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Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Everyone should read less Dan Brown. I read "The Lost Symbol" and I felt like a complete idiot for having invested the time.
The trouble here is that you are placing the commentary of "sages" above the actual words inscribed.
Fine. Here is Orthodox Rabbi Ari Shishler on the topic: ....We do encounter references later in the Bible to a "Satan" (like at the beginning of the book of Job). This is the angel that G-d created to act as the Accusing Voice in Heaven. So, when a person (whether alive or dead) is judged in Heaven, Satan has the job of digging up the dirt on them.
One thing is very clear in Judaism- Satan, the angel, is a CREATED entity.
Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim Book III, chap. 22 discussing sefer Iyove "...the Talmud says as follows: "Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish, says: "The adversary (satan), evil inclination (yezer ha-ra'), and the angel of death, are one and the same being."
I find this to be a very clear rebuke of ascribing any belief in a sentient Satan in Hebrew religious beliefs.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
Yes, he is in agreement with my position. He states categorically above that Satan is an Angel. Guess what? Angels can take human form. Thanks for finding a quote from an Orthodox Rabbi that agrees with my position!
The notion of throwing an angel into Hell is odd. Angels are not only beings without a yetzer hara, but they have are actually just bursts of G-d's energy and can never separate from Him, let alone be punished.
Funny enough, you find another Jewish Sage that agrees with me:
Rambam's Moreh Nevuchim Book III, chap. 22 discussing sefer Iyove "...the Talmud says as follows: "Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish, says: "The adversary (satan), evil inclination (yezer ha-ra'), and the angel of death, are one and the same being."
Angel of Death. Satan. Same guy. Funny how he is saying the same thing I have been stating all along!
Rambam and Rebbe Shimeon ben Lakish teach that "satan" as discussed in Iyove and other instances, refers to a person's own instincts. Not "part" of God, or another force in the universe.
Maybe you need to re-read your own quotations!
But, let's look extra-biblical into our modern times - even to Christianity. Satan manifests himself during exorcisms with Catholic priests, too. In fact, he can inhabit a human body - It's called possession. The late Fr. Malachi Martin, a well-known exorcist, describes possession in detail in his book, Hostage to the Devil.
The notion of throwing an angel into Hell is odd. Angels are not only beings without a yetzer hara, but they have are actually just bursts of G-d's energy and can never separate from Him, let alone be punished.
Why do you ignore Rabbi Shishler's comments that all angels are part of God and can never be seperate?
Rambam teaches that ha-satan (the yetzer hara) is part of man, not a seperate entity.
I did and it is you who is disengeniously omitting portions of the quoted text and an attempt to make them appear to be something they are not.
I do not believe in demonic possession. People throughout history have attributed all forms of mental illness to 'demons' or 'The Devil' much to the misfortune of the person suffering from these afflictions. I find it insulting to even bring iditoic concepts such as demon possession into the conversation as a form of evidence to counter my Original Post and subsequent points.
Originally posted by AugustusMasonicus
Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Everyone should read less Dan Brown. I read "The Lost Symbol" and I felt like a complete idiot for having invested the time.
Are you positive it was strictly the book?
Originally posted by GreatOwl
I don't think that all masons know they are actually changing their religion when they join Freemasonry.
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
First, I never said anything about "throwing an angel into Hell". Never. Not once. You repeatedly attempt to attribute to me sayings that I have not said.
Secondly, all I have said is what the Jewish Sages have always said, and what even prominent Catholic theologians have said - Namely, that Satan as an angel can take human form. I have given ample proof - biblically and post-biblically - that this is theologically accurate.
Because I never once alleged that angels are NOT a part of G-d. You did. You attribute to me quotes I never stated, which has been your pattern in this thread continuously.
For all I know, G-d did send Satan the Angel in human form to wrestle with Jacob. That does not contradict nor negate the fact that Satan has the ability to take human form.
First, and foremost, Rambam in Orthodox Judaism...
...and even in his own time - was not a mystical Jewish Sage. He was a rationalist - More of a literalist. He negated a lot of traditional Judaic thought, and is and was considered to be quite controversial for his time. In fact, his books were banned at the time that they were written. Interesting choice to make your case, no less.
Nonetheless, in the case of Jacob and Satan wrestling, Jacob wrestled a human being - a sentient being - a "man" if you would.
My original premise does not conflict, therefore, with Rambam's statement that Satan is part of "man".
Clearly from the text - whether interpreted or literal - Jacob wrestled with a sentient being. As I have stated before multiple times, angels have the ability to incarnate into human form. We see angels incarnate into human form in both the New and Old Testament.
The only parts I ignored are those that are not relevant and have nothing to do with the discussion at hand.
So Fr. Malachi Martin is an "idiot" now, eh? Doubtful. I guess when a well-known Catholic theologian writes over 20 books, publishes 24 articles on Semitic paleography, becomes a professor at the Vatican's Pontifical Biblical Institute, holds doctorates in Semitic languages, archaeology, and Oriental history, and receives a couple of Guggenheim fellowships, he must not be qualified to discuss these theological matters, right?
Fortunately for the readers of this thread, your beliefs don't matter -- Unless you want to go ahead and cite your academic and theological credentials and compare them to Fr. Malachi Martin's. Didn't think so.
You still have not addressed it, you only complain that people are putting words in your mouth when the words were acutally from his mouth. Stop being so melodramtic.
And Rabbis Shishler and Rambam said otherwise. In print. Like you asked for.
No, you allege that Biblical Jews had a belief in Satan that is inaccurate and contrary to what they acutally held.
Which is exactly what you asked for. End of sentence. Do you need me to quote the words that actually came out of your mouth this time?
Considering the Hebrew text is quite clear that God sent ha-satan (the accuser) who was an angel (one of the 'sons of God') I will disagree.
Jacob wrestled with God as the Hebrews believed God was the source of both God and Evil and everything else in the universe. The angel was God because as pointed out, all angels are part of God.
If he believes in demon possession, then yeah, he is a major friggin idiot. Have him give Max Von Sydow a ring, maybe we can get a couple of nice bowls of pea soup while we are at it.
I was not under the impression one had to go to univeristy to learn about demon possession. When do they teach that, right after The Magic of Merlin 101?
This entire thread is proof of it lol. They sure love putting words in peoples mouths, shoot yourselves in the foot more pls. I did my part in exposing your BS.
I know far more about your little cult then I have revealed in this laughable thread, you people don't intimidate nearly as many as you think.
Heck the masons in this town can't even poison someone properly, hahahaha, cowards and fools, agents of evil.
Your days are almost up!
masons have many christians, muslims and others going to their meetings and why?
do they buy into some imagined masonic superiority?
do masons feel superior to all others?
do masons feel that they should run the worlds religions with their superiorness?
is masonry's ultimate desire to run the world at least from the "spiritual" aspect?
Originally posted by Fitzgibbon
Originally posted by GreatOwl
I don't think that all masons know they are actually changing their religion when they join Freemasonry.
Goodness. Even though as a life-long Anglican and seeing no disconnect between by particular flavour of Protestant Christianity, you have sussed-out that I have unknowingly changed my religion (even though you weren't there and have no clue of the actualities of Freemasonry).
You familiar with the word "hubris"?
Fitz
Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. KJV Matthew 5:36
But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. Matthew 5:37
Originally posted by CookieMonster09
No one is being melodramatic. You are arguing with yourself, my friend.
Here is where your logic is twisted. You can believe that Satan can take human form, and still believe that Satan is an Angel -- and hence, from G-d. The two are not irreconcilable, your opinion to the contrary.
Again, you are arguing with yourself. I never mentioned Biblical Jews. I quoted Jewish Sages, and Holy Writ. I never alleged as to what ancient Israelis believed.
There are dozens of Jewish Sages. You just happen to quote from the one that is most highly controversial and debated. It's an interesting choice to try to prove your argument. Usually, when someone is debating, they choose to quote someone from the mainstream opinion, not the outliers. Your theological position is an outlier, and has no academic, nor theological basis.
So, now you agree with me that Satan is an Angel. Glad we finally see eye to eye. Do you believe that Angels can become incarnate? We're halfway there.
Otherwise, how would you explain that out of the blue, G-d starts wrestling with his favored son, Jacob? That would be pretty bizarre. Your logic - and theology - don't make sense. The answer is: G-d never wrestled with Jacob. Satan did.
Sorry, I will take a world-renowned theologian and scholar's side on this one. Epic fail.
The demonic exists, my friend. Christ Himself cast out the demonic in numerous instances in the New Testament. I am not sure what theology you follow, but it sure is not biblical.
Originally posted by KSigMason
do they buy into some imagined masonic superiority?
do masons feel superior to all others?
do masons feel that they should run the worlds religions with their superiorness?
is masonry's ultimate desire to run the world at least from the "spiritual" aspect?
That's a REAL stretch. The Phoenix is not a Masonic symbol; the Olympic shot tries to link random squares with Euclid's theorem; a circle is a circle; basically, correlation does not imply causation.
Originally posted by WhoKnows100
Therefore, I need to understand your response to the following image 1.bp.blogspot.com...
Our organization had absolutely nothing to do with the Olympics.
You state "no" to the above questions, yet the actions of your organisation give an entirely different answer - "Yes".
Last night I watched "Expedition 33" takeover the ISS command. It's patch is your organisation's emblem.