish philosopher of the medieval period and is still widely read today. The Mishneh Torah, his 14-volume compendium of Jewish law, established him as the leading rabbinic authority of his time and quite possibly of all time. Stanford University

...Jewish philosopher, jurist, and physician, the foremost intellectual figure of medieval Judaism. Encylopedia Britannica

Rabbi Moses ben Maimon, Talmudist, Halachist, physician, philosopher and communal leader, is one of the most important figures in the history of Torah scholarship. Chabad.org

Maimonides, known, after the initial letters of his name (Rabbi Moshe Ben Maimon, “Rabbi Moses son of Maimon”) as Rambam, is generally acknowledged to be the greatest Jewish thinker, Talmudist, and codifier in the Middle Ages. myjewishlearning.c om

They must all be wrong too....

Got it. So this is less so about theology, and really just your own opinion with no substantiating evidence.

Considering there is zero substantiating evidence for angels I would tend to think it is more than just my opinion.

Okay-dokay. I guess you can just throw out the New Testament with the bath water, then, lol.

I already threw most of it out a long time before I became a Mason. I decided my life was not going to revolve around unfounded religious guilt and dogma.

Uh, yes it is. Christ cast out demons multiple times. He was a healer. Laugh all you like.

Forgive me if I do not believe in the ludicrousness of demon casting and other unproveable supernatural nonesense. The preposterousness of the premise is perpetrated by the pusillanimous to protect themselves from personal responsibility.

He even gave links that support my statement --- that Satan is an angel -- a position to which he disagreed at first, then concedes.

Considering I do not believe in either Satan or angels I would be really curious as to where I stated Satan was anything at all. Considering I made it clear earlier that good and evil are part of God I think you are quite mistaken.

The irony, coming from someone who constantly cries that words are being put in his mouth.

reply to post by KSigMason


Please provide the documentation of Albert Pike or Manly P Hall refuting their thoughts on Masonry's Lucifer.

And to expand on the morning star, being Venus was she not the offspring of Cronus, who is Saturn (Moloch/Tammuz/Ea/Shiva) and is the one represented by the 6 pointed star? Of course this would only hold credence if Masonry developed from the stone Masons of Saturnia (Rome) and not from the exiled Templars.

Is she not the goddess of desire, desire of worldly things?

Her power of reflection is reminiscent of magic mirrors, or of gnostic belief of god reflecting on himself to create the universe?

Her role as the morning and evening star being represented by the black and white checker board often associated with Masonry?

Her 8 year cycle forming a pentagram which encodes the procession of the Sun (72 degrees between each point) would have been a key teaching for the priesthoods which worshiped the stars and dominated religious belief until quite recently (or currently as many theories claim).

One wonders then why the pentagram is of importance to witchcraft. One may also wonder why a symbol of one craft is so closely tied to the teachings of The Craft?

This would tie right in with initiation into Masonry and dressing up as an accused witch during the inquisition, yes?

But then again, you masons do not seem to agree on much about the meaning of the symbols and allegory of masonry to begin with. As many have stated each mason develops their own interpretations expanding upon the Grand lodge dictated dogma.

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


Please correct me if I am wrong, and provide sources as you have so graciously in the past.

Does not the Talmud consist of the teachings the Jewish people picked up during their captivity in Babylon?
Babylon worshiped Saturn as EA, the sea-goat as Saturn rules the constellation of Capricorn.

Also is the Talmud not considered the 2nd most important text after the Torah?

Why then quote a premier authority of the 2nd most important text of Judaism instead of the most high authority of the Torah?

Just curious.

reply to post by FriedBabelBroccoli

There's nowhere that Pike said we worship Lucifer or Satan. As for Hall, I'd have to look that up, but I have homework to do...maybe tomorrow unless one of my Brothers can assist me.

And to expand on the morning star, being Venus was she not the offspring of Cronus, who is Saturn (Moloch/Tammuz/Ea/Shiva) and is the one represented by the 6 pointed star? Of course this would only hold credence if Masonry developed from the stone Masons of Saturnia (Rome) and not from the exiled Templars.

LOL...I do love the mixing of mythologies in your sad attempts.

Also, Venus was the daughter of Jupiter/Zeus, not Cronus or Saturn.

One wonders then why the pentagram is of importance to witchcraft.

It was also used by early Christians and the number 5 is important in Christianity.

One may also wonder why a symbol of one craft is so closely tied to the teachings of The Craft?

Symbols are ambiguous and arbitrary.

This would tie right in with initiation into Masonry and dressing up as an accused witch during the inquisition, yes?

Nor do we dress our initiates as a heretic.

Originally posted by KSigMason

And to expand on the morning star, being Venus was she not the offspring of Cronus, who is Saturn (Moloch/Tammuz/Ea/Shiva) and is the one represented by the 6 pointed star? Of course this would only hold credence if Masonry developed from the stone Masons of Saturnia (Rome) and not from the exiled Templars.

LOL...I do love the mixing of mythologies in your sad attempts.

Also, Venus was the daughter of Jupiter/Zeus, not Cronus or Saturn.

Oh you refer to Venus Popularia, I was referring to Venus Urania. There are up to 4 Venuses referred to, 2 by Plato and 4 by Cicero who includes Astarte.

www.columbia.edu...

ENUS, the daughter of Jupiter and Dione, was at first the goddess of gardens (Met XIV.585-595). The vinalia rustica, the wine festival of August 19, was dedicated to Venus and Jupiter (Varro, De lingua Latina [On the Latin Tongue] VI.20). She was Vulcan's wife but had many lovers. By Bacchus, she was mother of Hymenaeus, god of marriage (Martianus Capella, De nuptiis Mercurii et Philologiae I.1), and of Priapus, god and guardian of gardens (Pausanias, DG IX.31.2). By Mars, she was Cupid's mother; by Hermes (Mercury), she was mother of Hermaphroditos, whose name denotes his parentage (Met IV.288-388). By Antigamus, Venus was mother of Jocus or Sport (De planctu Naturae, X.142-154, Prose V). Ovid calls her geminorum mater amorum (mother of the twin loves), as the mother of Eros and Anteros (Fasti IV.1).

Venus, Saturn's daughter, was born of the foam of his severed testicles, which his son Jupiter cut off and threw into the sea. This story is told of Aphrodite Urania, who represents chaste love in Plato, Symposium 180D-181. Medieval mythographers, including Isidore (Etym VIII.xi.77), say that Venus's father is the mutilated god Saturn, instead of Uranus. One version of the myth says that as Venus emerged from the sea, she landed at Paphos in Cyprus; another version says that she first landed at Cythera off the Laconian coast. Both islands claimed her as their goddess. She is also called Venus Anadyomene (Venus rising from the sea). Both Venus, Jove's daughter, and Venus, Saturn's daughter, represent multiple connotations, including the vita voluptuosa or the voluptuous life, in Chaucer's poetry. The dove and the sparrow are her birds, Friday her day, and copper her metal. Her devotees are Alys of Bath, Aurelius, Chauntecleer, Damyan, Januarie, Palamon, and Troilus.

en.wikipedia.org...

In ancient myth recorded by Hesiod's Theogony, Cronus envied the power of his father, the ruler of the universe, Uranus. Uranus drew the enmity of Cronus' mother, Gaia, when he hid the gigantic youngest children of Gaia, the hundred-handed Hecatonchires and one-eyed Cyclopes, in Tartarus, so that they would not see the light. Gaia created a great stone sickle and gathered together Cronus and his brothers to persuade them to castrate Uranus.[2]

Only Cronus was willing to do the deed, so Gaia gave him the sickle and placed him in ambush. When Uranus met with Gaia, Cronus attacked him with the sickle castrating him and casting his testicles into the sea. From the blood (or, by a few accounts, semen) that spilled out from Uranus and fell upon the earth, the Gigantes, Erinyes, and Meliae were produced. The testicles produced a white foam from which Aphrodite emerged.[3] For this, Uranus threatened vengeance and called his sons Titenes (Τιτῆνες; according to Hesiod meaning "straining ones," the source of the word "titan", but this etymology is disputed) for overstepping their boundaries and daring to commit such an act.

A little arrogant your response was.

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
reply to post by AugustusMasonicus

 

Please correct me if I am wrong, and provide sources as you have so graciously in the past.

Does not the Talmud consist of the teachings the Jewish people picked up during their captivity in Babylon?
Babylon worshiped Saturn as EA, the sea-goat as Saturn rules the constellation of Capricorn.

Also is the Talmud not considered the 2nd most important text after the Torah?

Why then quote a premier authority of the 2nd most important text of Judaism instead of the most high authority of the Torah?

Just curious.

Because he was asked to do so by our little CookieMonster, who considers the Talmud more important than the actual Torah

reply to post by CookieMonster09


By the time 100 CE rolled around (and I'm being generous by about a century here) the game of Chinese whispers was long over, and hence we are left with the remnants of that game. Let's try and stick with the original material (Torah) for the purposes of your discussion with me, OK?

Let's also try and drop the emotional reaction you are hiding behind a wall of very thin sarcasm?

Now, I didn't ask you for the orthodox interpretation of the word Israel. I asked you, quite clearly, to tell me what those morphemes actualy translate to, given the context of the story. Indulge me, and answer?

Originally posted by FriedBabelBroccoli
Please correct me if I am wrong, and provide sources as you have so graciously in the past.

In the remiander of your post you have asked for nothing which requires the posting of a source from myself.

Does not the Talmud consist of the teachings the Jewish people picked up during their captivity in Babylon?

Yes

Babylon worshiped Saturn as EA, the sea-goat...

This is where you will need to provide sourcing linking Saturn to EA. However, I would like to know what any of this has to do with the Original Post.

Also is the Talmud not considered the 2nd most important text after the Torah?

Yes, although I am sure there are some who think it more important.

Why then quote a premier authority of the 2nd most important text of Judaism instead of the most high authority of the Torah?

Codyoutlaw already gave the answer.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Babylon worshiped Saturn as EA, the sea-goat...

This is where you will need to provide sourcing linking Saturn to EA. However, I would like to know what any of this has to do with the Original Post.

Well this is about Masons not worshiping Lucifer or Satan.

Historically the constellation Capricorn has been ruled by the planet Saturn. Capricorn is the sea-goat across several civilizations. Aleister Crowley has explained the Baphomet that the Templars were accused of worshiping was Capricorn.

en.wikipedia.org...

Capricorn (♑) is the tenth astrological sign in the Zodiac, originating from the constellation of Capricornus. It spans the 270-300th degree of the zodiac, between 270 and 305.25 degree of celestial longitude, which In the Tropical zodiac the Sun transits this area on average between December 22 to January 20 each year.

In astrology, Capricorn is considered an introvert sign, an earth sign, and one of the four cardinal signs. Capricorn is ruled by the planet Saturn.

en.wikipedia.org...

His symbols included a goat and a fish, which later combined into a single beast, the goat Capricorn, recognised as the Zodiacal constellation Capricornus. He was accompanied by an attendant Isimud.

The Constellation of Capricorn was also known as the ‘House of Death’, as the Sun moves into the Constellation of Capricorn on the winter solstice and into its darkest and lowest point of the year. In ancient times, in winter life came to a standstill and nature itself seemed to die. Yet when the Sun passed out of Capricorn it began its ascent into the light again.

Here one can see a potential explanation of the use of the Baphomet in esoteric traditions.

To expand upon Capricorn as the 'House of Death', how would this tie in to Masonry? The pillars Joachim and Boaz resemble the constellation Gemini which are also known as the gates through which spirits pass to the spirit world leading to the gates of rebirth Cancer.

This is tied to Masonic symbolism seen as the coffin with a (usually) acacia plant sprouting from it and the ladder (or staircase) rising between two pillars to the heavens. This is acted out in a masonic ceremony where the mason is 'struck' in the forehead and later raised from 'grave' by the lion's paw.

Also interesting is the Masonic use of the hexagram, historically a symbol of Saturn, also the Tau of the Royal Arch degrees of Masonry. It was not until recently that a hexagram was found in the pole of Saturn. Many have shown the the square and compass of Masonry to form a hexagram, commonly on a ring which symbolizes the rings of Saturn.

en.wikipedia.org... (scroll down for an image of this on the right hand side)

In ancient Hebrew, Saturn is called 'Shabbathai'.[105] Its angel is Cassiel. Its intelligence or beneficial spirit is Agiel (layga) and its spirit (darker aspect) is Zazel (lzaz). In Ottoman Turkish, Urdu and Malay, its name is 'Zuhal', derived from Arabic زحل.

There is the connection to Azazel, being Zazel. The scape-goat (a.k.a. Capricorn)

So why is any of this relevant? You use Biblical terms to describe what Masons do not worship so one must recognize the close relationship between Masonry and religious institutions which worshiped the stars and recall that the Bible specifically denounces such things.

I am not saying all Masons are devil worshipers, as I have stated earlier you all are developing you own interpretations. I am merely pointing out interesting coincidences in symbolism and allegory.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus


I am not going to apologize for not falling for the myth of Satan like other people have.

Inability to distinguish between belief and knowledge.

Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

I took time to read an understand how the mythology of Satan arose. There was no general consensus until 1213 when the Roman Catholic Church codified the mythology and description of Satan and his role.

So, you have officially dated the scriptures to 1213.


e.g.

Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us. KJV 1 Thessalonians 2:18

And all such references to Satan, must have been interpolated into the scriptures in 1213, to give reference to the character called Satan, and then to "patch up" the scriptures to link him back to the "serpent" in Genesis.

All this modification of the scriptures was done in 1213?