iPhone 5: Built on Slavery?

reply to post by longlostbrother

That's pretty much all BS.

Calm down and respect. That's the only warning you will ever get.

Ifyou crack a history book, and look at why labour first organised, it was because corporations CHOSE to make labourers work in dangerous conditions.

I'm sorry, but are you trying to teach me History while you clearly don't have a clue what you are talking about?

That's cute.

The first workers to organize and demand better conditions to work, were actually the one's that faced the realities - unknown until then - about industrial work. Prior to that, working in a factory with machines was Sci-Fi pop-culture.

Actually, it was with the post-Industrial age (1850 ->) that the minimum age to work was set, disregarding child labour as illegal and immoral.

It was also because of the new realities of working in factories that the first rights for workers started to emerge. Those realities were unknown until people actually started working in hot, claustrophobic and dangerous factories.

There was no government interference at all at that point, no labour laws to speak of and very marginal taxes.

Are you talking about the U.S.?

State legislation 1912–1918: 36 states adopted the principle of workmen's compensation for all industrial accidents. Also: prohibition of the use of an industrial poison, several states require one day's rest in seven, the beginning of effective prohibition of night work, of maximum limits upon the length of the working day, and of minimum wage laws for women.

Source

You are mashing History up - which is quite insulting, considering you are actually attempting to correct me - picking up what suits you, and then applying it completely out of context, both in world History and U.S. History.

Dangerous working conditions,

"Employees shall have the right to organize and bargain collectively through representative of their own choosing, and shall be free from the interference, restraint, or coercion of employers."

FDR (The President) - 1933

Child labour

The National Child Labor Committee, an organization dedicated to the abolition of all child labor, was formed in 1904. By publishing information on the lives and working conditions of young workers, it helped to mobilize popular support for state-level child labor laws.

Source

Slave labour

Slave labour? If you are going to talk about the conditions in which people worked in the early days of the Industrial Age, and that you consider that slave labour, it actually wasn't.

The conditions and the social consideration of the time were bad, but it wasn't slave work, literally. People just hand't fought for their rights yet.

You say you don't think there'd be slave labour in the US?

I guess your ideology doesn't call for you to learn history?

It's very clear which one of us lacks understanding in History.

Don't embarrass yourself. You know nothing about my ideology.

www.independent.co.uk...
www.nytimes.com...
www.antislavery.org...

I'm not even going to waste much more time arguing with you, I will just point out the emotion in your arguments and biased comments you make, by quoting your own source (the first link):

Though the scale of forced labour in US agribusiness is difficult to quantify because it is largely undetected, CIW estimates at any one time some 5 per cent of farm workers in the US are subjected to forced labour. In just the past 10 years there have been six federal prosecutions of Florida farm employers, affecting well over one thousand workers.

The majority of people affected are migrant workers from Mexico, Guatemala, and Haiti, with increasing rural poverty and political unrest driving their migration. Traffickers prey upon their vulnerability and desperation to find work, at times in their countries of origin, but in the majority of cases CIW has detected, once they have already crossed the border into the US.

You think that fewer regulation will make that go away?

Nonsense.

I mentioned fewer regulation for business, not for workers.

No regulations = slave labour
Regulations = less slave labour

That's what unions and right's movements are for, to fight for laws and rights that people deserve. What does that have anything to do with US internal law for business and trade?

Pretty basic stuff... unless you don't know history and extrapolate your beliefs from ideology.

That's cute.

reply to post by TrueBlood


I'm not arguing that. And I'm not going into - especially inside this thread - to address the prison system problems.

However, people often complain about prison inmates living inside a prison, after committing crimes and acts of violence, and being a burden to society.

Those factories inside prisons do resemble a slave factory, however, it's also a way to build productivity into a prison population that, otherwise, would be a much harder burden on society.

And although the actual work might seem slaverish in nature, a lot of inmates rather work inside prison over spending their time with less-than-desirable activities. Many labour programs inside the prisons actually help former criminals to get back into society as a productive member and citizen, which in my opinion, is a good thing.

The problem is with the people who don't deserve to be in prison - but are - and still have to do that kind of work. Or any of the other cases where prisons used inmate work - and even talent - for illegal profiteering.

It's much more complex, but I believe we agree on the nature of the problem.

this will only get better when we all help raise the standard of living for Chinese, Indian and all cheap labor milled workers across the globe. they are us and we are them whether anyone wants to admit that or not, we're all in this together.

until we help makes their living conditions better our living conditions will continue to deteriorate, it's that simple.

Originally posted by TrueBlood
reply to post by longlostbrother

 

This may surprise you but I actually don't own many electronics. I used to own a cell phone until I learned that you can't turn the new ones off. So i stopped using cell phones. I used to watch the tv until I learned the tv could be watching me. Microwave... well, we all need to eat. But I do hate the microwaves that talk back to me. "cook popcorn" "did you say pizza" NO I SAID COOK POPCORN "cooking pizza" *microwave asplods

Seriously though, who else am I supposed to vote for? Obama signed the NDAA and Romney was born with a silver spoon in his mouth. I'm sure mr. big business there really knows what the common man has to go through on a daily basis and just can't wait to bring all those jobs back home that him and his buddies probably shipped over there to begin with. I said it before, just because I support the guy doesn't mean I agree with everything that comes out of his mouth. It's either Johnson or not vote.

edit on 11-9-2012 by TrueBlood because: (no reason given)

Wait... just so we're clear....

The guy you ARE voting for idolises someone that you think should burn in hell... you're ok with that...

But Obama, because of NDAA and

Romney, because he's rich... that's unforgivable...?

You can't be serious here?

Gary Johnson thinks Child Labour laws should be revoked: Grand.
Romney has a rich dad: a step too far.

Johnson would ABSOLUTELY support US jobs being shipped overseas... it's in the Libertarian Party platform btw.

I think you're just voting based on a silly protest and not based on what Johnson (or Romney or Obama) actually believe.

The closest to your beliefs, that American jobs should be protected and that workers shouldn't be slaves, is actually Obama, btw.

Not Mr Outsourcer, or Mr ChildLabor.

Originally posted by OccamAssassin
This has already been posted.

Apparently it was done under a work experience scheme in collaboration with their school system.

It sounds sinister but it is a practice that is used around the world.

In Year 10 at high school we all did two weeks work experience for a piddly $25 per week.

In fourth year at Uni you do 3 months industry experience for a few hundred a week.

The money was never worth it, but the industry experience was worth its weight in gold.

No we didn't and not in those slave factories for 7 days a week 15-20 hour days with no bathrooms or kitchens, no one did it here.

Originally posted by benrl
Iphones along with almost every other major consumer electronic sold in the US.

As long as Americans want cheap electronics this will continue, take a stand and actually look into where your electronics are built.

Protest with your wallet, but be prepared to not own any of the latest gadgets, consumerism at its worst.

We have to stop buying some of these products but demand our paid public servant employees to make it impossible for that kind of exploitation and that any company going to exploit third world or any other countries citizens would have heavy heavy taxes on their products.

reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy


I never said the workers' conditions at the time of the industrial revolution was slave labor, just that it was the outcome of no regulation, something Libertarians believe in, explicitly.

They believe that laws that are "forced" on workers are wrong... that includes worker protection and the minimum wage.

Workers FOUGHT (as you said) for workplace safety standards and a minimum wage... owners have fought since... well basically forever, against these measures.

If you are ACTUALLY pro-worker, you're pro-minimum wage, etc.

You also nicely make the point that yes, workers fought for a minimum working age, not owners, and that minimum age was set and enforced by... you guessed it... the evil gubernment...

Libertarians, at the behest of the owners, would roll back those protections... via the government.

You're right that that a lot of these laws came into forced decades ago... but that's not at all an argument against them...?

Workers WANT protection, a working wage and job security.

Owners want to maximise profits.

You note that WORKERS never push to ship factories overseas...

You then say, well ok, there's slavery in the US, but it only affects migrant labour... but again, who hires them? US Agri-giants. US Corporations that CAN because the laws aren't enforced.

You seem to think that somehow removing the unenforced laws would in fact stop them from using slave labour... how that would happen requires Libertarians to fall back on, purely, ideology, as they have no historical precedents.

Finally, you go on and on about history, but never explain how any of it ACTUALLY justifies your believes.

Because history shows that WORKERS want the government to protect them.

Business OWNERS want to maximise profits by endangering and abusing workers.

That's history... and that abuse is what would AGAIN happen if Libertarians took power.

Luckily, that won't happen.

Nike rings a bell, as well as dozens and dozens of other American Companies. I just don't get it why everyone is only against Apple of late, Samsung is no better.

Just try to go to a Walmart, Meijer, CostCo, Home Depot, Lowes, or any other big box store and buy things that are not made in China (presumably using slave labor). It's impossible. As for everyone using Apple as the big bad slave master, as others have mentioned, every other large tech company in the world has the same practices. I guess everyone goes after Apple because they are the biggest right now. I'm not saying I'm for slave labor, but honestly, what can I do about it? It's not like I'm given a choice between "Made in the USA" and "Made in China" when I go to buy 95% of the things I get from the store. I suppose I could try to talk my wife into going Amish.

I heard on a UK radio station that for Apple to build their phones in the USA the phone cost would increase to consumers would by 10%. It may cost slightly more but people will still want the hottest gadgets and if more people are employed by such companies in USA surely demand will increase and the economy for the general population will surge

reply to post by longlostbrother

I never said the workers' conditions at the time of the industrial revolution was slave labor, just that it was the outcome of no regulation, something Libertarians believe in, explicitly.

They believe that laws that are "forced" on workers are wrong... that includes worker protection and the minimum wage.

You are talking to me, after calling my opinion BS. Stop pulling "libertarians" into this. It's pure nonsense and a constant deviation of the argument exchange.

Even so, what you said is wrong. I'm not even going to bother searching for more sources to back my claim because you don't even care to read them.

Workers FOUGHT (as you said) (...)

I didn't said it. History did. The same History you keep talking about.

(...)for workplace safety standards and a minimum wage... owners have fought since... well basically forever, against these measures.

If you are ACTUALLY pro-worker, you're pro-minimum wage, etc.

Business owners don't fight over safety standards and minimum wages. They fight over profit margins. Some accept to give away millions away in safety and insurance because they can. Others have small profit margins and don't - or can't - enforce those policies. There are even those who are in such bad shape they can't even make a profit, let alone afford those safety standards.

That's why protective laws exist. To make sure that a business has the minimum requirements in order to function safely, for their wealth and the health of the workers that are dependent on their ability to lead the business..

That, has nothing to do with economy legislation that is so dumb that forces large companies to think it's better to go outside of the US for production, instead of staying here and promoting their own backyard.

There was a time in US where the bigger consumers of the major companies were often the same people who worked there, and their families.

Libertarians, at the behest of the owners, would roll back those protections... via the government.

There you go again, replacing words and concepts where it fits your belief and opinion.

Removing business limitations inside the US doesn't force companies to take away protections to workers. It actually enforces them. A healthy business can pay more to their workers, which in turn are happy and function better, which makes a better final product and even raises local consumption.

Workers WANT protection, a working wage and job security.

Owners want to maximise profits.

You note that WORKERS never push to ship factories overseas...

Why would they? Unless they want to work outside of the US for the sightseeing, I don't see any reason to leave their home and families behind.

It was the constant pressures on big corporations to do this, and do that, - again, not related to worker safety - that forced them to go away. Instead of promoting growth, we promoted restrain and governmental involvement in everything.

They didn't left because they had to make workers happy. They left because they were being castrated gradually. Greed helped them make the decision to outsource production.

Supervision is not the same as involvement, and the first is more economical sound than the second.

You then say, well ok, there's slavery in the US, but it only affects migrant labour... but again, who hires them? US Agri-giants. US Corporations that CAN because the laws aren't enforced.

The exploitation of immigrants inside the U.S. is exactly the same system that exploits slave labour overseas. The reasons are also the same: too many and too heavy laws. Laws that don't protect anything in reality.

My evidence? Unemployment. Overprotecting did a lot for americans. Sadly it wasn't a lot of good.

You seem to think that somehow removing the unenforced laws would in fact stop them from using slave labour... how that would happen requires Libertarians to fall back on, purely, ideology, as they have no historical precedents.

You assume a lot.

And again, you keep talking about libertarians...

Finally, you go on and on about history, but never explain how any of it ACTUALLY justifies your believes.

I'm not here talking about my beliefs. You are.

And I also didn't brought up History. You did, calling me ignorant. It's not my fault your own arguments obliterated your opinion.

Because history shows that WORKERS want the government to protect them.

Workers protect them-selfs.

Business OWNERS want to maximise profits by endangering and abusing workers.

Yes, because we all know you can make a fortune by paying insurance and compensation for injuries.

Originally posted by Mkoll
If they didn't it would be even more expensive. Without cheap international labor the standard of living America is accustomed too would be impossible.

That is bull and you know it. Apple is making big profits. They could have done it differently but choose not to because of greed. They could have lowered the profit margin but choose to go for the full amount of profit with not giving back to the workers. It is the perfect example of egoparasitism of capitalism. If an owner of a coperation have a chance to make 9 billions (quarterly) than they go for the 9 billions even if at 7 billions people would have had a good life and at 7 billion people are suiciding.

CUPERTINO, California—July 19, 2011—Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2011 third quarter ended June 25, 2011. The Company posted record quarterly revenue of $28.57 billion and record quarterly net profit of $7.31 billion
CUPERTINO, California—July 24, 2012—Apple® today announced financial results for its fiscal 2012 third quarter ended June 30, 2012. The Company posted quarterly revenue of $35.0 billion and quarterly net profit of $8.8 billion, or $9.32 per diluted share

Humanity is clearly egoisticly insane and these are the people that are supposed to be the succesfull ones.

Originally posted by longlostbrother

Originally posted by TrueBlood
All I see is people worship Steve Jobs and this is the vulture-like cut throat business model that he used. This is how he made his billions. Slave labor. Steve Jobs was nothing more than a modern day slave master and, here's the kicker, he couldn't even donate a single cent to charity on his death bed. I don't even want to hear this "he made it himself he can do what he wants with it" because that's bull. He didn't make a dime. He used slaves to make his fortune. I hope to God he's burning in hell right now.

Go ahead and try and rid your house of things not made by slaves...

Then get off your high horse and realise Jobs simply did what every other manufacturer did.

The funny thing is that when I was younger I hated Bill Gates and liked Steve Jobs. Now I kinda feel indifferent to Bill Gates because he does some good sometimes but could not care less for Steve Jobs.

But of course Bill should screw up my faith in him with this: blog.seattlepi.com...

Originally posted by Expat888
20+ hr workdays 7 days a week .. no holidays.. no sickdays.. no ot.. subhuman living conditions 25-50 people crammed into a tiny room .. insufficient sanitary facilities.. no cooking facilities... paid less than what 1 damn idiot phone sells for a month.. high suicide rate per month.. all so stupid fat lazy westerners can have the latest overhyped..overpriced idiot device... apple has the worst conditions of all companies in china .. asia to work under...

edit on 10/9/12 by Expat888 because: drunken tengu causing havoc...

Source?

we all know what's going on all over the world and someone already mentioned it.. "out of sight, out of mind" we, the consumers, are the solitary reason these slave/sweat shops even exist. the answer is extremely simple and if you have to ask you're in denial more than you realize. this angers me more than most issues because children are involved and i also feel like a hypocrite sitting here on my pc because i'm sure a lot if not everything i have and use on a daily basis has something to do with this problem.

Originally posted by n3mesis
we all know what's going on all over the world and someone already mentioned it.. "out of sight, out of mind" we, the consumers, are the solitary reason these slave/sweat shops even exist. the answer is extremely simple and if you have to ask you're in denial more than you realize. this angers me more than most issues because children are involved and i also feel like a hypocrite sitting here on my pc because i'm sure a lot if not everything i have and use on a daily basis has something to do with this problem.

and that's it in a nutshell... none of us has any right to REALLY point fingers as well all enjoy the fruit of the (child/slave) labor...

the entire western economy is based on cheap crap... and china is losing money hand ovre fist now to cheaper countries, which is one of the reasons they're moving into Africa... to make that the next China, in the cheap labor sense...

And guess what... just like in China, tons of Africans would welcome any job at all...

When you use commerce to spread politics and economic ideology, well... a lot of people are gonna get hurt... if you use government it may never happen, or only happen as a by-product of wars, etc.

The other reality is that this... paradigm... cheap labor for rich countries crap... has an end, but no one is planning for it... The Chinese know they need to be consumers if they don't want to collapse, but guess what... there's finite places one can get the cheap labor necessary to feed the rich countries appetite for cheap crap... and there's limited resources to make the cheap crap with...

What in the world will society be like in 200 years?

fingers crossed!

In 200 years, I imagine there being one currency and different minimum rates per country decided on the safety of work, living cost, and goods produced.

Slave labor will ALWAYS exist when there are different economies. Especially when a country with a currency much lower rated than ours exists. It's just business to produce there. You would most likely do the same thing to make more money and expand your business. None of you have ever been the head of a corporation, so how can you say what choice you would make, when confronted with the decision of outsourcing? A choice between going to another country to produce, and make massive profit, or stay domestic and find other ways to profit?

The whole world economy is f***** up right now, mostly due to outsourcing.

I do not condone slave labor, but do you know how hard it is to live without a slave made product?
You get labeled as a psychopath or a sociopath because you go against the grain of modern society.

Beautiful world we live in, until you see the Humans

Shame on anyone here who truly believes the companies are doing this to benefit any of the consumers. Yes they do this to keep the prices down... for them. Lower manufacturing costs equals greater profits... for them. You don't really believe that new Macbook of yours is worth the 1200 you paid for it do you? Just make something shinier, prettier and a bit easier to use and people think it's the best thing in the world. A shame.

reply to post by Mkoll

If they didn't it would be even more expensive. Without cheap international labor the standard of living America is accustomed too would be impossible.

No, corporate profits would be less, they would still have to sell their products within a reasonable price range otherwise nobody would by it. Apple is one of the richest companies on the planet, they don't need to use slave labor to make a profit, they choose slave labor because of corporate greed.

Sent from my iPhone

Originally posted by Vandettas

Originally posted by Expat888
20+ hr workdays 7 days a week .. no holidays.. no sickdays.. no ot.. subhuman living conditions 25-50 people crammed into a tiny room .. insufficient sanitary facilities.. no cooking facilities... paid less than what 1 damn idiot phone sells for a month.. high suicide rate per month.. all so stupid fat lazy westerners can have the latest overhyped..overpriced idiot device... apple has the worst conditions of all companies in china .. asia to work under...

edit on 10/9/12 by Expat888 because: drunken tengu causing havoc...

Source?

witnessed firsthand... had two friends that worked there commit suicide due to the inhumane conditions apple employees have to endure.
will never purchase or use a damn apple product.