Hillsborough files released: LIVE coverage

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by misterbungle
reply to post by budski

 

Well said mate. Problem is; on this site and I guess any forum, is that people spout rubbish without knowing all the facts. Some people hear/read one news report and think they know everything they need to know to come on here and degrade the lives of 96 humans who only wanted to see a football match. And I guess some just like trolling.

On a positive note, there is a campaign to get 'You'll Never Walk Alone' (it's Liverpool FC's anthem for those of you who know nothing about the story) to number 1 in the UK charts. ATM it's number 2 on the Itunes chart.
It's only 99p and Gerry Marsden has said he will donate all monies to the Hillsborough charity.
Come on peeps get your wallets out!!!

Sorry, but facts don't lie. This has never happened at an American Football, baseball, hockey, or basketball game. This is a problem that is unique to soccer fans, due to their obsession with the game. We don't rely on a bunch of cops to help us out with something as simple as entering a stadium and getting a seat... 96 peaople died, I get it, but the police and stadium officials aren't the only ones to blame (i think the fans are partially to blame). Sorry it doesn't go along with what you think, it's just my opinion...

Enlighten us further. What is your opinion on why none of the fans in the Leppings Land end of the ground could find a seat?

reply to post by mirageman


There were no seats at the time. It was standing room only which was fenced off to prevent pitch invasions and/or similar acts of aggression.

Since this event, all stadiums now have seating in order to control exactly how many people are in any given area.
Once the tickets are sold for each seat, then it's full and there are no fences any more.

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by mirageman

 

There were no seats at the time. It was standing room only which was fenced off to prevent pitch invasions and/or similar acts of aggression.

Since this event, all stadiums now have seating in order to control exactly how many people are in any given area.
Once the tickets are sold for each seat, then it's full and there are no fences any more.

I know that mate I am a Liverpool supporter who happened to be around in 1989. Unfortunately you've stolen the bait.

I wanted to know why our North American friend thought the supporters were partially to blame and mentioned the seating as he/she seems to have nothing but a very misguided opinion on something he/she knows very little about.

Originally posted by mirageman

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by mirageman

 

There were no seats at the time. It was standing room only which was fenced off to prevent pitch invasions and/or similar acts of aggression.

Since this event, all stadiums now have seating in order to control exactly how many people are in any given area.
Once the tickets are sold for each seat, then it's full and there are no fences any more.

I know that mate I am a Liverpool supporter who happened to be around in 1989. Unfortunately you've stolen the bait.

I wanted to know why our North American friend thought the supporters were partially to blame and mentioned the seating as he/she seems to have nothing but a very misguided opinion on something he/she knows very little about.

Unfortunately, I did know about that, and I don't think it's an excuse. We have plenty of sporting events that have standing room only seating, and crushes still don't happen...

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by mirageman

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by mirageman

 

There were no seats at the time. It was standing room only which was fenced off to prevent pitch invasions and/or similar acts of aggression.

Since this event, all stadiums now have seating in order to control exactly how many people are in any given area.
Once the tickets are sold for each seat, then it's full and there are no fences any more.

I know that mate I am a Liverpool supporter who happened to be around in 1989. Unfortunately you've stolen the bait.

I wanted to know why our North American friend thought the supporters were partially to blame and mentioned the seating as he/she seems to have nothing but a very misguided opinion on something he/she knows very little about.

Unfortunately, I did know about that, and I don't think it's an excuse. We have plenty of sporting events that have standing room only seating, and crushes still don't happen...

Fair enough.

I think after Hillsborough, English football learned a lot from how America on handling large crowds and sporting events. One thing being that the stadia are now very fan friendly and there is a lower profile police presence. The police attitude is much better as well.

But the fact is that the senior police officers made errors of judgement on the day and then covered up all traces of their failure to carry out their care of duty to the public's safety by altering their own officers statements and telling the media that Liverpool fans kicked down an exit gate (which they didn't).

Whilst football hooligans (I refuse to call them fans) have been responsible for chaos, violence and even death at games down the years across the world, Hillsborough 1989 was not one of them. The recently released papers have proved that.

You are of course entitled to air your opinion and I will defend your right to do so. But my opinion differs somewhat from yours based on the lack of (newly released) evidence that the crowd were in any way responsible for the deaths of the 96 and the words of people I know who were there at the game.

reply to post by AngryAlien


I think you really need to get your hands on a copy of this report, read it, and then come back here and look at every single post you have made on this thread... just an idea.

We don't rely on a bunch of cops to help us out with something as simple as entering a stadium and getting a seat...

reply to post by AngryAlien


getting a seat is the big difference here. something that can only be said in England after this disaster and as a result of it. if Americans had seats back then instead of standing it is no wonder it never happens in America.

having a seat made a BIG difference. no seating leftover?, your not getting in and no overcrowding can occur.

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by misterbungle
reply to post by budski

 

Well said mate. Problem is; on this site and I guess any forum, is that people spout rubbish without knowing all the facts. Some people hear/read one news report and think they know everything they need to know to come on here and degrade the lives of 96 humans who only wanted to see a football match. And I guess some just like trolling.

On a positive note, there is a campaign to get 'You'll Never Walk Alone' (it's Liverpool FC's anthem for those of you who know nothing about the story) to number 1 in the UK charts. ATM it's number 2 on the Itunes chart.
It's only 99p and Gerry Marsden has said he will donate all monies to the Hillsborough charity.
Come on peeps get your wallets out!!!

Sorry, but facts don't lie. This has never happened at an American Football, baseball, hockey, or basketball game. This is a problem that is unique to soccer fans, due to their obsession with the game. We don't rely on a bunch of cops to help us out with something as simple as entering a stadium and getting a seat... 96 peaople died, I get it, but the police and stadium officials aren't the only ones to blame (i think the fans are partially to blame). Sorry it doesn't go along with what you think, it's just my opinion...

No, you just need help going to the movies.........or to school............or to university...........should i go on?

Alex Thompson, a journalist I've really grown to respect and admire over the past year (check out his blog) here getting himself in a melee with former Sun editor Kelvin Mackenzie for answers earlier today:

Originally posted by Flavian

No, you just need help going to the movies.........or to school............or to university...........should i go on?

And that's relevant to the discussion how? I see a big difference between shootings/killings commited by 1 person at a movie theatre or other place. You'd have a point if you could direct me to some sources that say there are regular crush events at schools...

first things first i have huge sympathy for the families of the 96 and for all the law abiding liverpool and forest fans who will have been traumatised by the terrible tragedy.

however i can't accept the finding of the report that liverpool fans were not to blame in any way for the events that occurred that day for a number of reasons. the key one being that it was liverpool fans after all who created the situation which meant that a gate was needed to be opened to relieve pressure on people massing by the turnstyles, it is also accepted fat that a number of fans that day were ticketless which for me is key to the whole thing (despite what the taylor report has claimed).

now i think a certain front page headline from a certain newspaper has caused almost all of this mess that is still continuing to this day and means the full unabridged truth will probably never come out. as this is a conspiracy theory website i think i'm within my rights to express these thoughts here, if i upset anyone i apologise but i feel i need to get it off my chest somewhere.

the make up of the supposed independent panel was far from independent, it had a very heavy bias in favour of liverpool fc and the city of liverpool. this report has no credibility whatsoever in criminal or even civil law and appears to have completely ignored a few key earlier incidents to instead focus on events after which any liverpool fans could be held to blame. the reasons for this may become clear and be 100% valid in the eyes of many however.

the police were forced into a position where they made the poor decision by fans who were ticketless and arrived late (i know people bring the crash on the motorway up as an excuse for the lateness). liverpool fans had a reputation that survives to this day for turning up and trying to storm turnstyles or entrances to gain access to stadia without tickets, the last high profile documented incident of this was in the 2007 champions league final.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

"We know what happened in Athens, and Liverpool fans were the cause of most of the trouble there.
"There have been 25 incidents involving Liverpool fans away from home since 2003 and these are in the report - most teams' supporters do not cause any trouble at all."
Liverpool have sent their own report to UEFA complaining about lax security measures at the final. Many supporters with forged tickets or no tickets at all managed to gain access to the stadium.
Gaillard added: "You must ask yourself why at the same match, with the same conditions, there was no trouble with the Milan fans - only the Liverpool fans."

this remember is how the fans continue to behave to this day after we have entered a so called civilized age of football support, this does not however mean that footballs are all scum.

if as logical, sensible and completely neutral onlookers we can see that liverpool fans clearly played a part that day why is the government choosing to brush this aside and is it right that they do so?

was the behaviour of the police and certain media outlets so poor that it means we no longer need the whole truth and only the parts that quench our first for 'justice'?

part of me thinks that yes, we should do whatever to make sure that the families who lost loved ones that day do feel like they get the answers they have been looking for, and it appears that to a certain extent they have begun to get that. i just don't know if this version of it will be enough in the long run, i think to feel fully at peace the whole truth needs to come out warts and all no matter how painful that is.

it is honestly not my intention to try and upset or wind anyone up but what i have heard so far i just can't take as the full truth. no matter how horrible the police have been in the cover up i can't help but think that was a moment of panic that got out of hand rather than malicious attempts to blame fans and hide the truth.

so what am i trying to say here? it's not that i'm blaming the liverpool fans for the tragedy, it's just that i think they were one of the clear causes and to say they aren't is almost as absurd as saying they were 100% to blame. something big has clearly been exposed in terms of the cover up but i don't think that means that all liverpool fans should be given a free pass just because certain parts of the police force acted in a very undesirable way.

i want to know the truth, but not just some of it, i feel the people fighting for justice need the entire truth and not just what they want to hear. do the people that died that day not deserve that at least?

are we getting a liverpool freindly version of the truth to make this easier for the families of the 96 and appease the city liverpool, is this a political point scoring exercise by the tory government to win some favour on merseyside? part of me suspects it is.

There's a difference between finding the truth and finding blame. You seemed to have ignored Michel Platini's response after reading the same report in which he said Liverpool fans were not the worst in Europe, and evidence of riots around Europe supports that.

Platini rebukes Liverpool being worst in Europe

The fact is that in any large amount of people there will be some who are prepared to test the rules, but the crowd they're part of should not be held accountable for the behaviour of the minority. Sure, if any evidence is ever found of fans not having tickets, then those fans should be held accountible. But on the day it is where the police come in, to control for this and deal with those people. It should have been the simple case that if people didn't have a ticket they wouldn't get in, in stead an exit gate was opened for everyone to just stroll in, that is hugely incompetent. The crowd entering the stadium didn't realise they would be part of a crush until there was no way out.

Anyone thinking it's safer in America, seems like you could get shot for attending a sports event these days.

American Sports Violence

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by Flavian

No, you just need help going to the movies.........or to school............or to university...........should i go on?

And that's relevant to the discussion how? I see a big difference between shootings/killings commited by 1 person at a movie theatre or other place. You'd have a point if you could direct me to some sources that say there are regular crush events at schools...

It is totally relevent as i was simply demonstrating right back at you that anyone can make stupid asinine comments about emotive issues. Obviously you cannot blame people for being shot by a random loon, same as you cannot blame being crushed to death due to failings in Policing and safety procedures - as has now being categorically proved.

Originally posted by Flavian

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by Flavian

No, you just need help going to the movies.........or to school............or to university...........should i go on?

And that's relevant to the discussion how? I see a big difference between shootings/killings commited by 1 person at a movie theatre or other place. You'd have a point if you could direct me to some sources that say there are regular crush events at schools...

It is totally relevent as i was simply demonstrating right back at you that anyone can make stupid asinine comments about emotive issues. Obviously you cannot blame people for being shot by a random loon, same as you cannot blame being crushed to death due to failings in Policing and safety procedures - as has now being categorically proved.

I still see no connection, you can't see that people trampling and crushing other people is a problem. Got it. The only difference is my comments have relevence, and your's seem to have zero relevence. While the policing and safety procedures contributed to the problem, no one would have been crushed if the fans were a bit more civil. No one was ever forced by the police to enter the stadium and cram into the 1 pen. People have a choice in life, and these fans chose to pack themselves into a fenced pen until their fellow fans died...

Originally posted by twfau

Anyone thinking it's safer in America, seems like you could get shot for attending a sports event these days.

American Sports Violence

But that's the fault of the cops and the stadium administration for not protecting the fans, right? It's not the fans fault...

reply to post by bates


You can't accept the findings?
Read the Taylor Report and the HIP Report.

They both state quite clearly what happened.
Coaches carrying Liverpool supporters were delayed by roadworks on 2 of the main trans Pennine roads. They were further delayed by random Police checks, checking for ticketless fans, as well as this, previously there had been 3 special trains laid on for fans from Liverpool (1988) in 1989 there was one.
The initial build up of people started behind the first perimeter that was a standard set up in those days, and then more pressure built outside the turnstyles which were found to be completely inadequate for the number of fans given tickets to the Leppings Lane end.
It was at this point, that fearing a crush Gate C was opened and thousands of fans poured through with no direction as to where they should go. The tunnel leading into the Leppings Lane end had a gradient of 1 in 6, much steeper than the "Green Guide" maximum (Green Guide is for Stadium Safety, and is part of the Safety Certificate that Sheffield Wednesday had not held for 10 years by this time, with the FA having full knowledge of this.

So, imagine the scene: You are in a crowd, excited, anxious, wanting to get into the game. A gate is opened through which fans pour to escape the crush outside, and with no direction to the empty pens, make for the central concourse, which is extremely steep. Those already inside are pushed further forwards, and those coming in behind are in turn pushed as fans flow down the steep concourse.
Crucially, at this point, a crush barrier collapsed (The Safety Certificate had not been granted in part due to the inadequacy of crush barriers) and people fell forwards, further crushing those at the front.
There was plenty of room in the side pens, and Leppings Lane was NOT overcrowded, only the central pens were, BUT unlike previous years, the Police and Stewards failed to usher fans to the side pens as Gate C was opened.

This was also not the first time this had happened at Hillsborough, similar incidents had occurred frequently over 40 years, and in particular a disaster was only narrowly averted in 1981 when a Police officer noticed Spurs fans being crushed and had the good sense to open a side gate. Over 500 fans watched the game sat behind the goal line as a result.
In 1988 when Liverpool played the FA Cup semi final at Hillsborough, many fans wrote to the FA saying it was a disaster waiting to happen.
The safety of the ground was not only compromised, is was totally inadequate, and perhaps more to the point, this had been known for many years by the Police, SWFC, Sheffield City Council, and the FA.

So you can now carry out an experiment. Find a 1:6 gradient and walk down it with perhaps ten other people around you.
Then try and stop, turn around and force your way back through.
Now multiply that effect by 100 and you'll have an idea of one of the problems.

The delays certainly contributed, but Police numbers were down on previous years, and the filtering process which allowed a steady stream rather than a rush of people was not in place.
Fans were a bit late through no fault of their own, and although some doubtless didn't have tickets, the numbers were not high enough to cause the crush, because the pens were still under capacity, apart from the central pens which fans should have been directed away from.

Nor were many of the fans "falling down drunk". Sure a few had a couple of beers before the match (those who had travelled independantly i.e. not on coaches or trains) but the crowd was actually very well behaved.

According to both the Taylor Report and the HIP report no blame lay with the fans on that day, instead a series of Authorities failed them in nearly every way possible, and it has been stated by both reports that lives were saved due to the actions of fans.
The part that truly sickens LFC fans however, is that up 41 lives could potentially have been saved if the Authorities had acted correctly AFTER the crush had happened.

As I stated at the beginning of this post, read the Taylor Report and the HIP report. Both are independant reports written by people with no agenda except finding the truth, contrary to Police reports which sought only to cover up their own culpability.

In fact, if you feel you "can't accept" the findings of the reports I suggest you write to the HIP outlining your own findings, and why you disagree.
I'm sure that a panel consisting of Professors, Legal experts, a Bishop, top investigative journalists etc will be very interested to read the views of a layman, after they studied 450,000 documents and produced a document covering nearly 400 pages over a 20 month period, rather than reading a thread and deciding that someone with little knowledge of the subject "disagrees".

reply to post by budski


as i said i can't accept the findings of the latest report in terms of the amount of blame given to liverpool simply because the panel was far too emotionally attached to the whole thing. when you have people who have already released television shows and books from a very clear point of view it is very difficult to take what they take as the full truth.

the findings from the 'independent' panel would not stand up in any court simply because of many of the memebers on it were very biased.

i've not once blamed the fans entirely for the tragedy, but i simply can't absolve the fans of all blame though. logically i find it impossible to do so given the evidence that is available for all to see. just because something isn't in this latest report (if you bother to read the report you'll find it is very light on detail before and up to the start of the crush) it doesn't mean it hasn't played a part in the tragedy.

what this report concentrates on, and a lot of people with think rightly so, is the inadequacies of the police during the incident and the criminal behaviour (i agree that the whole cover up thing is a criminal act) of the south yorkshire police, certain politicians and certain newspapers afterwards.

i'm going to stand by my reasoning that the idea of liverpool fans being 100% blameless is absurd as to blame them for the incident 100%.

i fear too many people look at the whole incident subjectively, emotions have probably started to govern reason which is a shame when people are trying to find out the truth.

by adding a voice against this report i just hope to add a bit of balance.

no one would have been crushed if the fans were a bit more civil. No one was ever forced by the police to enter the stadium and cram into the 1 pen. People have a choice in life, and these fans chose to pack themselves into a fenced pen until their fellow fans died...

reply to post by AngryAlien


so your saying the doors should be left open all across American sports stadiums and arena's and it is the peoples choice whether to enter or not, you are saying nobody is responsible for how many people should be let in and they can pack stadiums/arena's as much as they like and if it becomes overcrowded and a crush occurs as a result, then it is peoples own fault for entering after paying or already having a ticket.

Originally posted by lifeform11

so your saying the doors should be left open all across American sports stadiums and arena's and it is the peoples choice whether to enter or not, you are saying nobody is responsible for how many people should be let in and they can pack stadiums/arena's as much as they like and if it becomes overcrowded and a crush occurs as a result, then it is peoples own fault for entering after paying or already having a ticket.

Essentially, yes.

We know the capacity of our stadiums and only sell enough tickets to safely accomidate people. If people cram themselves into a place, on their own accord, they are at fault. Have some civility, don't push or shove, and calmly walk into the stadium...

reply to post by bates


Absolute, complete and utter rubbish, and I will outline my reasons why.
The first thing is that these findings echo those of Lord Justice Taylor in his interim report into the disaster. This panel looked at the cover ups.
Lets examine the panel member shall we?

The Right Reverend James Jones, the Bishop of Liverpool - brought in as a sort of go between and to liaise with the families of the bereaved.

Raju Bhatt - a lawyer who specialises in cases dealing with the authorities, particularly those where people have died in custody. No ties to LFC or the City.

Christine Gifford - a Government advisor on the disclosure of sensitive information who has worked with/for the Met for 20 years. No ties to LFC or the City.

Katy Jones - an investigative journalist for over 20 years, has produced a number of other award-winning factual dramas, including Tony Marchant’s 2008 Iraq film, The Mark of Cain; Jimmy McGovern’s Sunday, about the events of Bloody Sunday; Simon Beaufoy’s 9/11 feature film Yasmin; and Neil McKay’s RIP Boy about the murder of Zahid Mubarek at Feltham Young Offenders Institution.

Katy Jones also spent five years working on the Granada current affairs series World in Action, where her investigations led to several inquiries such as the 1990 Pin Down Inquiry into child abuse in Staffordshire, headed by Allan Levy QC.
Again, no ties to LFC or the city except in the most tenuous way, as she advised on the McGovern film after reading ONLY the Taylor report and interviewing thousands of witnesses.

Dr Bill Kirkup, CBE - A Public Health specialist. No ties to LFC or the City.

Paul Leighton, CBE QPM - ex Deputy Chief Constable of the Police Service of Northern Ireland. No ties to LFC or the City.

Professor Phil Scraton (Chief author of the report) - Professor of Criminology in the Institute of Criminology and Criminal Justice, School of Law, Queen's University, Belfast, where he is Director of the Childhood, Transition and Social Justice Initiative. He has held recent visiting scholarships at Monash University, Melbourne and Sydney Law School, University of Sydney.
His primary research includes:

- controversial deaths and institutional responsibility
- the rights of the bereaved and survivors in the aftermath of disasters

Previously Director of the Hillsborough Project, Phil established the Nuffield-funded Disasters' Research Archive, the Economic Social Research Council-funded seminar series on disasters and their aftermath and the Home Office Emergency Planning-funded research into responses to disasters and their aftermath

Peter Sissons - needs no introduction. Born in Liverpool.

Sarah Tyacke, CBE - a Distinguished Senior Research Fellow, School of Advanced Study, University of London, and Chair of the International Records Management Trust. She was Keeper of Public Records and Historical Manuscripts Commissioner for the UK government and Chief Executive of The National Archives of England and Wales from 1992-2005 and was responsible for the establishment of The National Archives in 2003. No ties to LFC or the City.

So your assertion is completely wrong.

It also seems that your main reason for posting is to apportion blame onto innocent victims of incompetence and a cover up.

Once again, The Taylor Report stated quite clearly that there was no blame attached to the fans who travelled that day. The HIP Report not only confirms the findings of the Taylor report, but also exposes the depth and scope of the subsequent cover up.
Now, which of those reports do you have a problem with, what proof do you offer to support your assertions, what qualifies you to dispute the findings of not one but TWO independant reports, and how much documented evidence do you have to support your assertions?

You see, I sense an agenda in your posts, much like the agenda which lead to 23 years of lies, cover ups and deceit.
So, show your proof, your documentation and your qualifications which place you above some of the pre-eminent minds in the land for this type of case, or do one, because your continued insistence that the fans were to blame, going so far as to question the integrity of people highly respected in their fields smacks of the same agenda which caused this to be covered up for 23 years.