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Hillsborough files released: LIVE coverage

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posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by AngryAlien
reply to post by marvinthemartian
 


Yes, but that is still FAR more than any other sporting event in the world! The police may have messed up, some, but the fans should shoulder some of the blame as well! Footballers are generally an unruly bunch and crushes are not uncommon...

uefa-cup-bets.com...


Did you read the link?
The top 2 causes of death were stadium collapse and heart attack!
How is this relevant ?




posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:34 PM
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reply to post by jeantherapy
 


If there were no police there then someone else would have been paid to make the same decisions that senior police officers were.
If they had made the same criminally negligent decision that led to the crush then they would have been held accountable in a court of law.

The police officers responsible then compounded the issue by freezing and then panicking and refusing to let medical assistance into the ground thus contributing to the possible needless death of up to 41 people.
Again, if a civilian had been responsible for such poor decision making they would have been held legally responsible.

Afterwards, the police and their political and media cronies then set about fabricating evidence and statements in a deliberate attempt to falsely blame the fans themselves and cover up the real facts.
Yet again, if civilian managers etc had been responsible for deliberately misleading, lying and falsifying evidence then they would have been charged appropriately.

That is the very essence of the case.

With all due respect, it is blatantly obvious that you have no understanding of UK football and the culture and processes surrounding it etc.

It's quite telling that practically every single English and British football supporter, regardless of personal club affiliation, supports the Justice for the 96 campaign.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by budski
Worse than that, fans who managed to climb the barrier were pushed back in, as were some who managed to get through an open gate.
The police even assaulted fans who were ripping up advertising boards to use as stretchers.

I must stress that this was a minority of officers, because for the most part, junior officers were of as much help as they could be on that horrible day.


Yes, but that was their job that day. To keep people off the pitch and to prevent them from destroying the stadium.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by AngryAlien
reply to post by marvinthemartian
 


Yes, but that is still FAR more than any other sporting event in the world! The police may have messed up, some, but the fans should shoulder some of the blame as well! Footballers are generally an unruly bunch and crushes are not uncommon...

uefa-cup-bets.com...



On talksport by a witness today said

"I was screaming!! I was screaming at police.. that if THAT gate opened I could be dead. That part of the stadium was already full (and locked in by a cage for no escape). But they still opened the gate and then I was fighting for my life!."



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:41 PM
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reply to post by Extralien
 


Your right, and what happened should be brought out into the open for investigation of any wrongdoing.

I just find that too much is swept under the carpet after a brief official enquiry, be that police, government or some other official body.

I remember listening to the reports and reading in the papers about it, and I am amazed at how gullible I was to accept what was said. Mind you, football at that time did have a bit of a bad reputation for crowd trouble. Did not that ground have a problem the year before?



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by marvinthemartian

Originally posted by AngryAlien
reply to post by marvinthemartian
 


Yes, but that is still FAR more than any other sporting event in the world! The police may have messed up, some, but the fans should shoulder some of the blame as well! Footballers are generally an unruly bunch and crushes are not uncommon...

uefa-cup-bets.com...


Did you read the link?
The top 2 causes of death were stadium collapse and heart attack!
How is this relevant ?


Their supporting video evidence on that link was a video of riots, not collapses or coronary events.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
With all due respect, it is blatantly obvious that you have no understanding of UK football and the culture and processes surrounding it etc.


My thoughts also. People shouldn’t comment on things they know absolutely nothing about. Especially on such a tragedy.

Prime Minister statement

"

The Prime Minister has made a "proper and profound" apology to relatives of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster following the publication of evidence relating to the events of April 1989.

Here are the key points from Mr Cameron's official statement to the House of Commons:

"The public inquiry chaired by Lord Justice Taylor didn't have access to all the documents that have since become available, it didn't properly examine the response of the emergency services, it was followed by a deeply controversial inquest, and by a media version of events that sought to blame the fans."

"There is a trail of new documents which show the extent to which the safety of the crowd at Hillsborough was compromised at every level. The ground failed to meet minimum standards and the deficiencies were well known."

"There was a delay from the emergency services when people were being crushed and killed."

"The families have long believed that some of the authorities attempted to create a completely unjust account of events that sought to blame the fans for what happened. The families were right."

"The evidence includes briefings to the media, and attempts by the Police to change the record of events."

"Several newspapers reported false allegations that fans were drunk and violent and stole from the dead. This was clearly wrong and caused huge offence, distress and hurt."

"164 statements were significantly amended - and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation - including its lack of leadership."

"There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died in an attempt "to impugn the reputations of the deceased".

"The Panel found no evidence of any government trying to conceal the truth. But governments then and since have simply not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans."

"The Coroner asserted that beyond 3.15pm there were no actions that could have changed the fate of the victims. But the Panel have found that 28 did not have obstruction of blood circulation and 31 had evidence of heart and lungs continuing to function after the crush.

This means that individuals in those groups could have had potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15pm in contrast to the findings of the Coroner and a subsequent Judicial Review.

And the Panel states clearly that "it is highly likely that what happened to those individuals after 3.15pm was significant" in determining whether they died."

"It is for the Attorney General to decide whether to apply to the High Court to quash the original inquest and seek a new one."

"With the weight of the new evidence in this Report, it is right for me today as Prime Minister to make a proper apology to the families of the 96 for all they have suffered over the past 23 years. These families have suffered a double injustice."

"On behalf of the Government - and indeed our country - I am profoundly sorry for this double injustice that has been left uncorrected for so long."

"Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans were not the cause of the disaster."



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:48 PM
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Originally posted by jeantherapy

Originally posted by marvinthemartian

Originally posted by AngryAlien
reply to post by marvinthemartian
 


Yes, but that is still FAR more than any other sporting event in the world! The police may have messed up, some, but the fans should shoulder some of the blame as well! Footballers are generally an unruly bunch and crushes are not uncommon...

uefa-cup-bets.com...


Did you read the link?
The top 2 causes of death were stadium collapse and heart attack!
How is this relevant ?


Their supporting video evidence on that link was a video of riots, not collapses or coronary events.



So what exactly is your understanding of Hillsborough 1989?



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by jeantherapy
 


If they had made the same criminally negligent decision that led to the crush then they would have been held accountable in a court of law.

Again, if a civilian had been responsible for such poor decision making they would have been held legally responsible.

Yet again, if civilian managers etc had been responsible for deliberately misleading, lying and falsifying evidence then they would have been charged appropriately.



You make a strong case for my point about hiring private security instead of relying on public policing. They would have at the very least been accountable in the court, unlike the police force. But the police continue failing because we allow them to. www.dailymail.co.uk...



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by jeantherapy
 


Please review your ideas about private security doing any better..
for example;
G4S failed to understand size of Olympic security job

The largst private security firm in the world made a major mess of a major event..

Yet they still want full payment...
Security firm G4S expects full Olympic Games payment

Do we really have to go down that route?
I do not think so..

I dread to imagine ...



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:04 PM
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Once again government is covering up the truth for convenience. I don't know why people, government and corporations think they can lie, lie and lie some more yet remain credible?

I vaguely remember when this happened and they blamed the fans while it was clearly a case of failed policing and the corporate sponsors who knew the risks but failed to address them.

Just like the US and many other governments who continually lie to segments of their population for political convenience it is a world of governments without moral authority!



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by jeantherapy
 


I fail to see how a private police force would have ensured that the right decisions were made in the first place or have prevented the subsequent falsification of the facts etc.

The British police are at least as accountable and answerable to UK Law as any private company.

And the links between senior management of private companies and media and politicians is just as incestuous as it is with senior police officers.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:07 PM
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Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by budski
Worse than that, fans who managed to climb the barrier were pushed back in, as were some who managed to get through an open gate.
The police even assaulted fans who were ripping up advertising boards to use as stretchers.

I must stress that this was a minority of officers, because for the most part, junior officers were of as much help as they could be on that horrible day.


Yes, but that was their job that day. To keep people off the pitch and to prevent them from destroying the stadium.


Completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Their job was, and is, to ensure public safety at large events.

Consider the fact that people were literally dying in front of their eyes, that there were very few police radios linked to the control room (1 section had only 1 radio, held by the section sergeant) and more importantly, anyone with a pair of eyes could see that this was no riot.
For christs sake, they could see people being pulled onto the upper stand to escape the crush.
Does this look like a riot to you?



or this?



or this?



"I vas just obeying orders"
Seems I've heard that one before.
edit on 12/9/2012 by budski because: (no reason given)
edit on 12/9/2012 by budski because: to add pics



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by budski

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by budski
Worse than that, fans who managed to climb the barrier were pushed back in, as were some who managed to get through an open gate.
The police even assaulted fans who were ripping up advertising boards to use as stretchers.

I must stress that this was a minority of officers, because for the most part, junior officers were of as much help as they could be on that horrible day.


Yes, but that was their job that day. To keep people off the pitch and to prevent them from destroying the stadium.


Completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Their job was, and is, to ensure public safety at large events.

Consider the fact that people were literally dying in front of their eyes, that there were very few police radios linked to the control room (1 section had only 1 radio, held by the section sergeant) and more importantly, anyone with a pair of eyes could see that this was no riot.
"I vas just obeying orders"
Seems I've heard that one before.


Like I said, you can't have it both ways. You either want them to protect the fans on the other side of the stadium from harm, or you don't. Their job that day was to keep people off the pitch and away from the other fans and players. It was not their job to assess whether this was a riot, fight, or crush. It WAS the leaderships decision, but the average officer had little they could do in the absence of orders.

You're putting them in an unwinnable situation, that doesn't make sense. Cops are assigned specific roles at these events, and generally stick to those roles, unless ordered to do something else...
edit on 12-9-2012 by AngryAlien because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:16 PM
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Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by budski

Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by budski
Worse than that, fans who managed to climb the barrier were pushed back in, as were some who managed to get through an open gate.
The police even assaulted fans who were ripping up advertising boards to use as stretchers.

I must stress that this was a minority of officers, because for the most part, junior officers were of as much help as they could be on that horrible day.


Yes, but that was their job that day. To keep people off the pitch and to prevent them from destroying the stadium.


Completely, totally and utterly wrong.

Their job was, and is, to ensure public safety at large events.

Consider the fact that people were literally dying in front of their eyes, that there were very few police radios linked to the control room (1 section had only 1 radio, held by the section sergeant) and more importantly, anyone with a pair of eyes could see that this was no riot.
"I vas just obeying orders"
Seems I've heard that one before.


Like I said, you can't have it both ways. You either want them to protect the fans on the other side of the stadium from harm, or you don't. Their job that day was to keep people off the pitch and away from the other fans and players. It was not their job to assess whether this was a riot, fight, or crush. You're putting them in an unwinnable situation, that doesn't make sense. Cops are assigned specific roles at these events, and generally stick to those roles...


Their job, was to ensure public safety, because they have a duty of care which they failed to fulfill

And yes, it was their job to assess the situation, that is part of a police officers training.

In fact, why do you think that 164 statements taken from Police officers that day were highly critical of leadership, before they were ordered to be re-written?



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:20 PM
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Originally posted by budski

Their job, was to ensure public safety, because they have a duty of care which they failed to fulfill

And yes, it was their job to assess the situation, that is part of a police officers training.

In fact, why do you think that 164 statements taken from Police officers that day were highly critical of leadership, before they were ordered to be re-written?


I actually edited my above while you were replying.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by AngryAlien

Originally posted by budski

Their job, was to ensure public safety, because they have a duty of care which they failed to fulfill

And yes, it was their job to assess the situation, that is part of a police officers training.

In fact, why do you think that 164 statements taken from Police officers that day were highly critical of leadership, before they were ordered to be re-written?


I actually edited my above while you were replying.


I don't actually care, because you either have no understanding of the events of that day, or you are being deliberately obtuse.

Either way, I am not going to disrespect the memory of the 96 by feeding a troll.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:28 PM
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Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by jeantherapy
 


Please review your ideas about private security doing any better..
for example;
G4S failed to understand size of Olympic security job

The largst private security firm in the world made a major mess of a major event..

Yet they still want full payment...
Security firm G4S expects full Olympic Games payment

Do we really have to go down that route?
I do not think so..

I dread to imagine ...


How many people died at the Olympics?



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by AngryAlien
 




It was not their job to assess whether this was a riot, fight, or crush. It WAS the leaderships decision, but the average officer had little they could do in the absence of orders.


Sorry, but a police officers primary duty on such an occassion is indeed to ensure public safety - sitting back and watching people be crushed to death is not ensuring public safety!

Police officers are trained to assess each individual situation and to use their own discretion.

Notts Forest fans from the opposite end tried to offer assisstance to those being crushed as it was so obvious what was going on but police officers stopped them from doing so and even forced some fans back onto the terraces - that's not just negligence but at least manslaughter possibly murder in my book.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by AngryAlien
Yes, but that was their job that day. To keep people off the pitch and to prevent them from destroying the stadium.


Yes, but it was also their job to keep their eyes open and use them. And perhaps spot the distress on the faces of the dying.






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