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Why Masons do not worship Lucifer (or Satan)

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posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Everyone should read less Dan Brown. I read "The Lost Symbol" and I felt like a complete idiot for having invested the time.


Are you positive it was strictly the book?




posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 04:53 PM
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The trouble here is that you are placing the commentary of "sages" above the actual words inscribed.

So you are basically stating that you are taking a Karaite Jewish position - a minority theological position that rejects the Jewish Sages and the Talmud. This is not a mainstream, Orthodox position.

I disagree. You simply cannot read the Hebrew Bible without the commentary. It's like reading the class notes from a listener, but missing the lecture itself.

The Jews have long believed in an Oral Tradition, now codified in the Talmud (Babylonian and Jerusalem). The Babylonian Talmud alone, when translated into English, is comprised of some 72 volumes.

Karaite Judaism rejects an Oral Tradition. Moses spent 40 days and nights learning the Oral Tradition from G-d, according to the Orthodox. This is where we get the dozens upon dozens of commentaries on the Hebrew Scriptures.

So, at least we know where you stand theologically. You take a minority position in agreement with Karaite Judaism, not Orthodox Judaism. Fair enough. I would argue that this is a mistaken position, but you are certainly entitled to state your opinion, even it is the minority position theologically speaking.

So, at least we are clear now. Your interpretation of the Hebrew Bible is from a literalist interpretation, in agreement with Karaite Judaism.




Fine. Here is Orthodox Rabbi Ari Shishler on the topic: ....We do encounter references later in the Bible to a "Satan" (like at the beginning of the book of Job). This is the angel that G-d created to act as the Accusing Voice in Heaven. So, when a person (whether alive or dead) is judged in Heaven, Satan has the job of digging up the dirt on them.

One thing is very clear in Judaism- Satan, the angel, is a CREATED entity.

Yes, he is in agreement with my position. He states categorically above that Satan is an Angel. Guess what? Angels can take human form. Thanks for finding a quote from an Orthodox Rabbi that agrees with my position!

Funny enough, you find another Jewish Sage that agrees with me:



Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim Book III, chap. 22 discussing sefer Iyove "...the Talmud says as follows: "Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish, says: "The adversary (satan), evil inclination (yezer ha-ra'), and the angel of death, are one and the same being."

Angel of Death. Satan. Same guy. Funny how he is saying the same thing I have been stating all along!



I find this to be a very clear rebuke of ascribing any belief in a sentient Satan in Hebrew religious beliefs.

Maybe you need to re-read your own quotations!

As I stated before - Angels can take human form. We see this time and time again - I have already given you 3 separate instances in my prior post - all biblical.

But, let's look extra-biblical into our modern times - even to Christianity. Satan manifests himself during exorcisms with Catholic priests, too. In fact, he can inhabit a human body - It's called possession. The late Fr. Malachi Martin, a well-known exorcist, describes possession in detail in his book, Hostage to the Devil.



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 05:15 PM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Yes, he is in agreement with my position. He states categorically above that Satan is an Angel. Guess what? Angels can take human form. Thanks for finding a quote from an Orthodox Rabbi that agrees with my position!


I love how you left this part out which runs completely counter to what you claim:


The notion of throwing an angel into Hell is odd. Angels are not only beings without a yetzer hara, but they have are actually just bursts of G-d's energy and can never separate from Him, let alone be punished.


Why do you ignore Rabbi Shishler's comments that all angels are part of God and can never be seperate?


Funny enough, you find another Jewish Sage that agrees with me:


Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim Book III, chap. 22 discussing sefer Iyove "...the Talmud says as follows: "Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish, says: "The adversary (satan), evil inclination (yezer ha-ra'), and the angel of death, are one and the same being."


Angel of Death. Satan. Same guy. Funny how he is saying the same thing I have been stating all along!


Yet you leave this portion off where Rambam's view of ha-satan is perfectly clear:


Rambam and Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish teach that "satan" as discussed in Iyove and other instances, refers to a person's own instincts. Not "part" of God, or another force in the universe.


Rambam teaches that ha-satan (the yetzer hara) is part of man, not a seperate entity.


Maybe you need to re-read your own quotations!


I did and it is you who is disengeniously omitting portions of the quoted text and an attempt to make them appear to be something they are not.


But, let's look extra-biblical into our modern times - even to Christianity. Satan manifests himself during exorcisms with Catholic priests, too. In fact, he can inhabit a human body - It's called possession. The late Fr. Malachi Martin, a well-known exorcist, describes possession in detail in his book, Hostage to the Devil.


I do not believe in demonic possession. People throughout history have attributed all forms of mental illness to 'demons' or 'The Devil' much to the misfortune of the person suffering from these afflictions. I find it insulting to even bring iditoic concepts such as demon possession into the conversation as a form of evidence to counter my Original Post and subsequent points.



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 05:36 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 06:50 PM
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reply to post by network dude
 


Your explanation was very illuminating (no pun intended) and not boring at all. I appreciate clarification on misconceptions I had and thank you.



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 07:15 PM
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The notion of throwing an angel into Hell is odd. Angels are not only beings without a yetzer hara, but they have are actually just bursts of G-d's energy and can never separate from Him, let alone be punished.

First, I never said anything about "throwing an angel into Hell". Never. Not once. You repeatedly attempt to attribute to me sayings that I have not said.

Secondly, all I have said is what the Jewish Sages have always said, and what even prominent Catholic theologians have said - Namely, that Satan as an angel can take human form. I have given ample proof - biblically and post-biblically - that this is theologically accurate.



Why do you ignore Rabbi Shishler's comments that all angels are part of God and can never be seperate?


Because I never once alleged that angels are NOT a part of G-d. You did. You attribute to me quotes I never stated, which has been your pattern in this thread continuously.

For all I know, G-d did send Satan the Angel in human form to wrestle with Jacob. That does not contradict nor negate the fact that Satan has the ability to take human form.



Rambam teaches that ha-satan (the yetzer hara) is part of man, not a seperate entity.


First, and foremost, Rambam in Orthodox Judaism - and even in his own time - was not a mystical Jewish Sage. He was a rationalist - More of a literalist. He negated a lot of traditional Judaic thought, and is and was considered to be quite controversial for his time. In fact, his books were banned at the time that they were written. Interesting choice to make your case, no less.

Nonetheless, in the case of Jacob and Satan wrestling, Jacob wrestled a human being - a sentient being - a "man" if you would. My original premise does not conflict, therefore, with Rambam's statement that Satan is part of "man". Clearly from the text - whether interpreted or literal - Jacob wrestled with a sentient being. As I have stated before multiple times, angels have the ability to incarnate into human form. We see angels incarnate into human form in both the New and Old Testament.



I did and it is you who is disengeniously omitting portions of the quoted text and an attempt to make them appear to be something they are not.


Well, no, actually you gave quotations that only go to support what I have stated all along. You cite evidence and quotes that go to support my position, which is kind of comical. The only parts I ignored are those that are not relevant and have nothing to do with the discussion at hand. You continuously attempt to attribute statements and positions to me that I did not make.



I do not believe in demonic possession. People throughout history have attributed all forms of mental illness to 'demons' or 'The Devil' much to the misfortune of the person suffering from these afflictions. I find it insulting to even bring iditoic concepts such as demon possession into the conversation as a form of evidence to counter my Original Post and subsequent points.


So Fr. Malachi Martin is an "idiot" now, eh? Doubtful. I guess when a well-known Catholic theologian writes over 20 books, publishes 24 articles on Semitic paleography, becomes a professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute, holds doctorates in Semitic languages, archaeology, and Oriental history, and receives a couple of Guggenheim fellowships, he must not be qualified to discuss these theological matters, right?

Fortunately for the readers of this thread, your beliefs don't matter -- Unless you want to go ahead and cite your academic and theological credentials and compare them to Fr. Malachi Martin's. Didn't think so.



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus

Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Everyone should read less Dan Brown. I read "The Lost Symbol" and I felt like a complete idiot for having invested the time.


Are you positive it was strictly the book?


Well, I still post here from time-to-time so t'is a fair question I suppose.


Fitz



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 07:55 PM
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Originally posted by GreatOwl
I don't think that all masons know they are actually changing their religion when they join Freemasonry.


Goodness. Even though as a life-long Anglican and seeing no disconnect between by particular flavour of Protestant Christianity, you have sussed-out that I have unknowingly changed my religion (even though you weren't there and have no clue of the actualities of Freemasonry).

You familiar with the word "hubris"?

Fitz



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 09:23 PM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
First, I never said anything about "throwing an angel into Hell". Never. Not once. You repeatedly attempt to attribute to me sayings that I have not said.


Do you have a major reading comprehension issue? That was a quote from Rabbis Shishler, you know, the Orthodox person you wanted a quote from. The part you omitted when you requoted him previously.

You still have not addressed it, you only complain that people are putting words in your mouth when the words were acutally from his mouth. Stop being so melodramtic.


Secondly, all I have said is what the Jewish Sages have always said, and what even prominent Catholic theologians have said - Namely, that Satan as an angel can take human form. I have given ample proof - biblically and post-biblically - that this is theologically accurate.


And Rabbis Shishler and Rambam said otherwise. In print. Like you asked for.


Because I never once alleged that angels are NOT a part of G-d. You did. You attribute to me quotes I never stated, which has been your pattern in this thread continuously.

For all I know, G-d did send Satan the Angel in human form to wrestle with Jacob. That does not contradict nor negate the fact that Satan has the ability to take human form.


No, you allege that Biblical Jews had a belief in Satan that is inaccurate and contrary to what they acutally held.


First, and foremost, Rambam in Orthodox Judaism...


Which is exactly what you asked for. End of sentence. Do you need me to quote the words that actually came out of your mouth this time?


...and even in his own time - was not a mystical Jewish Sage. He was a rationalist - More of a literalist. He negated a lot of traditional Judaic thought, and is and was considered to be quite controversial for his time. In fact, his books were banned at the time that they were written. Interesting choice to make your case, no less.


Who cares what he was and what you think he was. You asked for an Orthodox source. You got one. Is Rambam wrong now too? You know, when you seem to be arguing against everyone it may not be that everyone else is wrong, it maybe that you are just being stubborn.


Nonetheless, in the case of Jacob and Satan wrestling, Jacob wrestled a human being - a sentient being - a "man" if you would.


Considering the Hebrew text is quite clear that God sent ha-satan (the accuser) who was an angel (one of the 'sons of God') I will disagree.


My original premise does not conflict, therefore, with Rambam's statement that Satan is part of "man".


Funny how Rambam is only good when you want him.


Clearly from the text - whether interpreted or literal - Jacob wrestled with a sentient being. As I have stated before multiple times, angels have the ability to incarnate into human form. We see angels incarnate into human form in both the New and Old Testament.


Jacob wrestled with God as the Hebrews believed God was the source of both God and Evil and everything else in the universe. The angel was God because as pointed out, all angels are part of God.


The only parts I ignored are those that are not relevant and have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.


You only ignore the parts that directly contradict the failed point you are trying to make.


So Fr. Malachi Martin is an "idiot" now, eh? Doubtful. I guess when a well-known Catholic theologian writes over 20 books, publishes 24 articles on Semitic paleography, becomes a professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute, holds doctorates in Semitic languages, archaeology, and Oriental history, and receives a couple of Guggenheim fellowships, he must not be qualified to discuss these theological matters, right?


If he believes in demon possession, then yeah, he is a major friggin idiot. Have him give Max Von Sydow a ring, maybe we can get a couple of nice bowls of pea soup while we are at it.


Fortunately for the readers of this thread, your beliefs don't matter -- Unless you want to go ahead and cite your academic and theological credentials and compare them to Fr. Malachi Martin's. Didn't think so.


I was not under the impression one had to go to univeristy to learn about demon possession. When do they teach that, right after The Magic of Merlin 101?



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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so the mason or masons spent a little time doing some research and now they think they know more about judaism that jews?

masons have many christians, muslims and others going to their meetings and why?
do they buy into some imagined masonic superiority?
is that what the masons feel, that they are superior to and are the true experts on religions?
do masons feel superior to all others?
do masons feel that they should run the worlds religions with their superiorness?
is this another veiled hint at their urge to be the one religious knowledge source?
is masonry's ultimate desire to run the world at least from the "spiritual" aspect?

is that masonry's plan? they must have a plan for a future? why continue with their weird gibberish without a plan?

are they like adolph hitler, soon as things are bad enough "they" wanna step up as the answer?

come on masons fess up?

chime in everybody? what do you think is the end plan coming from these oh so knowledgeable masons and.....what are they waiting for? if you could have saved the world already, to wait until more suffering commences is a greater sin.



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 09:43 PM
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You still have not addressed it, you only complain that people are putting words in your mouth when the words were acutally from his mouth. Stop being so melodramtic.

No one is being melodramatic. You are arguing with yourself, my friend.



And Rabbis Shishler and Rambam said otherwise. In print. Like you asked for.

Here is where your logic is twisted. You can believe that Satan can take human form, and still believe that Satan is an Angel -- and hence, from G-d. The two are not irreconcilable, your opinion to the contrary.



No, you allege that Biblical Jews had a belief in Satan that is inaccurate and contrary to what they acutally held.


Again, you are arguing with yourself. I never mentioned Biblical Jews. I quoted Jewish Sages, and Holy Writ. I never alleged as to what ancient Israelis believed.



Which is exactly what you asked for. End of sentence. Do you need me to quote the words that actually came out of your mouth this time?

There are dozens of Jewish Sages. You just happen to quote from the one that is most highly controversial and debated. It's an interesting choice to try to prove your argument. Usually, when someone is debating, they choose to quote someone from the mainstream opinion, not the outliers. Your theological position is an outlier, and has no academic, nor theological basis.



Considering the Hebrew text is quite clear that God sent ha-satan (the accuser) who was an angel (one of the 'sons of God') I will disagree.


So, now you agree with me that Satan is an Angel. Glad we finally see eye to eye. Do you believe that Angels can become incarnate? We're halfway there.



Jacob wrestled with God as the Hebrews believed God was the source of both God and Evil and everything else in the universe. The angel was God because as pointed out, all angels are part of God.


Dandelions and rubbish trucks are a part of G-d as well. Big deal. The fact is, all of the mainstream Jewish Sages have stated that Jacob wrestled with Satan, not G-d. They believe that each nation has its own Archangel - And Satan is the Archangel of Esau, Jacob's brother and archenemy. The story doesn't make any sense otherwise, because Jacob was about to be confronted by his brother Esau.

Otherwise, how would you explain that out of the blue, G-d starts wrestling with his favored son, Jacob? That would be pretty bizarre. Your logic - and theology - don't make sense. The answer is: G-d never wrestled with Jacob. Satan did.

It doesn't matter if G-d sent Satan or not. That's not the point. The point is deciphering who it was exactly that Jacob wrestled with - The Sages state categorically that Jacob wrestled with Satan. You have yet to prove otherwise.



If he believes in demon possession, then yeah, he is a major friggin idiot. Have him give Max Von Sydow a ring, maybe we can get a couple of nice bowls of pea soup while we are at it.


Sorry, I will take a world-renowned theologian and scholar's side on this one. Epic fail.



I was not under the impression one had to go to univeristy to learn about demon possession. When do they teach that, right after The Magic of Merlin 101?


The demonic exists, my friend. Christ Himself cast out the demonic in numerous instances in the New Testament. I am not sure what theology you follow, but it sure is not biblical.

edit on 16-9-2012 by CookieMonster09 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 16 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by TheGreatDivider
 

How would a non-member know? His opinion is about as relevant as yours.

reply to post by shamanix2012
 

You've been civil?


This entire thread is proof of it lol. They sure love putting words in peoples mouths, shoot yourselves in the foot more pls. I did my part in exposing your BS.

I can draw up examples of anti-Masons doing this and much worse. Before you start slinging mud, maybe you should look in the mirror.


I know far more about your little cult then I have revealed in this laughable thread, you people don't intimidate nearly as many as you think.

Who says we're hear to intimidate? I came here to dispel the lies and myths spread about Freemasonry. No intimidation necessary. Now I've had anti-Masons threaten me with violence, imprisonment, death, and other fascist acts.


Heck the masons in this town can't even poison someone properly, hahahaha, cowards and fools, agents of evil.

What are you on about?


Your days are almost up!

Okay, if you think so.

reply to post by partycrasher
 

If that is your opinion, but I have never stated that I know more than Jews about their own religion. It is ironic that you made such a claim as this is exactly what anti-Masons do. They do very little research and then act as if they they know more than actual members.


masons have many christians, muslims and others going to their meetings and why?

We're composed of men of all different faiths.


do they buy into some imagined masonic superiority?


do masons feel superior to all others?


do masons feel that they should run the worlds religions with their superiorness?


is masonry's ultimate desire to run the world at least from the "spiritual" aspect?

No.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 12:39 AM
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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon

Originally posted by GreatOwl
I don't think that all masons know they are actually changing their religion when they join Freemasonry.


Goodness. Even though as a life-long Anglican and seeing no disconnect between by particular flavour of Protestant Christianity, you have sussed-out that I have unknowingly changed my religion (even though you weren't there and have no clue of the actualities of Freemasonry).

You familiar with the word "hubris"?

Fitz


I remind the Christian of this instruction,



Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. KJV Matthew 5:36

But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Matthew 5:37



I take it then, that when offered an oath the swear by, your response was appropriate to your Christian faith, to answer thus, as instructed, "Yea, yea;" or "Nay, Nay."





edit on 17-9-2012 by GreatOwl because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 04:43 AM
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Tis I... Pinocchio!
I broke a rock with a stick... once before.
Now... it seems... I have looted the sanctuary of the Heredom.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 06:12 AM
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Originally posted by CookieMonster09
No one is being melodramatic. You are arguing with yourself, my friend.


I argue with myself as you again did not address the quote I posted.


Here is where your logic is twisted. You can believe that Satan can take human form, and still believe that Satan is an Angel -- and hence, from G-d. The two are not irreconcilable, your opinion to the contrary.


I believe neither because Satan is not real and never has been.


Again, you are arguing with yourself. I never mentioned Biblical Jews. I quoted Jewish Sages, and Holy Writ. I never alleged as to what ancient Israelis believed.


And what text do the Sages work from?


There are dozens of Jewish Sages. You just happen to quote from the one that is most highly controversial and debated. It's an interesting choice to try to prove your argument. Usually, when someone is debating, they choose to quote someone from the mainstream opinion, not the outliers. Your theological position is an outlier, and has no academic, nor theological basis.


Galileo was not 'mainstream' when he initially spoke about the Earth in relation to the Sun. Additionally, if it had no basis why is Maimonides still considered one of the greatest of the Jewish scholars?


So, now you agree with me that Satan is an Angel. Glad we finally see eye to eye. Do you believe that Angels can become incarnate? We're halfway there.


I believe no such thing, neither do I believe in angels. I am arguing the point that Masons can not worship Satan because throughout history the being associated with Satan has been subordinate to God.


Otherwise, how would you explain that out of the blue, G-d starts wrestling with his favored son, Jacob? That would be pretty bizarre. Your logic - and theology - don't make sense. The answer is: G-d never wrestled with Jacob. Satan did.


Then why do I have quotes listed that say otherwise? You seem to think you can avoid addressing them when they counter your view and somehow deflect that back to me.


Sorry, I will take a world-renowned theologian and scholar's side on this one. Epic fail.


You do that. Me, I have no desire to believe in supernatural rubbish like demon possession.


The demonic exists, my friend. Christ Himself cast out the demonic in numerous instances in the New Testament. I am not sure what theology you follow, but it sure is not biblical.


No, it is not Biblical. I do not believe in 'casting out demons' or other such fantabulistic inanity. Maybe we can mix in channeling and psychic surgery next.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 06:19 AM
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reply to post by CookieMonster09
 


You are flip-flopping all over the place. AugustusMasonicus has intelligently provided everything you have asked him for, complete with links, at which point you complain that is not what you asked for. This is no way to debate -how can you have a position to debate from, if you keep changing it all the time?

As for me: my belief system predates Judaism by a long-shot, so I am able to speak about it solely from an academic point of view. I can tell you are getting emotional here, and I suggest you remove your beliefs from this discussion and debate from a scholarly standpoint.

To answer your metaphor - no. It is not like reading the notes of a lecture without attending. It is, in fact, if I may also couch my point loosely in the terms of your metaphor, like actually reading the textbook yourself, instead of asking someone else what it says. Especially when that someone else is quoting from debated, differing schools of interpretation that were not actually written down until after 100 CE. I don't like to play Chinese whispers, and I don't like to stray from the original source. To do so is unscholarly.

Answer me something?

Considering the context and the language in which Jacob was blessed and given his new name, do you know what the Hebrew morphemes that make up the name Israel actually mean?



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 07:42 AM
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post removed because the user has no concept of manners

Click here for more information.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 08:02 AM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 08:09 AM
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Originally posted by KSigMason

do they buy into some imagined masonic superiority?
do masons feel superior to all others?
do masons feel that they should run the worlds religions with their superiorness?
is masonry's ultimate desire to run the world at least from the "spiritual" aspect?


In response to those questions, you categorically said NO.

Therefore, I need to understand your response to the following image 1.bp.blogspot.com...

If I could imbed the photo I would, apologies. The Masonic stamp was all over the Olympics. This above image was displayed for the world to see whilst Take That sang the song "Rule the World". Surprise, surprise - the Masonic emblem from pyramid, eye to the Phoenix. Heck, even the 'rays of light'. You state "no" to the above questions, yet the actions of your organisation give an entirely different answer - "Yes".  

Last night I watched "Expedition 33" takeover the ISS command. It's patch is your organisation's emblem. I note the connection to Sunita Williams, or should I say Sunita Pandya Krishna and the movement from 32 to 33. Many of the slave media noted headlines along the lines of "Formal Handover of Power".....It reminds me of the following quote  "I AM BECOME DEATH, THE DESTROYER OF WORLDS…" -Krishna 

Is this what last nights symbolism told us? My take on it is yes, for the True God of Heaven and Earth allows these things to be seen. It may take us a little while to figure them out, but they are noticed. The most blessed thing right now is how He can utterly bring the Truth to light, and give others a choice by letting them glimpse that there is evil and death or good and life. That is your choice as well, as mine. His Light brings deeds in the open, for there is nothing that He won't reveal. What men choose to do with that Truth is another matter. Ignore it to their destruction or humbly repent. You can keep stating "Mason's don't worship Satan" until the cows come home, but unfortunately, your organisation at it's highest workings state otherwise. Actions speak far louder than words - you shall know them by their fruits.



posted on Sep, 17 2012 @ 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by WhoKnows100
Therefore, I need to understand your response to the following image 1.bp.blogspot.com...
That's a REAL stretch. The Phoenix is not a Masonic symbol; the Olympic shot tries to link random squares with Euclid's theorem; a circle is a circle; basically, correlation does not imply causation.


You state "no" to the above questions, yet the actions of your organisation give an entirely different answer - "Yes".  
Our organization had absolutely nothing to do with the Olympics.


Last night I watched "Expedition 33" takeover the ISS command. It's patch is your organisation's emblem.


No. It's not.




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