Hillsborough files released: LIVE coverage

reply to post by AngryCymraeg


Why are you incapable of doing something which is routine to almost every child I know? (use your mind to imagine a possible scenario that hasn't happened) Just try to imagine for a moment that a sporting event can occur without police presence. Here we are, 1989, Hillsborough, the match is about to start and there are no police anywhere to be seen. The fans are starting to file in to see the match. What happens next?

reply to post by jeantherapy


I would love you hitting the 'Log Out' button to be the next thing that happens.

Nothing will happen to any of the evil pieces of # that covered up this tragedy to save their own asses. Even if they are taken to court, they will get off on some technicality. Everyone knows the police are above the law. Absolute scum, they need to die as slowly and painfully as the people who were crushed. I hope they live in fear for their lives for the rest of their days. But this is a screwed up world we live in, they will be protected at the tax payers expense, and if anything does happen to them, you can bet the book will be thrown at those who do it.

Originally posted by jeantherapy
reply to post by AngryCymraeg

 

Why are you incapable of doing something which is routine to almost every child I know? (use your mind to imagine a possible scenario that hasn't happened) Just try to imagine for a moment that a sporting event can occur without police presence. Here we are, 1989, Hillsborough, the match is about to start and there are no police anywhere to be seen. The fans are starting to file in to see the match. What happens next?

The match is promptly cancelled, because there are no police present! Why can you not understand this? It's not a question of a lack of imagination, it's a question of basic reality.

Originally posted by jeantherapy
What I am saying is this: If the police were not there then nobody would have died. Does somebody want to disagree with that?

I disagree with it..

If it were not the police, then it would have been the ground stewards..
If not them, then it would have been a free for all.. and more would have died..

Regardless of who opened the gate to let those people in, a serious error has been made by the police at the time and since then. Not one officer has stepped forwards to uphold his or her duty as an officer and speak out about what really happened and how the story was changed to suit the force.

I'm sure we could all argue this with you again and again... but that is not going to happen.

The police were and still are in the wrong, they have committed crimes and should be held responsible for it.

reply to post by marvinthemartian


Yes, but that is still FAR more than any other sporting event in the world! The police may have messed up, some, but the fans should shoulder some of the blame as well! Footballers are generally an unruly bunch and crushes are not uncommon...

uefa-cup-bets.com...

Originally posted by jeantherapy

Originally posted by mirageman

Originally posted by jeantherapy

Originally posted by neformore
Folks....

Don't feed the troll.

If I were a moderator I might delete that off topic post. Care to give me your input as regards how things might have turned out if there had been ZERO police presence there that day?

The police were paid to maintain the safety of the public at a football match. It is a job many other police forces had carried out with great success, except on very rare occasions, at 100s of football grounds every week throughout Britain. They have done ever since.

The senior police officers failed that day and then tried to cover up their incompetence.

So your question is as irrelevant as asking what if there were no law enforcement agencies anywhere. Which is plain stupid. On this occasion the police failed to carry out the duties to a standard required.

My question is not irrelevant, this entire matter hinges upon the fact that police were present! I am asking you to consider the possible outcome if there were no police there. Why is everyone unwilling to consider the outcome if there had been no police? Afraid of what the answer might be?

Let's put it another way what if the police had actually done the job they were paid to do and maintain public safety and not opened an exit gate?

What if they'd have allowed the ambulances and medical care to enter the ground instead of keeping them outside?

What if the media (the Sun) hadn't have been so quick to blame drunken supporters for killing and then robbing the dead supporters or even admitting their mistake and produced a headline "WE LIED" the day after the original story?

So this is not a question of what if there were no police because your question is like a broken pencil.

I wrote this thread on the 21st anniversary:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Little did I know that the Truth would come much more quickly than even the most optimistic could have predicted.

This is but one step on the road to Justice, but it is a significant step and we can only hope that new inquests will be ordered, at the very least.

reply to post by jeantherapy


Your question's a bit clearer now. The first time round it seemed as if you were thinking it would be WORSE if not for the police.

If they weren't there that day, and there were ushers instead, it probably would have turned out differently. But police do attend these things. Football hooligans are not blameless in this too. If folk could enjoy a sport without thinking they're going to war then a heavy police turnout wouldn't be needed in the first place. I imagine they must be prepared for a war every time there's a big match on too. But their over-eagerness to keep order at Hillsborough is what caused the crush in the first place. The only hooligans at that match were the police.

reply to post by AngryAlien


some of those being crushed at the fence, right in the front, were pleading with the police and others to open the barrier to let people out.. but their words fell on deaf ears as the police said they "feared there was going to be a pitch invasion"...

"We hate the way the police manage our events but we refuse to have an event without police present" Give me a break, design your stadiums to not be deathtraps and maybe hire private security? Here, I will state it in the plainest terms possible: If there had been no police there that day it would have gone just as bad only there wouldn't have been anybody around to lie about it after the fact.

reply to post by jeantherapy


I'm sure the private security would lie too.

Originally posted by budski
I wrote this thread on the 21st anniversary:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
.

Quoting your thread so nobody misses it.

Excellent bit of work you've done there.
I'm really pleased we are finally able to link it to the reality of truth and opened eyes.

Originally posted by wigit
reply to post by jeantherapy

 

I'm sure the private security would lie too.

Don't be so sure, private security is a different world from public policing. For one, you can fire your private security.

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by AngryAlien

 

some of those being crushed at the fence, right in the front, were pleading with the police and others to open the barrier to let people out.. but their words fell on deaf ears as the police said they "feared there was going to be a pitch invasion"...

See now, you can't have it both ways. You can't blame the police for not doing their job, and then blame them for doing their job.

Some police were on gate duty. Their job was to get people in and keep the fans separate. Some cops were there to do a job of keeping people off the pitch. We can't fault them for doing their job, which was to keep them off the pitch and away from the other team.

Didn't the same two teams also play a game at Hillsborough the year before?

According to a documentary I have seen very recently(last coupe of days I think), the police actions on that day were very different to what they were a year later. The police had checkpoints set up on roads around the stadium and fans had to show their tickets 2 or 3 times before they even got near the turnstiles.

This would have regulated the flow of traffic and avoided a buildup of fans at the gates as on the day of the disaster.

A year later and with a new officer in charge, they lost control of the entire situation and made things even worse by opening the exit gate leading to the tunnel which ultimately led to an already overcrowded pen, when there was plenty of room in the adjacent areas. The fact they then tried to blame fans for forcing open the gate was just the beginning of the scandalous cover up.

Originally posted by jeantherapy
"We hate the way the police manage our events but we refuse to have an event without police present" Give me a break, design your stadiums to not be deathtraps and maybe hire private security? Here, I will state it in the plainest terms possible: If there had been no police there that day it would have gone just as bad only there wouldn't have been anybody around to lie about it after the fact.

No we don't hate the way police manage our events.

The police had previously and for 23 years since generally managed the safety of those attending football matches.

This was one occasion where they totally failed and cost lives. One of the highest losses of life anywhere in peacetime in England.

Originally posted by TheMindWar
This is a huge police scandal people. Experience tells me they will use this opportunity, this information has been released for a reason IMO.

I believe this will be used as an excuse to phase out the public servent police. They are going to demonize the police and then suggest a new Private Corporate Police. They always demonize something in the media before they bring it down. Its called pre-programming.

The government will state they cannot afford to pay the police as they are bankrupt and then the corporate police will be brought in maybe backed by the military police.

edit on 12-9-2012 by TheMindWar because: Typo

Private Corporate Police?

Reminded me of this sketch

I think its disgusting to use horses to heard people, i couldn't begin to imagine the fear these people went through.

The problem is that the police around the world still use this tactic today

love and harmony
Whateva

Originally posted by Extralien
reply to post by AngryAlien

 

some of those being crushed at the fence, right in the front, were pleading with the police and others to open the barrier to let people out.. but their words fell on deaf ears as the police said they "feared there was going to be a pitch invasion"...

Worse than that, fans who managed to climb the barrier were pushed back in, as were some who managed to get through an open gate.
The police even assaulted fans who were ripping up advertising boards to use as stretchers.

I must stress that this was a minority of officers, because for the most part, junior officers were of as much help as they could be on that horrible day.