Like it or not, God is immoral.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

 

Morals (for a supreme God)...do not figure in the equation...this is a viewpoint that is often mistakenly overlooked...

Then how dare we look our children in the eye when they ask us, "Why does God do this"? or "Why did God say that?" and pretend that we understand the first thing of what he was thinking?

Really, it's all just an illusion to make us believe we actually understand the world. Unfortunately, we a

pply human characteristics and the whole charade goes downhill from there.

In answer to being asked by our children...(your question)... It is not God that does this!

In answer to 'what God says'...I am all loving, all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent, ageless, timeless etc...tacking questions of morality onto a being such as this is splitting a hair that is not there...

...and you just repeated what I just wrote...

"Unfortunately, we apply human characteristics and the whole charade goes downhill from there."

A99

Yet scriptures give man and God the same moral characteristics when A & E, as God says, became as Gods in knowing good and evil. If we cannot learn from God as you say, then what right has he to punish us for not learning what he cannot teach?

You ignore scriptures to hold you view.

Regards
DL

Scriptures from a book, I do not credit as being the pure, unadulterated word of God...niether the content, nor the context (hence the questions)...and you are asking me questions as if I did credit it wholly...I cannot answer or reply to your comments because I know you are on the wrong track...

Never said we cannot learn from God! (as you say, I said)...

How is he punishing us?

Perhaps you would have liked to be a robot, with no FREE WILL?
...and what possible outcome for a supreme being do you think this would have achieved?

A99

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99
[

FREE WILL confers responsibility...

No FREE WILL...no responsibility...

...but then, you see, people are quick to blame others for thier decisions...even a supreme being!

A99

And some exonerate the guilty supreme being who punishes people for being exactly what he created them to be.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

Utter tripe!

If you understood what 'the fall' represented, you would understand FREE WILL, as it has been conferred...I do not buy the fairy story of the hard-line christian 'fall'...with associated side-swapping characters...think Chinese Whispers...it has become, not so much, an allegory...as a totally misinterpreted event...

Any and all determinations based on the aesops fable of the 'fall' devolve like a chinese whisper...

The guff perpetrated about the shining one, Gods favorite angel is laughable and infantile, given that most christians will ascribe the title ALL POWERFUL to the supreme One...who apparently even for them, cannot contain a creation of its own...nay, has been waging a war with its own creations...has anybody really thought about how ridiculous this sounds?

One wonders how ALL POWERFUL they think he is...because I consider it a cop-out...a way of sidestepping personal responsibility...personal responsibility which creates the circumstances for the lower natures to exhibit themselves (as evil, if you want)...our responsibility is to negotiate a path through the mire of personal responsibility...luckily, we have prophets (or messengers, if you like) who describe to us what that path consists of...and let me be clear, I do not subscribe to any religion or way...

...except the way that makes sense...

A99

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by HamrHeed

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by HamrHeed
God is immoral because I said so"

You do realize this statement has been made many times?

ps he prefers to be called Father

Is this your way of refuting the premise?
If so, your apologising needs work.
Will you let my premise win by default?

Regards
DL

Your premise is that you're of God's mind.. to know how He operates.. It's a uniquely human question to ask.
It's beautiful, let's just agree

Not at all.

I can look at what is said and make a moral judgement though and you will note that so far, every theist has run away from doing the same thing. They know that they do not have a leg to stand on and cannot come up with anything moral that God is said to have done.

What does that tell you?

Regards
DL

Atheist here, but please allow me to play the devil's advocate.

Let me suggest that we do moral acts to other species that, if they were intelligent they wouldn't find these acts very moral at all. When deer or moose or bear overpopulate their environment, we say, "This is bad for the animals. They will eat all the food and then starve to death. So, the right and moral thing to do is kill some of them."

We set traps that are nothing short of torture devices, or we shoot them and watch them struggle away while the life bleeds out of them. We then cut them up and eat them with great joy. Why would this be completely moral, but totally immoral if a god did similar things to man?

I don't know if it's still being done, but I once watched a horse race where a horse broke its leg and fell. The owner, being the caring human that he was, rushed over and shot the horse to put it out of its misery. Imagine breaking your leg and someone being caring enough to shoot you in the head. Why would this be a wrong against you, but considered merciful for the horse? I bet if the horse could talk it wouldn't like this idea one bit.

Point: It seems that morality is not a universal truth, but is a set of rules set forth by the most powerful. Just as all of the lower species of animals live and die according to human whims and standards (morals), why would a god be considered immoral for doing the same things to us?

edit on 9/16/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Your post began with “Let me suggest that we do moral acts to other species”

I think you may have meant immoral and will treat it as such.

On horses. Let us remember that with then, a broken leg meant a slow death and killing it was mercy. I agree that if the horse would have lived, morality could come into play depending on the hardship on the humans to keep it alive. It is all about resources and each case would be slightly different. We should respect other species and we generally do as we know they help us survive. You will know that most of the old tribes venerated all life even as they killed it.

As to culling other meat animals. Because we are selfish and reproduce when we can, like any animal will, a survival mechanism, we will come into conflicts with the environment as we compete for resources. In a case of them or us, the other species will lose. This is moral.

I agree that sometimes our methods could be more humane but it would be less moral to let a human starve. At some point in time equilibrium will return to that environment and the more humans we can save for that space the better. Given the choice, meat should die; not humans.

If a God did the same to us as you suggest then it would be moral as he is being true to his species. Let’s thank all the Gods that bible God is a myth and cannot reproduce or he would be eating his slave creation. Us.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

 

Morals (for a supreme God)...do not figure in the equation...this is a viewpoint that is often mistakenly overlooked...

Then how dare we look our children in the eye when they ask us, "Why does God do this"? or "Why did God say that?" and pretend that we understand the first thing of what he was thinking?

Really, it's all just an illusion to make us believe we actually understand the world. Unfortunately, we a

pply human characteristics and the whole charade goes downhill from there.

In answer to being asked by our children...(your question)... It is not God that does this!

In answer to 'what God says'...I am all loving, all powerful, omniscient, omnipotent, ageless, timeless etc...tacking questions of morality onto a being such as this is splitting a hair that is not there...

...and you just repeated what I just wrote...

"Unfortunately, we apply human characteristics and the whole charade goes downhill from there."

A99

Yet scriptures give man and God the same moral characteristics when A & E, as God says, became as Gods in knowing good and evil. If we cannot learn from God as you say, then what right has he to punish us for not learning what he cannot teach?

You ignore scriptures to hold you view.

Regards
DL

Scriptures from a book, I do not credit as being the pure, unadulterated word of God...niether the content, nor the context (hence the questions)...and you are asking me questions as if I did credit it wholly...I cannot answer or reply to your comments because I know you are on the wrong track...

Never said we cannot learn from God! (as you say, I said)...

How is he punishing us?

Perhaps you would have liked to be a robot, with no FREE WILL?
...and what possible outcome for a supreme being do you think this would have achieved?

A99

The old free will card.

If God respects our free will, as you foolishly assert, show how his fit on A & E and us the first time they showed they were autonomous and not robots and did their will and not God's will, is showing anything other than God wanting robots.

The first time they did not act like robots he murdered them by neglect.

Where was the free will you say they had?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by akushla99

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by akushla99
[

FREE WILL confers responsibility...

No FREE WILL...no responsibility...

...but then, you see, people are quick to blame others for thier decisions...even a supreme being!

A99

And some exonerate the guilty supreme being who punishes people for being exactly what he created them to be.

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin.


Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.

Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.

Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

Regards
DL

Utter tripe!

If you understood what 'the fall' represented, you would understand FREE WILL, as it has been conferred...I do not buy the fairy story of the hard-line christian 'fall'...with associated side-swapping characters...think Chinese Whispers...it has become, not so much, an allegory...as a totally misinterpreted event...

Any and all determinations based on the aesops fable of the 'fall' devolve like a chinese whisper...

The guff perpetrated about the shining one, Gods favorite angel is laughable and infantile, given that most christians will ascribe the title ALL POWERFUL to the supreme One...who apparently even for them, cannot contain a creation of its own...nay, has been waging a war with its own creations...has anybody really thought about how ridiculous this sounds?

One wonders how ALL POWERFUL they think he is...because I consider it a cop-out...a way of sidestepping personal responsibility...personal responsibility which creates the circumstances for the lower natures to exhibit themselves (as evil, if you want)...our responsibility is to negotiate a path through the mire of personal responsibility...luckily, we have prophets (or messengers, if you like) who describe to us what that path consists of...and let me be clear, I do not subscribe to any religion or way...

...except the way that makes sense...

A99

And your reading of Genesis in terms of free will does not.

But you know this because you call what I gave tripe and immediately coped-out...a way of sidestepping personal responsibility, yourself with this last straw man post.

Answer the post above speaking of robots if you can and stop trying to cop-out.

Regards
DL

Quote
The old free will card.

If God respects our free will, as you foolishly assert, show how his fit on A & E and us the first time they showed they were autonomous and not robots and did their will and not God's will, is showing anything other than God wanting robots.

The first time they did not act like robots he murdered them by neglect.

Where was the free will you say they had?

Regards
DL
quote

God doesn't 'need' to respect our FREE WILL...this condition existed BEFORE the spirits were made carnal (of the flesh)...they were told what would ensue...these subsequent conditions (you have mentioned) are described in many cosmologies...so foolishly...WHATEVER...

We were created through FREE WILL, that condition is available to all creations...as it was with the originals...as it was available to the shining One, Gods' favorite...what has followed is an ever cascading 'cause and effect', brought about by FREE WILL...

Our mission...to master the process of FREE WILL to make it back to the original conflagration (us, being the tiny flames of that conflagration)...

We need to be reminded from time to time about how to do this...prophets!...all prophets basically say the same thing - coincidentally...

'They'...always had FREE WILL...tell me how 'they' didn't...given that they were 'warned' about what would happen...

A99

reply to post by Greatest I am


I already told you...I do not believe the cookie cutter version of genesis...nor do I use only one cosmological treatise to come to a conclusion...

So...calling 'cop-out' is moot...I have explained what FREE WILL means...if you still have questions...go ahead
...because, I don't!
What I know, makes perfect sense, and it is contained in whatever I have written...

I believe in an ALL POWERFUL, (read, unchallenged by any creation) creator of all that is seen and unseen, omnipotent, omniscient GOD...if I did not, it/he/she would cease to be ALL POWERFUL...what you are describing from one book is, as I have said, a messy excuse for a God story...albeit this...it is based on events from our far, far, far distant past...think of how much the story could have changed since then, for whatever reason, by who knows who...

A99

reply to post by Greatest I am


Please don't quote so many posts that the original posts become hard to read. I believe the mods have said something about curbing the extent of quoting so as to make discussion eaiser.

In any case, anyone who is actually willing to think critically about the whole deal will realize that 'free will' does not exist in a situation where the Creator has both omniscience and omnipotence. Every single instant of every single lifetime of every individual in every square inch of space on the planet has been preordained by that Creator, because to both know absolutely everything (not just what CAN happen, but what WILL happen) and have the power to change absolutely anything with just a word, yet do nothing to change the course of the world, is to say, "I agree with this. Let it be so."

How many times must I say this? I am becoming convinced that I have said it enough and should just let it be, because if they didn't listen the first six times, they won't listen the seventh. The logic is there, people. It is irrefutable. If the logic is sound and would be reasonably applied to anyone on earth (should they fit the qualifications) then why can't it be applied to "God"?

There is no argument. If you are capable, and you are knowledgeable, and you are negligent, you are responsible. No questions asked. Why is that so hard to understand? In addition, there is no free will when a being like that is involved, because everything that happens is a result of their allowing it to. You can't be all-powerful and all-knowing and NOT control all of reality. To even suggest it is logically unsound. I don't know how else to explain it. I think I've made it clear enough...people are just refusing to consider it. :bnghd:

reply to post by akushla99

I believe in an ALL POWERFUL, (read, unchallenged by any creation) creator of all that is seen and unseen, omnipotent, omniscient GOD...if I did not, it/he/she would cease to be ALL POWERFUL...what you are describing from one book is, as I have said, a messy excuse for a God story...albeit this...it is based on events from our far, far, far distant past...think of how much the story could have changed since then, for whatever reason, by who knows who...

Then please explain the lack of mercy from this entity in the past several years. When are these miracles supposed to happen? WW1? Nope. WW2? Nope. The brink of WW3? Nope...we had to pull our own a** out of the fire. The Cold War? Haha, NO! How about Pearl Harbor, or the atomic bomb, or Vietnam, or Iwo Jima, or Normandy, or any number of other costly scuffles that could have been averted with a single small adjustment of a tiny detail. He's omniscient and all-powerful, he would have known exactly what to do to appear uninvolved while still saving countless lives. And yet he's incapable?

You've heard of the quote by Epicurus, yes? Allow me to repost it...it seems no one paid attention.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

To be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, AND negligent, is totally inexcusable. I don't care who you are, where you're from, what other people think of you, or what you think of yourself - if all three of those qualities apply to you, without exception, and you are still negligent, you are quite possibly the worst "God" in existence.

To have the ability to do absolutely anything, and yet choose to do nothing, is despicable. Especially when your creations use what you've given them to destroy each other and the world you gave them, and you just sit back like, "Oh well. I'll let them fight a while, then start over, lol." And Christians have decided to devote their souls and their lives to serving this being?

It's no wonder we haven't gotten anywhere. We need a bit of integrity to get somewhere in this world, and as long as we're so afraid of the unknown that we'll endlessly debase and degrade ourselves in the eyes of this despicable facsimile of a deity, we won't have that integrity. Take it as you will, but with all due respect, that is my stance on the subject.

Thanks for reading.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
To have the ability to do absolutely anything, and yet choose to do nothing, is despicable.

This is why I consider a great many humans around me despicable. Ever seen one little kid being harassed by a group of kids while there are mobs of adults around, who do nothing? It's just like that with our planet on a grander scale; we see what our governments are doing is wrong and yet we choose to do nothing. (Yes I consider 'voting' to be the same as nothing) There is a lack of concerted effort by the good people to seek each other out and band together to achieve the goal of transforming the Earth into a modern paradise devoid of violence and jealousy and greed. (which is likely impossible as long as you believe in these bloodthirsy gods)

reply to post by jeantherapy


Part of it stems from many of those same people idolising a deity with those exact parameters. A laundry list of character defects that completely demolish the accepted version typically broadcast in most churches.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

 

I believe in an ALL POWERFUL, (read, unchallenged by any creation) creator of all that is seen and unseen, omnipotent, omniscient GOD...if I did not, it/he/she would cease to be ALL POWERFUL...what you are describing from one book is, as I have said, a messy excuse for a God story...albeit this...it is based on events from our far, far, far distant past...think of how much the story could have changed since then, for whatever reason, by who knows who...

Then please explain the lack of mercy from this entity in the past several years. When are these miracles supposed to happen? WW1? Nope. WW2? Nope. The brink of WW3? Nope...we had to pull our own a** out of the fire. The Cold War? Haha, NO! How about Pearl Harbor, or the atomic bomb, or Vietnam, or Iwo Jima, or Normandy, or any number of other costly scuffles that could have been averted with a single small adjustment of a tiny detail. He's omniscient and all-powerful, he would have known exactly what to do to appear uninvolved while still saving countless lives. And yet he's incapable?

You've heard of the quote by Epicurus, yes? Allow me to repost it...it seems no one paid attention.

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" - Epicurus

To be omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, AND negligent, is totally inexcusable. I don't care who you are, where you're from, what other people think of you, or what you think of yourself - if all three of those qualities apply to you, without exception, and you are still negligent, you are quite possibly the worst "God" in existence.

To have the ability to do absolutely anything, and yet choose to do nothing, is despicable. Especially when your creations use what you've given them to destroy each other and the world you gave them, and you just sit back like, "Oh well. I'll let them fight a while, then start over, lol." And Christians have decided to devote their souls and their lives to serving this being?

It's no wonder we haven't gotten anywhere. We need a bit of integrity to get somewhere in this world, and as long as we're so afraid of the unknown that we'll endlessly debase and degrade ourselves in the eyes of this despicable facsimile of a deity, we won't have that integrity. Take it as you will, but with all due respect, that is my stance on the subject.

Thanks for reading.

...'and yet he's incapable'...
Incapability is the hallmark of a NOT ALL powerful God...and the comment (always) smacks of the 'save us' dribble...

If an All powerful God intervenes in events...FREE WILL, as a conditional 'given' is called into question...

...or if your mama or your papa does everything for you...what do you learn?
You learn to NOT take responsibility!

Epicurus...
1+1=5

The rest of what you write is more blame where it isn't warranted...it's the psychology of blame shifting...

I understand your stance on the subject (at the end)...and I agree, it IS our responsibility to have integrity...but integrity is part of the process of being accountable - responsible...to accept the condition of FREE WILL, in a paradigm where mummy/daddy/God doesn't come and save us all the time...when you grow into adulthood (especially in a religious sense) you must embrace this responsibility or, psychologically you remain a child...

Thanks for reading...

A99

reply to post by akushla99

If an All powerful God intervenes in events...FREE WILL, as a conditional 'given' is called into question...

...or if your mama or your papa does everything for you...what do you learn?
You learn to NOT take responsibility!

Epicurus...
1+1=5

Oh please, not this ridiculous argument again. 'Free will' is a cop-out, a little footnote designed to save your "God" from the responsibility that is blatantly lacking.

When you know everything, and can do anything, the lack of action is the same as saying, "I want it this way." If you know everything your little robot will do, and you LET it do those things, you have given your approval. Our free will is the same as "God" saying, "I want this to happen."

In essence, that little bit of argument is utter tripe. Complete and utter tripe. There is no other logical conclusion.

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by HamrHeed

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by HamrHeed
God is immoral because I said so"

You do realize this statement has been made many times?

ps he prefers to be called Father

Is this your way of refuting the premise?
If so, your apologising needs work.
Will you let my premise win by default?

Regards
DL

Your premise is that you're of God's mind.. to know how He operates.. It's a uniquely human question to ask.
It's beautiful, let's just agree

Not at all.

I can look at what is said and make a moral judgement though and you will note that so far, every theist has run away from doing the same thing. They know that they do not have a leg to stand on and cannot come up with anything moral that God is said to have done.

What does that tell you?

Regards
DL

Atheist here, but please allow me to play the devil's advocate.

Let me suggest that we do moral acts to other species that, if they were intelligent they wouldn't find these acts very moral at all. When deer or moose or bear overpopulate their environment, we say, "This is bad for the animals. They will eat all the food and then starve to death. So, the right and moral thing to do is kill some of them."

We set traps that are nothing short of torture devices, or we shoot them and watch them struggle away while the life bleeds out of them. We then cut them up and eat them with great joy. Why would this be completely moral, but totally immoral if a god did similar things to man?

I don't know if it's still being done, but I once watched a horse race where a horse broke its leg and fell. The owner, being the caring human that he was, rushed over and shot the horse to put it out of its misery. Imagine breaking your leg and someone being caring enough to shoot you in the head. Why would this be a wrong against you, but considered merciful for the horse? I bet if the horse could talk it wouldn't like this idea one bit.

Point: It seems that morality is not a universal truth, but is a set of rules set forth by the most powerful. Just as all of the lower species of animals live and die according to human whims and standards (morals), why would a god be considered immoral for doing the same things to us?

edit on 9/16/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Your post began with “Let me suggest that we do moral acts to other species”

That was a poorly phrased sentence. Sorry. I meant to suggest that what we do to animals is moral. Not immoral.

reply to post by jiggerj


Did you really have to quote so many posts that I can't even read the first couple? Come on now...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Did you really have to quote so many posts that I can't even read the first couple? Come on now...

There's a perfectly good reason why I did that. I have a condition. It's called lazy.
Seriously, sorry about that. I get home from work and I'm totally trashed. I just wanted to make a quick comment to Greatest I Am.

reply to post by jiggerj


I think he just meant that the "reply" button, located next to the "quote" button, would have been sufficient in terms of accurately relating your message.

Originally posted by jeantherapy
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I think he just meant that the "reply" button, located next to the "quote" button, would have been sufficient in terms of accurately relating your message.

Again, sorry. I use the quote (and personally I wish everybody else would) to remind the person I am conversing with what we're talking about. Or at least post a link to the last post.

Many times I've had people respond to me without making any connection to what I last wrote. I guess my memory is short because I can't remember what I wrote.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by akushla99

 

If an All powerful God intervenes in events...FREE WILL, as a conditional 'given' is called into question...

...or if your mama or your papa does everything for you...what do you learn?
You learn to NOT take responsibility!

Epicurus...
1+1=5

Oh please, not this ridiculous argument again. 'Free will' is a cop-out, a little footnote designed to save your "God" from the responsibility that is blatantly lacking.

When you know everything, and can do anything, the lack of action is the same as saying, "I want it this way." If you know everything your little robot will do, and you LET it do those things, you have given your approval. Our free will is the same as "God" saying, "I want this to happen."

In essence, that little bit of argument is utter tripe. Complete and utter tripe. There is no other logical conclusion.

Good luck arguing with yourself and asking questions in circles...this is what happens in the closed system you present...This conversation is over...

A99

Originally posted by akushla99
Quote
The old free will card.

If God respects our free will, as you foolishly assert, show how his fit on A & E and us the first time they showed they were autonomous and not robots and did their will and not God's will, is showing anything other than God wanting robots.

The first time they did not act like robots he murdered them by neglect.

Where was the free will you say they had?

Regards
DL
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God doesn't 'need' to respect our FREE WILL...this condition existed BEFORE the spirits were made carnal (of the flesh)...they were told what would ensue...these subsequent conditions (you have mentioned) are described in many cosmologies...so foolishly...WHATEVER...

We were created through FREE WILL, that condition is available to all creations...as it was with the originals...as it was available to the shining One, Gods' favorite...what has followed is an ever cascading 'cause and effect', brought about by FREE WILL...

Our mission...to master the process of FREE WILL to make it back to the original conflagration (us, being the tiny flames of that conflagration)...

We need to be reminded from time to time about how to do this...prophets!...all prophets basically say the same thing - coincidentally...

'They'...always had FREE WILL...tell me how 'they' didn't...given that they were 'warned' about what would happen...

A99

Ignoring the fact that A & E did not have free will does not make the fact disappear.
The fact you tried to deflect shows you know you are being a hypocrite.

Regards
DL