Practically Perpetual motion machine via Superfluid helium fountain waterwheel

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

A perpetual motion machine doesn't have to "last" forever, only ( who made up these silly rules - Oh yeah..

People who invented the English language as it specifically defines something. Something that is inherently impossible in normal physics, but something none the less...

reply to post by hawkiye


The math for flight wasn't fully understood until just recently. But then we had practical examples which was far more telling. I'm not sure why this matters.

Care to show us a practical perpetual motion machine?

why do these threads keep appearing here?

Don't you know by now that ATSers are the most ignorant people on the net.

Hell you'll get a better discussion from GLP than from here.

Too many here bury their heads in sand, and assume everything has been discovered already, a hundred years ago, and that we couldn't possible discover anything new.

Maybe the power created by the perpetual motion could power a unit that maintains the cold tempurature of the heleium?

reply to post by SpearMint
Ummmm tell that to your characture!

And there we have another thread confusing impulse/energy conservation with perpetual motion machines.

AFAIK "perpetual motion machines" are understood as machines that do work indefinitely/perpetually (to overcome friction for example).

A body moving at a constant velocity is not a perpetual motion machine but a consequence of conservation laws. This body can only do a finite amount of work (equal to its energy). The conservation laws describing this behavior are not coming from anywhere but can be derived from the observation of symmetries in a (physical) system. When someone is stating that perpetual motion machines are impossible he usually means within the bounds of physics, as such devices would violate this very basic conservation laws.

Now whether one chooses to accept and apply physics to a system is up to him/her of course. But it should be made clear by him/her to establish a common discussion ground and avoid confusion.

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Care to show us a practical perpetual motion machine?

Wow the ability to miss the obvious never ceases to amaze me. We live on one genius...

reply to post by hawkiye


Re-read the post above you.

Originally posted by hawkiye

Originally posted by boncho
reply to post by hawkiye

 

Care to show us a practical perpetual motion machine?

Wow the ability to miss the obvious never ceases to amaze me. We live on one genius...

To put it simply, perpetual motion machines have been marketed to investors since the days of Di Vinci

Leonardo decided against investigating perpetual motion any further after he wrote (in mirror writing) beside the designs – “for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction” (the machines will not work). That quote is also Isaac Newtons Third Law of Motion, 150 years before Newton was born!!!

www.leonardodavincisinventions.com...

Di Vinci never really chased the idea because he saw problems in it. Yet he was smart enough to design a glider that would later let people jump off the side of a mountain to experience flight for a brief period.

www.bl.uk...

Flight became a practical experience, with the Wright brothers and Balloons, and other contraptions. In no way has a "perpetual motion machine" ever become practical.

Although, explaining nuclear power to someone from a few hundred years ago, they may be convinced you really did find one.

In short, there are, is, haven't been any/no working perpetual motion machines beyond any math we have. Flight took some time for math/physics to catch up, but it finally did.

Fundamentals did not really change with it though....

reply to post by boncho

Flight became a practical experience, with the Wright brothers and Balloons, and other contraptions. In no way has a "perpetual motion machine" ever become practical.

LOL And how many centuries before De Vinci was the same thing said about flight as you are now saying about perpetual motion... Good thing De Vinci and the Wrights etc did not think like you.

The earth has been in perpetual rotation for million of years. That proves it is possible. Just because it has not been figured out how to do it by man (that we know of) yet does not make it impossible.

I laugh hard at the cultists who think they have it all figured out and that they understand the math and there couldn't possibly be any more to it. The legacy of Science is that generation upon generation has smashed many of their precious cultist beliefs that something was impossible.

The fact that you even try to deny that the Earth planets and solar system are perpetual motion machines in the face of daily demonstration that they are speaks volumes of your blind cultist religious scientific dogma... Go ahead keep embarrassing yourself as I am sure you will, i need not continue responding to such ignorance.

Originally posted by mardukiscoming
reply to post by SpearMint

 

I agree.And even if someone was able to somehow build a true perpetual motion machine,that person would soon thereafter meet with a mysteriuos,untimely death,and all their reseach would vanish.

That is the real conspiracy here. For those ATS newbys that have never read about Isaac Newtons mental breakdown in 1675. I will try to give a brief recap but doubt I can do it justice.

Almost universally the problem with these perpetual motion machines is that the analysis gets taken out of actual in situ reality and becomes flawed and misinterpreted. The Newton incident is a classic and worth revisiting since we can gain perspective with historical distance.

Isaac Newton In response to a letter from Hooke, suggested that a particle, if released, would spiral in to the center of the Earth. Hooke wrote back, claiming that the path would not be a spiral, but an ellipse.

Its left to the reader to visualize the gravity well that would be involved and it would be easy to make the common mistake of trying to analyze the problem from within a simple one dimensional polar model of the Earths gravity well.

In that situation the position of the particle under analysis in the oversimplified well would experience the same gravitational acceleration anywhere along any polar ring of potential. A particle moving at orbital velocity would theoretically orbit forever in perpetual motion. A slightly slower moving particle would spiral down into the gravity well using the energy it received from the change in gravitational potential to increase its forward velocity until a new equilibrium orbit was reached.

The real problem with the analysis is that a particle physics is assumed, you would have to model your gravity well with pinpricks of discreet microgravity around the atoms that make up the Earth as though they were still there in place. Newton was known to use a telescope so he could have taken some inspiration from the rings of Saturn and enlightened the scientists of his day. History makes him sound like a dumb ass that was too busy watching Jupitors moons.

I doubt whether Newton fell into some great Maelstrom of mental illness. My guess is that Newton was smarter than that. He probably cut off his eer and went inside like Van Gogh to paint Starry night. Newton waited till after Hookes death to publish his fourth volume Opticks.

Originally posted by SpearMint
We have never thought flight was impossible, because other species can fly, it was just a matter of how we can achieve it, and the Wright brothers figured it out. I don't think you quite understand these laws, perpetual motion is clearly impossible, it cannot exist. Also, If you are insulted by phrases like "smart ass" then you need to get a grip, quite right you can be a smart ass all you want, but it doesn't make you right.

Perpetual motion is perpetual motion, I don't know what you mean by a "practical sense", if it's not literally perpetual motion, then it isn't perpetual motion.

As the above poster pointed out, the first flight was 109 years ago, in 1903.

edit on 10-9-2012 by SpearMint because: (no reason given)

Sorry, but you are wrong.

Plenty of people thought Human flight was impossible, just as plenty of SCIENTISTS thought that travel at the speed of sound was IMPOSSIBLE. There is documentary evidence that the scientific community once thought that Humans would go insane if they traveled any faster than 100 mph.

I love science, but I hate the arrogance of the scientific community limiting exploration and research based on the ideas of another. True science is completely boundless and limitless, open to imagination without restriction. The moment a scientist states that something is impossible I see them as a fraud.

NOTHING is impossible. All TRUE scientists should believe that.

reply to post by hawkiye

The earth has been in perpetual rotation for million of years. That proves it is possible. Just because it has not been figured out how to do it by man (that we know of) yet does not make it impossible.

I laugh hard at the cultists who think they have it all figured out and that they understand the math and there couldn't possibly be any more to it. The legacy of Science is that generation upon generation has smashed many of their precious cultist beliefs that something was impossible.

The fact that you even try to deny that the Earth planets and solar system are perpetual motion machines in the face of daily demonstration that they are speaks volumes of your blind cultist religious scientific dogma... Go ahead keep embarrassing yourself as I am sure you will, i need not continue responding to such ignorance.

I apologize if English is not your first language, but as I posted the definition of perpetual earlier in the thread, you are still having a hard time grasping the concept.

Your English skills are weak, thereby making the rest of your comprehension weaker.

Perpetual motion is impossible because of very real physical factors, that are proven over and over again. Essentially if we awoke one day and up was down and down was up, you might be onto something. But until then, anything that seems "perpetual" will have an explanation for it, thereby negating the whole "perpetual-ness" of it.

As I said, bring nuclear technology back to Di Vinci, and just imagine what people of that era would think of you. Because of their limited understanding, you could just about tell them anything... Then we would be even more confused about the world around us.

It's my belief that if there IS perpetual motion or something that breaks our laws then it will be beyond the limits of modern day science. It will be smaller than the smallest thing we can currently observe or bigger than the biggest thing we can currently observe. Wherever it's, it's outside our present day observation limits. I could be wrong about this, but I think that our knowledge follows our ability to measure. As our ability to measure increases, our knowledge increases, and the chances for our laws to be disproven increases in tandem. I think we greatly exaggerate our significance.

A lot of chips will have to appear on the (formerly) pristine face of science, though.

We shouldn't forget that science is the best form of consensus and accuracy, but it's not perfect knowledge. It's still prone to human error and/or human dysfunction.

This article explores the issue further by examining the spotlight effect:
discovermagazine.com - Why Scientific Studies Are...

We look back over the past 100 years and we feel fairly certain about Special Relativity. But when we look back 1000 years, we see more and more instances of science being wrong. How can we be sure about our theories over the past century until we've given ourselves another 1000 years to judge their firmness more accurately? I do not believe that suddenly science has become infallible over the past century. If we were to believe that, we'd be committing the same error as our forebears.

Of course, I give more credibility to Special Relativity than most other things.

But it's not the bible. I won't forget that, either. We should always be aware of this.

reply to post by pryingopen3rdeye


You're always going to get beaten with a psychological stick trying to encourage people to think about alternative interpretations and methods of physics...most possessing learning of current paradigms, unfortunately simply can't bear to contemplate they have become proficient in an inferior understanding of the workings of things and so they reject it out of hand.

Always have, and always will. Cognitive Dissonance, is the technical term...i call it delusional arrogance, but what it's called and why it happens is pretty much unimportant...it's the norm for our species it seems.

It takes a certain special kind of person to actively imagine a radically different approach to the way things could be engineered tomorrow, and go ahead along the path that may or may not bear fruit.

It takes a very average kind of person to imagine they are at the absolute zenith of all possible discovery and knowledge and strive to support their own inferior position and so maintain the quagmire of dogmatic science and teaching.

You'll continue to be attacked i'm afraid, as will anyone else who cares to infringe upon intellectual vanity of the 'learned average' and the self-imposed straight-jacket of dogmatic science. Your grammar will be picked apart, a typo here or there will be smugly pointed out as if to somehow prove you're 'not worthy', circular expressions and arguments will be endlessly displayed by the parrot fraternity, and you'll only see brief glimpses of honest appreciation of your ideas and concepts.

Good luck with your thinking and any experiments, real world or not, successful or not....humanity needs many more like you, and a lot less of the average types, however intelligent and educated they may or may not be.

Mr. and Ms. Average thinker will more than likely never do anything of true merit to humanity, naturally, though rarely an individual here and there may stumble upon some discovery or other by accident, but only the free thinkers and the dreamers throughout history are likely to make the truly great discoveries that have a profound affect upon us and our world..that's why we remember only a comparative few of them from our past.