Hobby Lobby Files Suit over HHS Mandate, Could Face $1.3 Million in Fines

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posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:39 AM
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reply to post by olliemc84
 


There are only 6 states in the country that allow minors to get abortions without parental consent. So why even bring the argument up?
because, unless Obamacare is only implemented in those 6 states, that number is about to expand, exponentially ... it's in the Act itself.

Hobby Lobby operations (or any other) shouldn't be restricted by state.
odd, there isn't one within 4 counties connected to mine in this state.

oh, so you respond to my commentary then claim it's "off-topic" ??
isn't that just rich


save your pulpit preaching for your congregation, i am not a member.

Hobby Lobby donations would nullify your coveting comment, nice try though.
www.chacha.com...
www.hobbylobby.com...




posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by mikegrouchy
 

ummmmm. next Thursday is Nov 1 or am i missing something here ??



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by FreebirdGirl
Elective or not? Who are you to make a determination on what coverage I should recieve? Any procedure that is not life threatening is considered elective:


The National Center for Health Statistics of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control noted that over 40 million elective medical procedures are performed every year, and the number seems to be growing. Elective procedures are those surgeries and treatments that are planned, non-emergency procedures that allow for a better quality of life for patients. These elective procedures may make an impact on national health care costs, so it's important to understand which procedures are elective medical procedures and which are medically necessary, spontaneous emergency procedures.

Plastic Surgery
The American Society of Plastic Surgeons noted in its 2008 annual report that 12.1 million elective plastic surgery procedures were completed that year, a three-percent increase from the year before. As Hollywood stars and an increasingly appearance-driven society teaches that if you don't like something about your looks you should simply change them, millions flock to their plastic surgeon's office for breast enhancement, face lifts, liposuction and other alterations in their quest for the perfect face and body.


Refractive Surgery
Those who have less-than-perfect eyesight often choose to get refractive surgery, which is an elective laser eye surgery that they can get in order to improve their sight. While some may have exceptionally bad eyesight, most often it is corrected by lenses, making laser eye surgery a planned, non-emergency procedure that has been undergone by about eight million people in the United States, according to eyesight website AllAboutVision.com.

Gynecological Surgery
While sometimes medically necessary for a woman's reproductive health, gynecological surgery like a hysterectomy or tubal ligation will be performed on a planned basis, with a doctor scheduling the procedure for the woman, either because she hopes to become sterilized or because it will affect her health in some way. These are rarely emergency procedures.

Exploratory Surgery
Often when a doctor or team of doctors needs more information about a condition, they will perform exploratory or diagnostic surgery to retrieve tissue samples, run cameras to have a closer look, or perform a biopsy to determine if a mass is cancerous. These exploratory surgeries are often done on an outpatient basis.

Cardiovascular Surgery
Those who suffer from high blood pressure or have had problems with heart attack or stroke may have a pacemaker put in, or have angioplasty performed to improve the function of their hearts. This type of surgery is usually known about far in advance as a cardiologist can note when a patient might have a heart problem in the future.

Musculoskeletal System Surgery
As humans age, their bones and joints tend to become less functional. After years of use, certain bones and joins, namely the hip and shoulder, can become worn and painful. Hip replacement surgery is fairly common in the United States, with the hip joint being replaced with a metal implant to simulate the function of the hip. This is planned and carried out via a scheduled surgery.



Read more: www.livestrong.com...




So according to you none of these procedures should be covered? Or is it only the ones that you choose that are acceptable?


Deny Ignorance.


Yes, if it is elective it should not be MANDATORY to be covered. If you want plastic surgery because you think at 40 you shouldn't have any wrinkles go pay and have it done.

If you decide glasses make you look like a geek and you want surgery instead, go for it, but you're paying.

Exploratory surgery is not necessarily elective, not sure why you put it in there. It can save a persons life.

Cardiovascular surgery saves lives, why did you include it?

Gynecological surgery can save a persons life as well. If it has nothing to do with a woman's health it should not be MANDATORY that it's covered.

If you don't like the health plan offered go buy your own.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by LightWarrior11

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by LightWarrior11
Really? I'm not talking about condoms, you don't need to see a doctor or have a prescription for that.

This is your quote.

Contraceptives on the other hand should be covered because if you become pregnant they'll have to pay more to cover the entire pregnancy and everything that comes a long with that AND give the employee months off even after the baby is born.

Unless you can provide an alternative reasoning condoms fit that description. We now have gender discrimination. Women are allowed contraceptives covered by insurance to prevent pregnancy and men are not.

Just so you know, insurance benefits don't stop at the Dr. office, I am entitled to massages for free from my insurance, and I don't need a prescription.


If you want condoms to fit into my description so badly then imagine it there. My argument was not based on the need for men's birth-control or over the counter male birthcontrol. If you want to talk about men's birhcontrol feel free to do so but do not try to force it upon me to include or discuss. My earlier comment was focused towards women's non over the counter contraceptive.

There are hundreds upon thousands of insurance policies, I realize that insurance benefits don't stop At the "doctors office" in some policies, but not all policies are the same nor does every policy offer anything "free" at all. In regards to the insurance discount Comment earlier, ive experienced where employees receive a discount card for "health" items bought over the counter at grocery stores. I've used one. You have to give the cashier that card at the time of purchase and it deducts a certain amount from certain items in regards to bodily products. I would not be surprised if Condoms were also part of that discount (or could be included) but The evidence is non conclusive since I never bought condoms & used that card.

edit on 25-10-2012 by LightWarrior11 because: (no reason given)


I'm sorry, but just because you don't want to discuss a topic does not mean it's not a valid topic for discussion. You gave a specific reason for why BC needs to be covered. I responded to your very specific reason. Just because my response invalidates your reason doesn't mean you can pick and choose what you wish to discuss as long as I am staying on topic. Just an FYI, condoms are not included, it is only female birth control that is mandatory, thus further invalidating your reasoning, or making the law sexist and invalid.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by antonia
Should have just gone full bore socialist and did single payer. I'm sure people would be complaining then. As for Hobby Lobby being moral, please, you don't get to ship in crap made by workers paid next to nothing in China and then talk about the moral high ground. Their yarn is garbage anyway.


I agree, I am 100% for single payer. I do not consider it socialist though unless the actual healthcare field was made a state agency, which I am not for. Public insurance, private healthcare, that's what I want.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by liejunkie01

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by liejunkie01
To own religious folks think that the law does not apply to them.

I used to like hobby lobby. Now they will not be getting any business from liejunkie.

The law is the law folks, religious people are no better than anyone else, even though deep down they really think that they are. Even if they do not want to admit it. That is one reason I am not religous.

Fair is fair and this is why we have a court system.


The law is the law, that's funny since it has NEVER been the law. It was only done recently as propaganda to gain votes. Way to obfuscate the issue, which is not the law is the law, it is that the law was changed in an unconstitutional manner. What if a law came out that said all 1st, 3rd, 5th, and 7th children must be aborted. The law is the law right ...


Is there a law that says one must abort any child?

We can play the what If's all day long.

Are they not going to get fined by not obeying the law? You see it as a vote getter. Others see it as a law.

Your entire reply to mine was moot.






Let me go slower. You said the law is the law, so we have to follow it. I said, so if a new law (since what we are discussing is a NEW law) said women MUST abort their children you would be in favor of that and think it's perfectly alright, since we have to follow the laws.

Just because something is made law does not make it Constitutional. Are you for Arizona's immigration laws? Should those have not been challenged? They were the law afterall.

It is a law, and it's purpose was to get votes. My reply was valid, you simply refused to engage since my reply put more holes in your replies than a slice of swiss cheese.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by liejunkie01
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


I was going to edit my above post I just made but I am on the gf's cell phone and it is quite a hassle.

O just went back and reread the article. It seems to me that you did not even read the article because H.L. explains it reasons within the first couple of paragraphs.

Here is a partial of a direct quote,

" demanding that the government respect the business's desire to operate in accordance with Christian principles."

There is another nice quote from the company below that statement.

Please read it seems that you are interjecting your own beliefs with the beliefs of H.L.

I am not sure why you think that. I am well aware of exactly what the issue is and have not interjected my beliefs at all. The government is preventing them from practicing religious freedom without cause. I have no idea why you are confused.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 

Unless you can provide an alternative reasoning condoms fit that description.
you are really reaching with condoms or any over-the-counter contraceptive that can be provided sans a dr.

the only dr necessitated male contraceptives available are of a surgical nature, so there is no comparison regardless how much you wish there was.

unless, you'd be suggesting that all future vasectomies be solely charged to the patient and not covered on any insurance policy ??




My reply was directed to a specific post that stated birth control must be provided to women to decrease pregnancies which are expensive. My reply was that in my opinion, IF that was the reason (which it is not), then it is gender discrimination to only allow women options to reduce pregnancies, especially when condoms are less intrusive and have fewer side effects to accomplish the same goal.

As I explained in my post, insurance is not limited to Dr. visits, I am able to get free massages under my insurance and no Dr. visit is ever required, nor any prescription. As far as Vasectomies go, they should not be MANDATORY coverage, it should be an incentive, unless it was done for a clear health reason and not electively done.

My response was not suggesting that condoms be covered under insurance, they should not be, it was highlighting that birth control should not be mandatory for the sole purpose of pregnancy reduction. My post was highlighting the problem with that line of thinking.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by Ahabstar
reply to post by generik
 


No. It doesn't even cover needed things like dental, optical or psychological needs for personal well being. Odd that it would cover abortions and not glasses, fillings for cavities or gender reassignment surgery for those so inclined.


It becomes less odd when you realize the purpose of these things is to get votes, not provide better healthcare.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by Taiyed
Hobby Lobby is a Corporation, not a Church.

Sorry, but they have to follow the law.


The law is unconstitutional. Sorry, the government has to follow the Constitution.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by Taiyed

Originally posted by Honor93

Originally posted by Taiyed
Hobby Lobby is a Corporation, not a Church.

Sorry, but they have to follow the law.
the target is religious practices (which are universal and protected), not corporations or any specific church.

so, according to you, religiously affiliated corporations (both for and non-profit) shouldn't be exempt either, right ??
they are corporations too ya know.

fyi, if one gets an exemption, all should.



The law doesn't force any individual to partake in any practices.

Seperation of Church and State goes both ways, meaning that the Church shouldn't be trying to influence US law just as much as the US government shouldn't be influencing official Church doctrine.


Yes, and what we have is the government telling the Church how to act. The Church is not trying to make birth control illegal. The Church is not trying to ban anything. The Church is staying neutral, as it should.

The Government is telling the Church how to act. The Government is forcing the Church to abandon religious principles without a compelling reason to do so. So again, you believe in the separation of Church and State, so why are you for the State dictating to the Church?



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:42 PM
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Originally posted by Honor93
reply to post by generik
 

because the "pill" is not solely a pregnancy prevention tool.

abortion is entirely a different topic and from what i've read, the exchanges are permitting one policy per exchange to refuse coverage for them ... however, BCPs are frequently used as medically necessary treatment for a variety of other medical issues and should be covered as medically necessary.

however, therein lies the conflict.

personally, regardless of the religious argument, i am more dismayed that PARENTS aren't in a complete tizzy over their minors receiving said procedures without parental consent ... and, employers are paying for it !!!


Well that is not a difficult problem to solve. Anyone wanting access to "the pill" should have to prove it is medically necessary. At that point they are not taking Birth Control, they are taking a medication which prevents pregnancy as a side effect, and should not be able to be denied. Compromise can be reached, but this isn't about healthcare, it's about votes.



posted on Oct, 27 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by olliemc84
reply to post by Honor93
 





personally, regardless of the religious argument, i am more dismayed that PARENTS aren't in a complete tizzy over their minors receiving said procedures without parental consent ... and, employers are paying for it !!!


How? How are employers paying for a minor to receive procedures without parental consent? As far as I know minors aren't eligible to receive health insurance benefits from an employer and should still be on their parents health coverage.

Most companies don't offer health insurance coverage until the employee reaches the age of 19 and are full time employees.

But someone can prove me wrong.


You just stated how. The children are on the parents Health Insurance. Children can access these benefits and it is ILLEGAL for anyone to notify the parents. So you're underage teen daughter can go get an abortion and not only do they not need your consent it is ILLEGAL for them to ever tell you.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 01:28 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by Taiyed
Hobby Lobby is a Corporation, not a Church.

Sorry, but they have to follow the law.


The law is unconstitutional. Sorry, the government has to follow the Constitution.


The SCOTUS reviewed the entire law, they never determined this portion of it unconstitutional.

So sorry, Corporations, including Hobby Lobby, need to follow the law.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 01:37 AM
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Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by FreebirdGirl
Elective or not? Who are you to make a determination on what coverage I should recieve? Any procedure that is not life threatening is considered elective:


The National Center for Health Statistics of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control noted that over 40 million elective medical procedures are performed every year, and the number seems to be growing. Elective procedures are those surgeries and treatments that are planned, non-emergency procedures that allow for a better quality of life for patients. These elective procedures may make an impact on national health care costs, so it's important to understand which procedures are elective medical procedures and which are medically necessary, spontaneous emergency procedures.

Plastic Surgery
The American Society of Plastic Surgeons noted in its 2008 annual report that 12.1 million elective plastic surgery procedures were completed that year, a three-percent increase from the year before. As Hollywood stars and an increasingly appearance-driven society teaches that if you don't like something about your looks you should simply change them, millions flock to their plastic surgeon's office for breast enhancement, face lifts, liposuction and other alterations in their quest for the perfect face and body.


Refractive Surgery
Those who have less-than-perfect eyesight often choose to get refractive surgery, which is an elective laser eye surgery that they can get in order to improve their sight. While some may have exceptionally bad eyesight, most often it is corrected by lenses, making laser eye surgery a planned, non-emergency procedure that has been undergone by about eight million people in the United States, according to eyesight website AllAboutVision.com.

Gynecological Surgery
While sometimes medically necessary for a woman's reproductive health, gynecological surgery like a hysterectomy or tubal ligation will be performed on a planned basis, with a doctor scheduling the procedure for the woman, either because she hopes to become sterilized or because it will affect her health in some way. These are rarely emergency procedures.

Exploratory Surgery
Often when a doctor or team of doctors needs more information about a condition, they will perform exploratory or diagnostic surgery to retrieve tissue samples, run cameras to have a closer look, or perform a biopsy to determine if a mass is cancerous. These exploratory surgeries are often done on an outpatient basis.

Cardiovascular Surgery
Those who suffer from high blood pressure or have had problems with heart attack or stroke may have a pacemaker put in, or have angioplasty performed to improve the function of their hearts. This type of surgery is usually known about far in advance as a cardiologist can note when a patient might have a heart problem in the future.

Musculoskeletal System Surgery
As humans age, their bones and joints tend to become less functional. After years of use, certain bones and joins, namely the hip and shoulder, can become worn and painful. Hip replacement surgery is fairly common in the United States, with the hip joint being replaced with a metal implant to simulate the function of the hip. This is planned and carried out via a scheduled surgery.



Read more: www.livestrong.com...




So according to you none of these procedures should be covered? Or is it only the ones that you choose that are acceptable?


Deny Ignorance.


Yes, if it is elective it should not be MANDATORY to be covered. If you want plastic surgery because you think at 40 you shouldn't have any wrinkles go pay and have it done.

If you decide glasses make you look like a geek and you want surgery instead, go for it, but you're paying.

Exploratory surgery is not necessarily elective, not sure why you put it in there. It can save a persons life.

Cardiovascular surgery saves lives, why did you include it?

Gynecological surgery can save a persons life as well. If it has nothing to do with a woman's health it should not be MANDATORY that it's covered.

If you don't like the health plan offered go buy your own.


FYI all these are considered elective surgery. Reread my post - according to the National Institue of Health elective surgery is any surgery that is not immediately required to save a life. By the way thanks to a humane employer my health insurance is great. Premiums are not bad either. If everyone was as educated on the subject as you are I would not have had elective surgery on my jaw only to discover two tumors. But you know what's best for me right?



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 02:08 AM
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reply to post by FreebirdGirl
 


Why are you confusing what I think an employer SHOULD do and what I believe an employer should be FORCED to do?

I think we should all tell the truth and not lie, I am not for lying being a criminal offense.

I love the fact I get free massages, I don't think it should be required.

I am sorry you can not differentiate between the two.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by Taiyed

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by Taiyed
Hobby Lobby is a Corporation, not a Church.

Sorry, but they have to follow the law.


The law is unconstitutional. Sorry, the government has to follow the Constitution.


The SCOTUS reviewed the entire law, they never determined this portion of it unconstitutional.

So sorry, Corporations, including Hobby Lobby, need to follow the law.


Ummm no, there is an ongoing legal battle as we speak. If it had already been decided there would be no legal battle. Try again.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 02:22 AM
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[.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by FreebirdGirl
 


Why are you confusing what I think an employer SHOULD do and what I believe an employer should be FORCED to do?

I think we should all tell the truth and not lie, I am not for lying being a criminal offense.

I love the fact I get free massages, I don't think it should be required.

I am sorry you can not differentiate between the two.




Yes, if it is elective it should not be MANDATORY to be covered.

This is your post. Is it not?

Are you not saying all elective surgery should not be covered?

Where am I lying ? Do you know the definition of elective surgery? Look it up?
The surgery I had is called TMJ arthroplasty and it is considered elective. I hope that companies who do not provide this "elective coverage" would be forced to provide insurance that could mean the difference in life, death or quality of life. Elective surgery can save lives.

Deny Ignorance



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by OccamsRazor04
 


They are challenging the law because of religious beliefs.

= They feel that the law should not pertain to them.

I am not in any way for the government making anything mandetory such as insurance.

I am stating that they are trying to fight the( law unjust or not) because they feel that they should not have to follow it on religious beliefs.

They only feel it is unjust because of their "moral ethics". How can you sit there and say it any other way?

It is about religion versus the law. Otherwise they would just state that the law is unjust. Not because it goes against their Christian beliefs.

I see that you are taking a hardline position on this( it is very obvious). That is fine, I feel that it is interfering with your logical ability to se what it really is. Therefore this will be my last post on the subject.

Have a wonderful day fellow ATS member.



posted on Oct, 28 2012 @ 03:22 AM
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Originally posted by FreebirdGirl

[.

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
reply to post by FreebirdGirl
 


Why are you confusing what I think an employer SHOULD do and what I believe an employer should be FORCED to do?

I think we should all tell the truth and not lie, I am not for lying being a criminal offense.

I love the fact I get free massages, I don't think it should be required.

I am sorry you can not differentiate between the two.




Yes, if it is elective it should not be MANDATORY to be covered.

This is your post. Is it not?

Are you not saying all elective surgery should not be covered?

Where am I lying ? Do you know the definition of elective surgery? Look it up?
The surgery I had is called TMJ arthroplasty and it is considered elective. I hope that companies who do not provide this "elective coverage" would be forced to provide insurance that could mean the difference in life, death or quality of life. Elective surgery can save lives.

Deny Ignorance

I did not claim you were lying, you missed the point of that. It was to say there is a difference between what would be nice to have happen, and what the government should stick their nose in. If the surgery is required to save your life it is medically necessary, and thus not elective.

Let me try one more time. I have never said elective surgery should NOT be covered. I said companies should not be FORCED to cover them. It should be at their discretion. I personally would prefer they did, I do not think I or anyone else can FORCE them to.





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