The Biblical God - Why isn't credit being given where credit is due?

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posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 





s that your best counter-argument? No wonder your "God" resorts to killing anyone who witnesses his flaws, rather than winding the clock back and having another go at Creation.


Cmon After, at least show some intelligence and realize when an argument is actually being made.




posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ
 


The message you get from whatever version of whatever authority you read, is YOUR message. That doesn't guarantee it's the exact right message. That doesn't guarantee it's the ONLY right message. That means that you have garnered positive effect from how YOU look at it.

Because your message seems to vary greatly from other messages I have heard taken from similar sources. So why would you assume that your message is automatically perfect for everyone else, when it isn't even absolute? Your flavor, your preference, your window to see the world through, is your own. It works for you, but maybe it ONLY works for you.


Let me tell you something.

I'm pretty smart, and very intuitive.

I can tell you right now I've read the Bible NUMEROUS times!

I can tell you have not read it ONCE.

Don't tell me what is what until you your SELF have studied it at length as I have.

I could even teach you how to read it verse by verse and SHOW YOU exactly what I get out of it verses what your preacher tells you.

Don't for a second think I could not school you on this subject!!!

It would take me many threads or many emails to show you but I could.

You tell me what it is I've said that's NOT FOUND in the Bible and I will show you where it IS FOUND.

Start NOW!



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 03:24 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


Originally posted by Miri08
As they say, there are two sides to every coin and I'm interested in all points of view on this, I found your links helpful for another perspective and I'm going to watch the video in the first link shortly.
Thank you for replying


Edit: I just watched the video and he makes valid points as far as the killings attributed to religion and how what's true for religion is also true for atheism. The wording in my original post was horrendous and I was really thinking more about what I perceived (but am starting to learn more about thanks to some of the replies) as god directly killing as it relates to the bible, still though if we are talking about the killings in god's name, this man makes very good points and seems quite balanced in what he's saying. Very good video, thank you again.

How truly refreshing to see some on ATS who are more interested in the TRUTH than just being right for a change.


How often do we see those here on ATS that are willing to admit that just maybe I MAY have been wrong?

Not very often sadly...




Originally posted by Miri08
Why isn't proper credit given to god on the pulpit?

Sometimes, the pulpit is the last place you will find the truth...

There is a stealth agenda behind all false religion and virtually every denomination and organization in Christendom has been infiltrated.


The Vatican has infiltrated, or neutered and spayed, virtually every denomination and organization in Christendom. Various means have been used, but Opus Dei has played a major role in this.

Virtually 100% of the world's seminaries are in the pocket of the Roman Whore in that they use her Bible via the Alexandrian Gnostic Greek texts.

OPUS DEI-- War on Protestantism

..the goal is to infiltrate and destroy the Church from within.
Satan has infiltrated organized religion
Religion is a major tool of the Illuminati agenda
All false religions are illuminati mind control



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 06:40 PM
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Originally posted by MamaJ
I can tell you right now I've read the Bible NUMEROUS times!

I can tell you have not read it ONCE.

Don't tell me what is what until you your SELF have studied it at length as I have.


Who needs to study when we have Wikipedia and YouTube?

/sarcasm

(Though, seriously, that is becoming a rather frightening mindset, particularly among the young. I predict a day, not far off, when there will be so much misinformation that is accepted as fact that purveyors of the truth will just give up, and the idiocracy takes over.)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Then please, do show me. Give me...say...three verses that are relevant to this thread, and show me how you interpret them. I'd love to see how you look at it.



Don't for a second think I could not school you on this subject!!!


School me on something that requires faith? Everything I learned in school relied on logic. A slight conflict of interests there, my friend.


You tell me what it is I've said that's NOT FOUND in the Bible and I will show you where it IS FOUND.

Start NOW!


With all due respect, I'll start when you've finished your demonstration. That should leave with me with some great examples to work with. I've never said you use material not found in the Bible, I said that your understanding isn't exactly orthodox and so might not be, shall we say, 'standard issue'. But again, please give me a demonstration of what I asked at the beginning of this post. Perhaps we can find some understanding to rub between us, yes?
edit on 12-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 07:16 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I'll have you know that I am for more analytical than most people my age. What you're implying is similar to saying that there will come a day when all the old people will hard of hearing, unable to use technology, and so reliant upon the younger generation that grandchildren will be paid wages to take care of the elders in their family.

Then again, if "God" demands that be so, who are we to argue with him?


edit on 12-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 07:50 PM
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reply to post by Murgatroid
 


Thank you for the links! I've bookmarked them and plan to start reading them later tonight when I'm more awake (I wouldn't know what to do if I could keep to a regular sleep schedule lol)

Thank you for accepting my apologies also, I realize why I got hit so hard so to speak with this post ( hindsight is 20/20 ) and I accept that ....This isn't the first time I've been wrong and I can guarantee you it won't be the last time either!

I have a lot of info now though and am slowly starting to see things new - so for me the post was worth it



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


I've downloaded the PDF and will start reading it later tonight along with some other links I have received. You've been very understanding and I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me


SO much information to process, it's going to take me some time but I think it will be worth it!



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by Miri08
reply to post by MamaJ
 


I've downloaded the PDF and will start reading it later tonight along with some other links I have received. You've been very understanding and I really do appreciate you taking the time to help me


SO much information to process, it's going to take me some time but I think it will be worth it!




You are so welcome. :-)

It's taken me so many years, countless hours of study and dedication.

As a lover of science I have to see the science of who we are. But mostly all subjects combined teach one a lot.

I like to ask why and then answer it for myself.

If I could make someone's journey better by shining my light on a heavy heart then that makes me feel good.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:18 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen
 


I'll have you know that I am for more analytical than most people my age. What you're implying is similar to saying that there will come a day when all the old people will hard of hearing, unable to use technology, and so reliant upon the younger generation that grandchildren will be paid wages to take care of the elders in their family.


I didn't say that I was talking about you, so no need to get defensive.

No, what I'm saying is that I have seen trends (not solely among young people, but it is far more prevalent there,) of intellectual laziness and, far more important, a lack of critical thinking, and that does not bode well, because when that becomes habitual, it is almost impossible to break out of.

It is disturbing to see people post things that are not merely incorrect, but insanely so, so far off the mark that whoever posted them just simply didn't think about the validity of it. I have seen people claim that Christianity was an invention of the Jews in the Middle Ages, that the Bible was completely rewritten in the 1600s, that a fictional family of Romans wrote the New Testament as a joke and more. Those are all examples of an absolute lack of critical thinking -- one doesn't even really need to have a knowledge of history to see the logical fallacies that make all three of those claims absolutely impossible.

My two areas of expertise are science and history, and those are two of the most misunderstood, underutilized and abused fields that there are, it seems. Science is often hijacked to foster some invalid belief, while history is ignored when it is in conflict with invalid beliefs.

Few people are universalists, so they are required to defer to authority sometimes, in fields where they have no expertise and are unwilling to take the time to develop it. That means that if, for example, one isn't a chemist, in matters of chemistry, one should accept the word of someone who does have that expertise, or, better yet, find a consensus view to accept.

But with enough training, anyone can become a critical thinker, able to discern whether something is valid or not (or leans in one direction or the other,) even in areas that they are not particularly well versed.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


Sorry to interrupt here, but... something about this reply confuses me.

You say that you are a "lover of science," and that many hours of dedicated research have lead you to where you are now. Yet, in earlier posts you talk about the validity and strengths of the Bible and how you follow your intuition which I assume means you trust your heart, and in this one I've just responded to you talk about emotional wellness. None of those are scientific things.

In fact, the understandings of science tend to go against your emotional-spiritual position, and have destroyed the illusion that emotions are anything more than chemicals being turned on and off by the brain. As well, our understanding of biology, evolution, history, and genetics goes in the face of Biblical teachings:

The first object of our solar system was the sun, not the waters and firmament.
Light did not exist upon Earth before the sun.
Men were not made from dust but evolved.
There was also, most likely, not just one man and one woman, but many.
The Earth cannot be viewed from on top of a single mountain.
The Earth is not flat and does not have pillars supporting it.
Man cannot part the Red Sea by magic.
There was never a mass Exodus of Hebrew's from Egypt.
Hebrew's did not slave away to build the pyramids.
Pi does not equal 3, a fact which Sumerians and Greeks knew, but God did not.
Virgin human beings cannot give birth.
Cursing a fig tree for not producing figs out of season is not very intelligent.

There are other areas where the Bible is wrong, as well as numerous times where it contradicts itself. As well, what of the Apocrypha? The 66 books of the common, standard Bible are nothing more than the ones which the council of Nicaea felt were most adequate for supporting the popular myths they were attempting to use to oppress their pagan citizenry.

To say you're "a lover of science" first, and then immediately suggest the Bible is scientific and that intuition and emotions are our guides through life is as magnificent an oxymoron as one can possibly arrive at.

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:24 PM
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reply to post by AfterInfinity
 


I will be back on in the morning.

I'm on the iPhone tonight and about to go night night but I will be back in the morning with my iPad!! Lol

I've never been a fan of quoting scripture unless it's something or the story is dear to my heart.

It even seems like ive already told you about Moses and Joshua.

Told you who to look up regarding Jesus many incarnations.

Related who I think the true Jews are... Let's see what else..?

I told you who the true Israel is and why too.

I've spoken to you also about Jesus going to prepare a place for us and remember the mansions?

I could go on and on and on about the threads we have shared together and you STILL don't know what it is I really believe you just know its unorthodox. Lol

I gave you my view of the creation story,..

And I've told you how I see the universe and all things expressing them self in some way.

I've expressed in length regarding matter and how we are at present stuck while incarnated.

Adam being a representative of mankind who was also Jesus?

This is just the beginning of what I can offer you.

See ya in the morning!! :-)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:30 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I like your stance, it's very refreshing to see someone who actively seeks to enrich their experience in this life. I just finished an afternoon lunch discussion with a friend on this same topic. Please don't make the mistake of thinking that an armchair understanding of a subject validates someone to speak on behalf of it though.

I have a fascination with particle and particle physics, but I am neither a standard physicist, nor a particle physicist. I understand the science behind it, and the breakdown of molecules into their subatomic particles and the like... but I still turn to those who are learned and specialized in the profession when I am discussing them.

That is how it should be too. If every armchair particle physicist spoke like they completely understood the ins and outs of particle physics, why would we need intellectual individuals who specialized, and devoted their lives to a study of, and further advancement in, that area of expertise?

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:48 PM
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reply to post by Wandering Scribe
 


No disrespect at all when I say this, you are stuck my friend.

Stuck in a way of thinking that's not me at all and frankly your assumptions all throughout your posts is the opposite of the way I think.

Read my posts more because this mind has tons of information at your disposal when it comes to this Universe, Mind, Particles, matter. DNA, human anatomy, light, clouds, dust, and on and on.

I'm not claiming to know it all but I feel as though I know more than people I talk to.

Seeking knowledge has been a hobby of mine for most of my forty years.

I was upset after my son died twenty years ago, put down my Bible, and told god I wanted him to talk to me outside that book because I didn't understand it, I'm upset and just please lead me. I said I'm going to the library and whatever you want me to read, I will read. I told him I'm hurt but one day I will come to the bible with a better understanding and so I did. I had read the bible twice from front to back, back then.

It's been a domino effect ever since and I found myself going back to the bible with a better understanding because I became a hard core student in search for God. There was five years I read five to ten books a week. I dug myself a hole in literature and my ex husband dug in the dirt.

It's therapy.....

You can't watch your kid in pain for five years and not be traumatized!!

We had preachers come to our house telling us it may have been my ex husbands fault as to why Joshua died.

The men of god who were around at the time were very disheartening and clueless so I wanted to know more.

My dad being a Methodist minister for ten years was when I was very young.

He quit, too much politics and he didn't believe in the ways they were supposed to teach the word.

Mythology is around for a reason...

Read Hermes!!



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 09:54 PM
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reply to post by Wandering Scribe
 


If I might be so bold, I have found the Khan Academy video series to be very helpful in learning about a number of different subjects -- he's a heck of a teacher, and with the way the videos are laid out, you can go as fast or slow as you like, rewatch videos or parts of them that you don't quite get, and I've yet to go through a lesson and end it scratching my head and saying "huh?"

Here's his physics section: Khan Academy Physics

Here I am, whining about YouTube one minute, singing its praises the next -- what a hypocrite I am!



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by Drala
If you find truth and god in your heart, it doesn't matter what anyone or any religion tells you...it's a test...can you feel your way through the illusion? I heard a good analogy about a homing pigeon...it fly back home on invisible magnetic fields...if it goes off course it feels anxiety and ALWAYS finds its way home like this...

The poor thing would be better off blind as often it has to fly over war to find its way back...unfortunately like the poor dove..we have to witness this on our way back to the garden...
edit on 9/11/2012 by Drala because: (no reason given)


The homing pigeon analogy really struck me and I have to thank you for it. Some things have happened recently in my life and it hit me kind of quickly that I really feel off course if you will. My original post did come off as trollish or close minded, I don't know what to call it, it came off bad anyway lol, but truth is I have been close minded where this is concerned and I think that's why I'm feeling off course to begin with. Not sure if that makes sense at all.

Example would be, I've always believed in the idea of god but I have no idea who or what god is. I was raised in a Christian household that read the bible like you would read gone with the wind or any other book, just read the words and take them at face value so when I read something like god came down and killed so and so (my poor attempt at paraphrasing) I don't really know how to take that. That's why I was asking others how they understand it. Because unfortunately I can't ask the family I was raised with.

But the people that didn't shoot me down because of my really bad OP have given me a lot of information and I'm hoping I find my way.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 11:46 PM
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reply to post by Miri08
 


Thank you for your open honesty in this post, and I can sympathize with your basis, and your past, which limits how you move forward. To that end, I'll give you a couple of ways by which your original question (leaving off the dictators) might be answered.

A Fundamentalist Christian, or Orthodox Jew, reads the Bible literally. Barring translation or transcription error, it is the word of God, in toto and indisputable. From other parts of the Bible, it is demonstrable (as the text is literal,) that God is ultimately righteous and just, so when we come upon an issue such as this, which we perceive to be an immoral act, such as the "Midianite massacre", the conflict must be resolved by stating that it was a moral act on the part of God, and we just don't understand it.

My ATS signature reflects this -- "In the end faith isn't about God meeting your expectations but you meeting his.", which means that God judges us, we don't judge him, because he understands us, we don't (necessarily) understand him.

In other words, it doesn't matter if you personally think that to be an immoral act, God cannot be immoral, so if that's what he did, it was moral, and the deficiency is your understanding, not anything God did.

However, though I keep that signature on ATS (it's something I wrote a long time ago, but which I still think is valid,) my personal perspective is that it doesn't apply here.

The other view to note is the non-literalist view, which says that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but isn't necessarily 100% literally accurate.

By that view, the Old Testament is a story, of the people of Israel, and their relationship to their revealed God, but it is, ultimately, a document created by man, and surely contains things which are not revelations of God. So we might have a passage that discusses, say, the Midianite massacre, but attributes behaviour to God that he didn't do, but was rather something that Israel did.

So, there are two options, as to refutation -- the first is that, whether we understand it or not, it was a just act, and the second is that the authors misinterpreted the actions of people as being actions of God. Either, I think, is a reasonable explanation.



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. As a layman or armchair physicist, I can glean a great deal of knowledge and understanding on a subject. I can never consider myself to be a true physicist though, because the course of study they undergo focuses specifically on physics, while mine divides the same time up between numerous other avenues.

I had a very eye-opening experience discussing medicine and herbal supplements with two nursing friends. I consider myself to be pretty knowledgeable about medicine, germ theory, diseases and the like. But they were discussing the mutation of germs, the growth of antibacterial something-or-other, and the effects of blood types on a variety of diseases and such... and it just went way over my head.

It was all portions of nursing and becoming a physician which require dedicated, intensive study. Not a series of YouTube videos and a rough framework of the history of the practice. I definitely could not trade places with my physician or optometrist.

Perhaps you do know, from Khan, everything there is to know about every subject though. But it's not something I've been capable of doing. I specialize in one place, with a great deal of knowledge in others. I do not think I know everything about anything though.

~ Scribe



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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reply to post by MamaJ
 


I see now that you're one of those people who believes that their perception of things supersedes the reality of them. I'm very sorry you're unable to differentiate between belief and fact. I remember being a teenager too though,and thinking that the world worked the way I imagined, as opposed to how it actually did. I learned a very vital lesson though when I graduated high school:

If your perception disagrees with the reality of a situation, it is not reality which needs to change, but your perception of it.

I never asked whether or not you lost a loved one. Nor did I ask about your personal struggles. But you brought them up. I recognize this as a crutch. You expect people to accept your understanding of the world because of the amount of suffering you've endured, and spiritual insights you gained from your suffering. That's an appeal to emotion, and it is a logical fallacy.

I never depend on the fact that I lost both my wife and my daughter to the same murder as a reason for people to accept my views and ideologies. Because they shouldn't. Losing the people I loved most in this life did not open any unseen doorways for me. It closed more than it opened. I lost knowledge of the avenues they could have taught me as I grew. I gained very little.

You sought Christ because you were in pain, because you suffered, and were upset that a Creator could have robbed you of something so important. I left God long before I lost my wife and child. I left God and Christ because they do not make sense; they are illogical and incomplete. Where you use them as a crutch, I discarded them for the same reasons: people turn to Christianity when they just do not understand.

Rather than do the work to learn the "why" and "how come" of things, they choose instead to believe in a "God of the gaps." We don't know why thing A happens... God did it. We don't know how process C occurs... God does it. This line of reasoning is irrational. Rather than admitting we don't know, which is the honest route, we choose to fill it with pipe dreams and candy-coated things because it makes us more comfortable.

I think that is where we differ, MamaJ. I was never comfortable with trading understanding for peace of mind. I would rather say "I don't know" then pretend to know. I cannot knowingly be intellectually dishonest. I am open to our lessons and knowledge, though. That was why I replied to you. I am not open to your pity and woe-is-me story though. When your material is faulty, I will call you on it.

You say "mythology is around for a reason," and this has caught my interest. I am a mythographer. I study the evolution of West Asian mythology. Sumerian, Egyptian, Mesopotamian, Levantine, Hebraic, Hattian, Anatolian, Indo-European, Roman and Christian to be precise. I would love to talk about the importance of mythology, the history of mythology, and from where Christian mythology arises. That is my regular course of study actually.

Anyway, I hope you do not take offense at anything I've said. I truly hope you're as honest as your words seem, and not just egotistical because you feel your suffering has made you wise. Let's talk, share with me the multitude of things you know about mythology and Christianity. I'll share with you the things I know too.

~ Wandering Scribe



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


I can't even tell you proper but your reply made me cry (in a good way mind you) - that was exactly what I wanted to know. I've been wanting to re-read the bible but felt like I had this barrier up because I didn't know HOW to read it and understand it. That probably seems stupid to some people but reading your reply about how a literal reading can be understood (and also a non literal reading) takes a weight off of me. It also helps me to feel more understanding towards the people that raised me and I really can't tell you what that does for me.

I know we started off bad but thank you, thank you, thank you.

EDIT:

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by Miri08
 

that God is ultimately righteous and just, so when we come upon an issue such as this, which we perceive to be an immoral act, such as the "Midianite massacre", the conflict must be resolved by stating that it was a moral act on the part of God, and we just don't understand it.

My ATS signature reflects this -- "In the end faith isn't about God meeting your expectations but you meeting his.", which means that God judges us, we don't judge him, because he understands us, we don't (necessarily) understand him.

In other words, it doesn't matter if you personally think that to be an immoral act, God cannot be immoral, so if that's what he did, it was moral, and the deficiency is your understanding, not anything God did.


This part is what really did it for me. It seems simple like "why didn't I think of this" but this is the part that I could not get at all. And it makes perfect sense. I'm thinking this is how the people that raised me probably thought and that makes me feel better about so many things. Like when I'm looking back remembering certain things they said and did , those things make more sense now in light of this right here. I seriously think you just did for me in one post what therapy hasn't been able to do for me in 18 years. From when I lost them at 9 years old certain things I could not understand. I'm not kidding, I feel like for the first time I understand them.


edit on 13-9-2012 by Miri08 because: (no reason given)





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