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America's Underwater: GDP = $15.606T; Debt = $16.046T

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posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by blah yada

Originally posted by Eurisko2012
reply to post by sheepslayer247
 


I'll explain it to you November 7, 2012.



No time like the present, go on ,explain it.It sounds like you're stumped and are stalling for time.


Yes, you are correct. I am.

Maybe i'll let President Mitt Romney explain it to you.




posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 12:20 PM
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reply to post by Eurisko2012
 


So......you were talking out of your backside and you are making claims that are untrue?

You don't even know what Romney would do?

edit on 12-9-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: Trying to be nice.......



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 01:00 PM
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Well, that's a good one. Barely over 100% GDP? If only.

I know that plenty of American financial theorists and banksters have had laughable Nobel Prizes in Economics chucked at them ad infinitum, but I'm pretty sure even in that case the US Economy is in a much more sorry predicament.
edit on 12/9/12 by Morg234 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 01:34 PM
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Originally posted by sheepslayer247
reply to post by Eurisko2012
 


So......you were talking out of your backside and you are making claims that are untrue?

You don't even know what Romney would do?

edit on 12-9-2012 by sheepslayer247 because: Trying to be nice.......


I think he/she is trying to derail the thread and use it as an electoral mouthpiece. All they really did was prove that Romney supporters are even more clueless than Obama ones.

Both factions are so blindly entrenched in their political fantasies/scams that they can not or will not recognise the patent truths about our monetary system that have been iterated and reiterated in this thread.Only someone with an infantile mind could believe in this Punch and Judy show.

The financial sysytem is one giant Catch 22, a construct of illusion that you submit to. You don't have to, but you choose to or feel obligated to in order to fit in and get along.Fit in and get along with what though?

The results of our actions are actually manipulated, twisted, ommited and fabricated, so that we no longer understand the true cause and effect of our actions, especially at the broader level. We engage in commerce in order to fulfill ideals and norms that have been set out for us, but that are not neccesarily vital to a healthy and decent existence.We do this at a pathological level.We harm ourselves and others chasing dollars with which we can purchase that which is prescribed to us or expected of us.

When you get your new iPhone, or your designer wear, or whatever, do you ever stop to consider what had to happen for you to be able to afford this flashy new product. It's not because you are so rich. If the real cost of an iphone was actually invoiced to you, you would be calling your lawyer.

You actually can't afford it at all. You paid for it with debt, and people you don't know in a country you couldn't point out on a globe are paying for it in ways you can't imagine.Their grandchildren will be paying for your iphone. The envronment is paying for it............. we are ultimately, all going to pay for it with interest, or maybe our kids will pick up the tab. Maybe we'll just play musical chairs until one unlucky generation is lying in a heap.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:01 PM
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reply to post by jibeho
 


How fast is the GDP rising as compared to the National Debt? And can we expect the projected future to hold yield similar results?
edit on 12-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:03 PM
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Great thread Jib.

Unfortunately, the "poor" and illegals are out getting illegally registered to vote or ID's etc....

A bit too late, I am afraid.

I hope you all prepped.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:09 PM
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Originally posted by anon72
Great thread Jib.

Unfortunately, the "poor" and illegals are out getting illegally registered to vote or ID's etc....

A bit too late, I am afraid.

I hope you all prepped.


When did it become illegal to vote if you are poor?

Did I miss something or are you just talking nonsense?



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by sheepslayer247
 



I am just using the words of the opponents to the varing state laws that are requring Voter ID this year/election.

"It will disenfranchise the Poor, ...... etc etc etc.."



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:20 PM
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reply to post by anon72
 


Disenfranchising the poor is a different statement than they are illegally acquiring ID's or illegally registering to vote.

It is this sort of rhetoric and propaganda that is pushing people away from Republicans and a conservative ideology. There is no way to intelligently defend such garbage and makes the real conservatives say "I'm not with that guy".



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 03:12 PM
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reply to post by jibeho
 


I've been telling people to get off their asses and start listening to people with views that may not match the security blanket views of the mainstream media. We all know short term security vs. long term suffering is not worth it.

Guess they'd rather see the ship go down in high fashion to boot:

edit on 12-9-2012 by Soloro because: (no reason given)
edit on 12-9-2012 by Soloro because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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1. If the debt is denominated in US dollars, there's no way the US is going broke.

2. There's no OPERATIONAL limit for the US when it comes to spending its own US dollars.

3. The US marks up the accounts of the US debt creditors when payments on the debt are due.

4. The US will never run out of US dollars. That's just impossible.

5. The debt ceiling is a POLITICAL arrangement. It is a self-imposed constraint. It has been adjusted several times.

6. If we were on the gold standard, the US could run out of gold. But we are not on the gold standard.

7. Japan's national debt amounts to 196% of its GDP. That debt is denominated in Japanese yen. Japan will never go broke if the debts concerned are denominated in yen. It can, however, run out of US dollars and thus have a hard time importing stuff. But it'll never run out of yen. Japan can owe (in yen) 1000% of its GDP if it chooses to. The size of the national debt - and the size of government for that matter - is always a POLITICAL choice. This choice is usually made by the ruling elite. There's no such thing as running out of your own national currency. "They" know it.

8. The more important thing is who owns the debt. The size of a country's national debt, provided it is denominated in the money that is accepted to pay taxes in that country, is a never a solvency issue. The national debt can be huge or tiny; the elite chooses how large or small it'll be.

9. When the elite wants to control upward social movement (that is their "default mode" - it's all they care about), they load the private sector with debt. They even load their own banks with debt in the process. They know their banks will be bailed out later, because they understand that the US government can't run out of US dollars.

10. When the elite can't squeeze the people any longer, they revert to sucking on the government. When the elite can't just keep sucking financial resources out of you, because you don't have disposable income (all those student loans, credit cards, housing and insurance payments just can't grow any more or there is the possibility that these debts are not going to be paid), they revert to sucking money out of the government.

11. The elite only resorts to quantitative easing and similar tactics when it can't make the people poorer. All the elite cares about is increasing social polarization. Money is just one of the tools used for this end. They'll try doing this until there are two species of human beings. Then their great work will be crystallized. But that is another topic, one that I'm sure you all know a lot about.

12. The US is the only country in the world whose external and internal debt are both denominated in US dollars. The US is different from all other countries when it comes to monetary sovereignty. The fact that the US "chooses" to use this exorbitant privilege to increase social polarization and benefit the rich instead of using it to advance public purpose is a different issue. The US is an amazing wealth extraction tool, as are almost all other countries. The US is just a more powerful tool. A proper tool for great works.

13. Eurozone countries are like US states; they are currency users, not currency issuers. They are not sovereign when it comes to money. They are all external debtors (Germany included). Only the ECB can spend euros limitlessly. Spain, Portugal,Grece, Germany and all other eurozone countries are operationally limited when it comes to spending euros. They have to earn before they spend, or borrow to cover debts. They can't just credit accounts like a central governement that issues its own currency can.

14. Almost all currency isssuers run governement deficits almost all the time. The only way to run a government surplus and increase private savings is to have an external surplus. This is a matter of national accounting and is not subject to opinion. The sectoral balance equation [(S – I) = (G – T) + (X – M)] is undeniable. Please understand this chart:



15. All "the US is going broke" talk is propaganda. The financial system changed back in 1973 (1971 if you want to use Nixon's decision as the main reference point). A country that issues its own money can, since 1973, owe the amount it (its ruling elite, actually) chooses to owe. Again, the size of the national debt is a political decision, and the ruling oligarchy has the power to decide. Many Maroeconomics textbooks are outdated when it comes to this critical issue. By the way, books are by far the most efficient form of strategic long-term propaganda.

16. The people that use the US government as tool for reaching their strategic objectives will always sabotage countries that attempt to stop using US dollars as a means to solve their external obligations. The owners of the US have a great thing going on. As George Carlin said, 'it's a big club, and you ain't in it".



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by mauricio
1. If the debt is denominated in US dollars, there's no way the US is going broke.

2. There's no OPERATIONAL limit for the US when it comes to spending its own US dollars.

3. The US marks up the accounts of the US debt creditors when payments on the debt are due.

4. The US will never run out of US dollars. That's just impossible.

5. The debt ceiling is a POLITICAL arrangement. It is a self-imposed constraint. It has been adjusted several times.

6. If we were on the gold standard, the US could run out of gold. But we are not on the gold standard.

7. Japan's national debt amounts to 196% of its GDP. That debt is denominated in Japanese yen. Japan will never go broke if the debts concerned are denominated in yen. It can, however, run out of US dollars and thus have a hard time importing stuff. But it'll never run out of yen. Japan can owe (in yen) 1000% of its GDP if it chooses to. The size of the national debt - and the size of government for that matter - is always a POLITICAL choice. This choice is usually made by the ruling elite. There's no such thing as running out of your own national currency. "They" know it.

8. The more important thing is who owns the debt. The size of a country's national debt, provided it is denominated in the money that is accepted to pay taxes in that country, is a never a solvency issue. The national debt can be huge or tiny; the elite chooses how large or small it'll be.

9. When the elite wants to control upward social movement (that is their "default mode" - it's all they care about), they load the private sector with debt. They even load their own banks with debt in the process. They know their banks will be bailed out later, because they understand that the US government can't run out of US dollars.

10. When the elite can't squeeze the people any longer, they revert to sucking on the government. When the elite can't just keep sucking financial resources out of you, because you don't have disposable income (all those student loans, credit cards, housing and insurance payments just can't grow any more or there is the possibility that these debts are not going to be paid), they revert to sucking money out of the government.

11. The elite only resorts to quantitative easing and similar tactics when it can't make the people poorer. All the elite cares about is increasing social polarization. Money is just one of the tools used for this end. They'll try doing this until there are two species of human beings. Then their great work will be crystallized. But that is another topic, one that I'm sure you all know a lot about.

12. The US is the only country in the world whose external and internal debt are both denominated in US dollars. The US is different from all other countries when it comes to monetary sovereignty. The fact that the US "chooses" to use this exorbitant privilege to increase social polarization and benefit the rich instead of using it to advance public purpose is a different issue. The US is an amazing wealth extraction tool, as are almost all other countries. The US is just a more powerful tool. A proper tool for great works.

13. Eurozone countries are like US states; they are currency users, not currency issuers. They are not sovereign when it comes to money. They are all external debtors (Germany included). Only the ECB can spend euros limitlessly. Spain, Portugal,Grece, Germany and all other eurozone countries are operationally limited when it comes to spending euros. They have to earn before they spend, or borrow to cover debts. They can't just credit accounts like a central governement that issues its own currency can.

14. Almost all currency isssuers run governement deficits almost all the time. The only way to run a government surplus and increase private savings is to have an external surplus. This is a matter of national accounting and is not subject to opinion. The sectoral balance equation [(S – I) = (G – T) + (X – M)] is undeniable. Please understand this chart:


Excellent post. I don't think though that too many of us are worried about America running out of dollars.We know they can just keep printing them. it would be a dream come true if they could actually run out.At least it would put a halt on the madness.There is no monetary standard other than debt which isn't really a standard if it keeps growing

edit on 13-9-2012 by blah yada because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by mauricio
 


If the USA continues to behave in a financially irresponsible manner, our credit rating will

be downgraded...........again!

The $$$ trillion dollar deficits must come to an end.



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by Morg234
Well, that's a good one. Barely over 100% GDP? If only.

I know that plenty of American financial theorists and banksters have had laughable Nobel Prizes in Economics chucked at them ad infinitum, but I'm pretty sure even in that case the US Economy is in a much more sorry predicament.
edit on 12/9/12 by Morg234 because: (no reason given)


Both the UK and the USA are participating in quantitative easing - Monetizing the Debt-.

Also, i think the UK is officially back in a recession.



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 12:21 PM
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Originally posted by jibeho
Do the math folks!! We're officially busted!! Remember that when you go to the polls in November.


According to the most recent official estimate by the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis, the Gross Domestic Product for 2012 will be $15.6061 trillion--or about $440.5 billion less than the $16.0466 in debt that the federal government had accumulated as of the close of business on Monday.

The BEA, which is part of the Department of Commerce and which officially calculates GDP, based its current estimate of this year's GDP, published on Aug. 29, on economic data available through the end of the second quarter of this calender year.


Wow! Put you mind around this


If that current estimate is correct, the debt of the United States government eclipsed the value of the Gross Domestic Product of the United States on April 2 of this year.

cnsnews.com...

BTW That's NOT a good thing!!!! We have exceeded the tipping in this nation and its only going to get worse!!!

edit on 11-9-2012 by jibeho because: add source


You have two choices this coming November. Vote for the Republican controlled by the PTB, or vote for the Democrat that is controlled by the PTB. It's ridiculous to think for a moment that anyone's vote counts anymore. The last president we had that tried to do anything at all for 'the people' was JFK. And they killed him for it.



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by vexati0n
wow I must be SERIOUSLY underwater then. I make $80k/year and still owe twice that on my house alone, not to mention my car.

i mean, you are suggesting that annual income is supposed to be higher than all your debts combined, right?


p.s. that's dumb.


My thoughts exactly. I wish I could give you more than 1 star.

Don't get me wrong, wasteful spending is a serious problem within our government, and our debt could be reduced, but lets face it, the average American doesn't want to save money or cut spending because we are too content suckling that big fat government tit.

Cutting the debt, and making real change in this country is possible, but it will hurt. We have gotten in so deep that there is no easy way out, but Americans have gotten too use to their instant gratification to listen to any of that.
edit on 13-9-2012 by Majiq1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 03:20 PM
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reply to post by mauricio
 


That's the most rediculous argument I've ever heard.

No one is worried about running out of dollars. Where did you ever get such an idea? Sure, we can print all the pretend paper money we want. Let's just go crazy and print 20 trillion dollars a day! Problem solved, right?

Do you have any idea what printing money does? Every dollar printed diminishes the value of every dollar you have. It's a hidden tax, and that's why the politicians will never stop The Fed from doing it. They get to spend an infinite amount of money, which comes out of your pocket, and you're to ignorant to even see it happening. A wonderful plan, so long as the people stay stupid.

Unless we tell them we've had enough, we will all wake up one day too poor to feed our families or pay the mortgage on the same amount of money we make now, or even more. Then it will be too late to change anything within our lifetimes, and your children will live their entire lives like surfs because you didn't care to do anything about it. That's IF society doesn't break down completely.

Dollars are not what matters. VALUE is everything.
edit on 9/13/2012 by AntiNWO because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 06:06 PM
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reply to post by AntiNWO
 


I was about to reply to the same post but you answered it perfectly.

second line...



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 06:16 PM
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I honestly believe they [ government ] spend the way they do, because they know it's all coming down and want to get as much out of it as they can before it does. Our economy is hopelessly out of balance and no ones plan is going to work.
The crash and recovery will be a horror story, told for generations as a warning.



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 06:29 PM
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Well, the FED just announced QE3 - going to be over a trillion dollars when it is all said and done (going to dump about 10 billion EVERY WEEK) They are going to use it to pay off mortgage securities and monetizing the debt via bond purchases) The first two didn't work, this one isn't going to work either.

DON'T YOU FEEL RICHER ALREADY?





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