Sleep Paralysis: Can it have a demonic aspect to it?

Originally posted by digital01anarchy
rational explanation for SP makes sense to people who haven't gone through it which is totally understandable. Its a whole different beast when it happens to you and the rational explanation seems lacking. 99 percent of the time people are scared when they wake up why? This is even before you realize you cant move. Add in the fact that you are totally aware of your surroundings. I was in a bed and was positioned in a way i could see the tv I knew what was on, The sensation of hands over your mouth and temperature of the room I could recall, hallucinations are not normally that detailed. The fear is overpowering I couldn't explain it you people who have not had SP. Its a fear at your very core. I have had close calls where i almost died and even then I wasn't as afraid as i was in that moment I had SP.

Its like you want to see what the hell is going on but your body knows better and will not let you move. Here is my take on this. Lets say you had an awesome dream you wake up not afraid and are aware of everything but you cant move you know you have had SP before so you know it will pass. This reality never happens you always wake up fearful and totally aware. If it was external stimuli that caused you to suddenly wake up and not be able to move humans would have never died off years ago. If it was just the brain waking up before the body you would have the ability to control the fear because your aware. something is amiss

The only thing that is amiss is a mis/lack of understanding of whats going on by those who are in fear. Ive had SP many times, but Ive always known its nothing to fear, and always goes away. So far, as far as I know for myself, and all others at all times, it has faded, 100% of the time leaving no harm to the individual.

Perhaps the fear arises from the lack of control. Im not sure how many of you are into AP or WILD, but the need to be in control at all times is going to greatly hinder you in those two things... or really, anything in life.

I really dont think this is an ethereal kind of fear being projected onto a person. Its coming from the individual, for individual reasons, 99.99% of the time.

Again, next time you all have SP, dont freak out... use it as an opportunity to observe without expectation instead. See how that changes the experience. After all, there is no possible way you could possibly be harmed by just waiting, and observing.

Originally posted by AnonUK
I think that lucid dreams and OBE's attract spirits (good and bad) think about it, Our bodies are vessel's and our mind controls the machine.
If our Mind wonders off then what can fill the machine/vessel.

That will never happen. Ever.

You OBE every single night anyway, even if you dont remember it. How many people do you know that have gone to sleep one day, and were possessed the next? Im guessing none. OBE doesnt work like that, and that notion is used as a fear tactic to prevent people from exploring the other side.

Refer to digitalanarchy's post for a backstory to what I'm about to add. Couldn't find his/her post to quote, so I'm rolling on with it.

Anyway, the feeling of an actual entity physically restraining you to the point of helplessness...could it be an exceptionally powerful but inexperienced OBE experimenter? Someone who is unaware that they're are having a real effect, and so they're playing around or not paying attention?

I personally don't believe in actual demons, but I do believe in negative energies and subconscious attacks on other people...attacks than can be very, very real.

Other than that, I don't know what to say on this subject. I'm fairly certain that if doctors can treat it, scientists must have a fairly good grasp of the cause. Otherwise, you can't fix something if you don't know what's wrong. If you're not satisfied with the explanation, get a degree? I really don't know.

reply to post by CaticusMaximus


I have projected out of the body once and it was not my intention. To be bluntly honest it scared the crap out of me and put me off to the whole OBE deal. Image doing that at 15 without trying or knowing about OBE. What i did notice is that the fear of not being able to get back into the body snapped me right back into my body lol.

Since I have had both an OBE and SP i can tell you they are not the same not even close. Ps I'm totally aware how crazy this sounds to people who have had neither a SP or OBE.

You don't have control over SP's and they are not an OBE, you are combining two totally different states of mind. SP make you hyper aware while OBE let you view things from a different angle in relation to where your actual eyes are ie ceiling looking downwards, In an OBE the spirit and mind follow each other this is a direct contradiction of your definition where the spirit is away but the mind stays in the body which doesn't happen in an OBE.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
Refer to digitalanarchy's post for a backstory to what I'm about to add. Couldn't find his/her post to quote, so I'm rolling on with it.

Anyway, the feeling of an actual entity physically restraining you to the point of helplessness...could it be an exceptionally powerful but inexperienced OBE experimenter? Someone who is unaware that they're are having a real effect, and so they're playing around or not paying attention?

I personally don't believe in actual demons, but I do believe in negative energies and subconscious attacks on other people...attacks than can be very, very real.

Other than that, I don't know what to say on this subject. I'm fairly certain that if doctors can treat it, scientists must have a fairly good grasp of the cause. Otherwise, you can't fix something if you don't know what's wrong. If you're not satisfied with the explanation, get a degree? I really don't know.

By the way I'm a him. In relation to what you wrote about the OBE experimenter are you suggesting it was someone AP projecting into my reality then physically restraining me or is it my inability to understand how to use an OBE properly?

If the answer is the first one where someone who was in an OBE decided to physically restrain me then people who are very skilled at astral projection should be able to move physical object while in that state. If the answer is number two why did i see the room from the same perspective and was hyper aware?

Maybe they tried to enter into someone else's body? Maybe that's why I couldn't move but that doesn't explain the hand over my mouth and weight on my body? Astral projection possession? what about the silver string " i never saw it when i had my obe" locking that person to their body?

I'd like to share my experience if I may?

I was once awakened from sleep, very suddenly, by a "sixth sense" that something was very wrong.
The hairs were standing up on my arms and back of my neck... "alarm bells" were ringing in my head...
"WAKE UP... YOU'RE IN DANGER... WAKE UP!!!" (Not voices, just a feeling or sensation of danger)
So, I snapped wide awake in, what felt like an instant, and scanned the room to find the source of danger.

A huge bee was crawling up my bed covers, about 12 inches from my face. Another 3 or 4 seconds and it would have been right at my chin.

I must have heard it in my sleep? or just sensed that it was there, and my "sixth sense" survival instinct kicked in to wake me and keep me safe.

I've only ever experienced that "WAKE UP! YOU'RE IN DANGER!" thing a couple of times that I'm aware of.

and it was the other one (detailed below) which ended up in, what is often referred to as an episode of sleep paralysis.

I cannot emphasise enough here the time-line of events:
I was sound asleep.
I heard / sensed danger and was THEN quickly roused from sleep.
(My waking up was as a direct result of the threat of danger - EXACTLY like the episode with the bee)
On waking, my "alarm bells" were ringing, "SOMETHING IS WRONG!!" Hairs were standing on end etc.
It was then that I froze in terror as I realised that something was moving in the hallway, outside my room.
I HEARD it moving. I heard it's heavy foot-falls, it's deep resonating breaths. I could track it's movement up and back down my hallway by the sounds it was making. It felt HUGE, like the size of a bull or large bear and I was overcome by a sense of dread and "evil".

It was THEN, and only THEN, that I opened my eyes but found that I was actually physically paralysed - unable to move. (My eyes being fixed on a single point on the ceiling, also unable to move.)
i.e. The "presence" was NOT manifested as a result of fear, from waking up paralysed. The paralysis only became evident AFTER I was awakened by the danger of the "presence".

Over the next couple of minutes, the "presence" drifted into my room (through the still-closed door), paused at the foot of my bed, then drifted slowly across the foot of my bed from left to right, and finally out of the (closed) window to the right of my bed. (I say "drifted" because I don't remember hearing foot steps at this time, just a sense of where it was.)
I was immediately able to move again, and the sense of evil dissipated very quickly.

It was a truly terrifying experience and I agree with the other posters here who indicated that it felt very menacing, like pure "evil".
I do not know what caused the experience.
I do not have a specific belief in the "demonic" as such.
I am not religious.
I was not under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
I was not under any undue stress.
I was not experiencing any strange sleep patterns.

I just wanted to point out that, from my perspective of my experience, the SP was triggered by a sense of danger - not the other way round.
I don't know if it's relevant or not, but the window where the "presence" left from, overlooks the approach to an old church?

GTD

reply to post by Wandering Scribe


No, I am not suggesting SP is caused by any demonic or evil forces! I am sorry you misunderstand this.

I am saying that during SP a perception of pure evil is absolutely present. I am saying that this perception arises from within the mind itself. As we experience different emotions there are different chemicals at work that cause the feelings we feel.

While it can be frightening to awake imobilized, especially if it is a first time experience, the level of fear present during SP is much more than immobilazation would warrant.

Sure, I will buy that the fear is 100% created by waking paralisis in the 1st experience. What about the 2nd, the 3rd, the fourth, etc, etc?

Once again, you seem to misunderstand me. The fear does arise from the perception of pure evil nearby, or even in visual manifestation. Does this mean there is an evil entity present in the room - one that can be witnessed and experienced by a 3rd party person? No.

Does this mean that the evil is not real? No.

The only thing the evil presence or entity needs to be real is a perception of the experiencer. While even in the experiencer's world the demonic presence/entity can not physically touch them, the emotions produced from the evil entity are absolutely real.

While a 3rd party's perspective will suffer no emotional effect or evidence from the evil presence felt by the experiencer, proving to them the entity is not real - and it is not real to them.

However, because the experiencer is... well... experiencing their event, the evil presence and entity are absolutely, 100% real - resulting in the heightened terror and panic.

The feeling of an unnkown evil presence nearby is an absolute hallmark of a large majority of SP experiences.

There are no magic beings causing SP, but there are evil entities or perceptions that manifest in SP - regardless of what you believe you have learned through morals or whether or not you believe they exist in reality - which in this case the question must be, 'Who's reality'?

Morality is not a totally learned emotion, just as fight or flight is not a learned mechanism. The ability to discern between right and wrong is something everyone is capable of, from the earliest stages of consciousness.

At what point in human history did the knowledge of right and wrong appear?

The Morality Instinct

Many people assume that morality — our sense of what is “right” and just in this world versus what is wrong — is something we formulate through a process of time, experience and thinking. We equate morality with higher reasoning and not a base instinct like hunger or the need for shelter.

New research out from the University of Toronto suggests that perhaps such thinking is wrong...

The researchers used a technique of measurement of facial muscles contraction using electrodes.

The researchers focused on movement of the levator labii muscle, which acts to raise the upper lip and wrinkle the nose, movements that are thought to be characteristic of the facial expression of disgust. They found activation of this region in all three study situations.

The researchers said,

“However, disgust is an ancient and rather primitive emotion which played a key evolutionary role in survival. Our research shows the involvement of disgust in morality, suggesting that moral judgment may depend as much on simple emotional processes as on complex thought.”

I find it fascinating to imagine that constructs — such as morality — we previously thought of as artificially human-created are actually, in some manner, hard-wired into our brains. Could this just be the result of hundreds of generations of human evolution that has determined that such a morality wiring is beneficial to the survival of the species? Or some artifact of the thought processes involved in making morality judgments?


Read Full Article Here

Evil is absolutely an emotion, to think otherwise lends to a suspicion the evil is misunderstood at it's core. The fact that evil is an adjective allows many emotions to be described as evil. To define evil as simply 1 emotion can not be done, but does not mean it is not an emotion. It means that there are many emotions that can be related as evil.

Evil as an emotion in general encompasses the wicked, immoral part of someone.

Another way to describe it as emotion would be the example;

Someone treats you in a way to arouse evil thoughts or thoughts of wicked retaliation.

Evil does not arise from a need to describe a moral event. In it's form as an emotion, Evil drives a person to go against their instinct of right and wrong, driving them to perform otherwise horrible acts.

A few years ago i had a sp experience involving a demonic, evil force.

Woke in the night with a feeling of dread and horror, sensing an evil presence in the room. I felt it holding
me with its energy but didn't try to move. Got a spiderish feeling from it and knew from a previous event that
spiders attack from above.

So I looked up, the "spell" broken. There was a truly ugly, freaky spider demon staring down at me from the roof. It was sitting on a big blood spot from a huge mosquito I killed earlier.

Looked and felt real to me. Damn spider demons.

reply to post by NarcolepticBuddha


Look, my quarrel is not with having belief. I have my own set of beliefs as well. My quarrel is with offering beliefs in place of verified understanding. We know what causes sleep paralyses, and hypnogogia, and the hypnic jerk. Why would we want to suddenly attribute it spirits that may, or may not exist, when we know what causes it? That's taking us backward in time. Away from the age of enlightenment, and the scientific Renaissance, and back toward the Dark Ages and the belief that schizophrenia was caused by demons.

By all means, if you can present a testable hypothesis which involves demons, angels, or spirits, then let us know. There are thousands of people, organizations, and institutions who would love to have a testable hypothesis which they can run experiments with. Because, you know, they can test the hypothesis we currently have for sleep paralyses. So, let us know when you have one.

Oh, also, here: how anesthesia works, as well as why it works, and what each different chemical is doing during the process. So, I'd say it's safe to assume your anesthesiologist just didn't want to explain it to you, or he himself didn't know at the time. We certainly do know though, and have known for some time.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by esteay812


You're attempting to redefine what constitutes real. Real as a term relates to objective things, it is not a subjective term. If an individual experiences something, but two other witnesses do not, then what the original experiences is called fantasy, implying something fantastic, or imaginary. Our minds are susceptible to both reality and fantasy though, which is where your argument seems to arise from. Just because the brain responds to it, does not mean it is real.

If you walk into a dark cave, cut off all light, and start thinking about monsters living in there, your brain may begin to activate the chemical responses which come along with being stalked by a predator. This does not mean the predator is real, or that the response is validated. It means you tricked your brain with fantastical things. If you altered your statement to reflect the fact that the recipient thinks his experience is real, I would be more inclined to agree.

But, by the same token, just because we think something is real, does not mean it is so. For decades people thought they were visited and abducted by beings from Venus who lived in fruitful garden paradises. To these people their fantasies were real. However, we now know Venus is a poisonous hunk of rock super-heated by it's propinquity to the sun. What these people experienced was not real, no matter how much they believed it was.

As for people suffering sleep paralysis who see figures... For the record, I did not always see figures in the eight years I suffered from it. More common for me were auditory hallucinations, such as soft music, and feminine voices calling my name. When I did see figures they were actually rather bemusing. Typically a tall white "woman" who had some kind of reddish-brown hair, and stood in the corner of my room. She looked like she was trying to play a piano that I could never see.



Your article does not denote "evil" at all, but disgust. If you believe that what disgusts you is evil, then you're extremely narcissistic. When a homophobic individuals' lips and nose crinkle in disgust, does that means that homosexuality is evil? No, not at all. It means exactly what I stated: morality is subjective, and based entirely on our own personal response to a situation. To someone who is disgusted by homosexuality, then homosexual behavior will be "immoral" and "evil."

But one individuals' view does not reflect absolute morality. Even your explanation that "evil" leads us to abandon our moral inhibitions, I do not agree.

If someone attempted to murder your father or mother, and you killed him, would it be "evil" which caused you to murder the attacker? Not at all. You are not a "murderer" by nature just because you killed someone in self-defense.

If you happened upon a rape in progress, and you savagely beat the offender, would it be "evil" which caused you to assault the rapist? Of course not. You are not, by nature, abusive and violent, because you stood up for your values and beliefs.

There are no absolute morals. Our morality is based on what we're raised to believe is pleasurable or offensive. And those things are taught to us. Unless you're of the kind who believe racism is a gene...

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by esteay812

 

You're attempting to redefine what constitutes real. Real as a term relates to objective things, it is not a subjective term. If an individual experiences something, but two other witnesses do not, then what the original experiences is called fantasy, implying something fantastic, or imaginary. Our minds are susceptible to both reality and fantasy though, which is where your argument seems to arise from. Just because the brain responds to it, does not mean it is real.

The only group attempting to redefine what constitutes real is science, because they are the only ones besides religious institutions that can pull it off.

Science does not know a lot of things like what a particle is, an electron, gravity which is why 90% of science is pure theory. What science does is use simple test like dropping two balls of different wight out of tower to prove that their fantasy explanations of what they don't understand like gravity are. The balls hit the ground at the same time see! so I know that my theory on gravity is correct theoretically. But what gravity is they just don't know, and say so but at the same time demand to be theoretically correct there for attempting to redefine what constitutes as real.

Any scientist will tell you that they have no idea why people get SP but they create fantasies about it being because our body has genetic codes that keep us from sleep walking and such because back in the day as monkeys we needed to not fall out of trees while sleeping.

Another thing science does is refute evidence to it's liking. Any creature, angel, or dark silhouette standing over you is hallucination even if people who get SP see the same hallucination in many cases.

science will always be in the dark ages like when they used to lobotomize children because they acted up and did not pay attention. The same with house wives who felt depressed let alone people who say daemons and such.

We as humans live in many dimensions beyond the 4th and at the low level of understanding of these dimensions what is real cannot be objective put rather what is real is more correctly always subjective.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
If you walk into a dark cave, cut off all light, and start thinking about monsters living in there, your brain may begin to activate the chemical responses which come along with being stalked by a predator. This does not mean the predator is real, or that the response is validated. It means you tricked your brain with fantastical things. If you altered your statement to reflect the fact that the recipient thinks his experience is real, I would be more inclined to agree.

But, by the same token, just because we think something is real, does not mean it is so. For decades people thought they were visited and abducted by beings from Venus who lived in fruitful garden paradises. To these people their fantasies were real. However, we now know Venus is a poisonous hunk of rock super-heated by it's propinquity to the sun. What these people experienced was not real, no matter how much they believed it was.

We were debating if there was water on the moon just a few years ago, we still don't know if there is water on mars for crying out loud!

And your going to tell me we know the who knows what about Venus?

Again science refuting and eliminating evidence of their own lack of knowing even if a planet or moon has water to attempt to reconstruct a truly subjective reality about Venus.

Don't get me wrong now science is science and is an amazing tool that can be used to discover amazing things about ourselves and the universe. All i'm saying is that the tool of science has been hijacked by the same type of authoritative mind that rule the catholic church. With the God Particle the scientific community has truly become a new religion and a very powerful one at that.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
As for people suffering sleep paralysis who see figures... For the record, I did not always see figures in the eight years I suffered from it. More common for me were auditory hallucinations, such as soft music, and feminine voices calling my name. When I did see figures they were actually rather bemusing. Typically a tall white "woman" who had some kind of reddish-brown hair, and stood in the corner of my room. She looked like she was trying to play a piano that I could never see.

Yet gain another typical grouping of what people with SP see. The small daemon, the Ugly old woman, the trench coat directive and the woman usually involving in lust or sex. I have seen many,many thing during SP things you can doubt and thing to real to doubt. So when scientist say we don't know but we think such and such I find it doubtful they are correct.

The Rat.

reply to post by Picollo30


It is a medical condition however many cultures have different theories and often refer to it as "the hag". There are a few other threads on this you should read, similar responses.

reply to post by TucoTheRat


Here I was, very impressed by the opening argument of your rebuttal concerning gravity. I was really, really hoping to have found someone else on here who understood the mechanism of science, and the approach that science takes to arrive at its conclusions. How sad I was to have found so many common misconceptions and fallacies in your further argument that made me realize a simple, basic truth: you don't know how science works.

Let me start with some of your mistakes.

1. Science does not try to "redefine" reality. It tries to actually define reality. It is religion and spirituality which do the "redefining," not science. When science says sleep paralysis is a psychological condition influenced by chemical reactions, spirituality says "no, no; it's a spiritual condition affected by demons and angels!" Science defined it, by using a hypothesis. One which anyone can test to their heart's content. Spirituality tried to "redefine" it with speculation which cannot be tested.

2. Science does not know what "gravity" is? Gravity is the measure of interaction one object, in possession of mass, has upon another. Typically, the object with the greater mass will exert some kind of influence over the object with lesser mass, like making it fall. Finally, the object with the greatest mass will exert influence over all objects of lesser mass.

So, the sun's mass influences all 9 planets (8 + 1 "planetoid" if you wish) in our solar system. Second, Earth's mass will influence all those smaller things which are present upon it's surface. Further, if you stand right next to a Pyramid, or a skyscraper with mass much greater than your own, your time/space actually slows down. You will be moving at a slower rate than those who are further from the Pyramid or skyscraper, due to the mass, and therefore gravity, of the larger object.

Additionally, gravitons, hypothetical particles, might be the missing link which will unite gravity with the three other universal constant forces—strong and weak nuclear force, electromagnetism—and the hypothesized fifth force accounting for dark matter, quintessence. Just because we haven't yet discovered them, does not mean they are not there. It only means we haven't found them yet.

3. What is gravity, or a particle, or an electron, etc. Well, for your information, here's the breakdown:

A molecule is an electrically neutral group of two or more atoms held together by chemical bonds.

An atom—the building block of all matter—consists of a nucleus (of positively charged protons and electrically neutral neutrons), surrounded by a cloud of negatively charged electrons; all bound to the nucleus by the Electromagnetic Force.

Protons, electrons, and neutrons are subatomic particles composed of hadrons. Hadrons being composite particles made up of three or more quarks, and held together by the Strong Nuclear Force.

A quark, in turn, is an elementary particle which constitute the basis for all existence. Quarks (of which there are 6 known) and their anti-particles Leptons (of which there are also 6 known) constitute the smallest measurement of existence which science has been able to, as of yet, identify.

Science does know "what it's made of" to a very fine degree. That which it doesn't yet know, it is currently trying to figure out. Like the Large Hadron Collider, which exists for the sole purpose of smashing hardons together to try and uncover more information on quarks and leptons.

4. Humans did not evolve from monkeys, we technically are still monkeys. Also, we did not necessarily retain any evolutionary simuli to "avoid sleepwalking" from our time spent in trees as monkeys; you're being ignorant here, and it's very revealing of your actual understanding of evolutionary theory.

Here is a wonderful video for you to watch, which summarizes the findings of Philogenetics, and explains our relationship to monkeys and apes. For the record, people do still sleepwalk, so your straw-man argument doesn't even stand up on it's own long enough for you to knock it down.

5. The "God Particle" has nothing to do with religion, or spirituality. The nickname comes from "the goddamn particle," implying the difficulty in finding it, not from religion, God, or any type of creationism. Educate yourself.

And with that it should be obvious to the world that you don't know what you're talking about. Good day to you, sir. I'd recommend you sit-in on a fifth grade science class, and much of what I've just discussed will become clearer to you.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by Wandering Scribe

And here I thought you would not thump your physics bible in defense of the new great church of the God particle.

See you did not debate any of the points that I made like the fact that science openly says they do not know why SP happens and don't even touch on the subject of why so many people can possibly hallucinate the same thing. Why we can, with such ridiculing certainty, know what's on Venus when we don't even know if mars has water and we have a double-damned rover on the thing.

Instead you just called me stupid in a way that left you with I'd guess 5 posting characters left. haha.

Then you call the typical scientific explanation of what and why SP is and happens as MY STRAW MAN argument!?!?!? WTF?

Gravity? As a supposed scientifically oriented person you just actually said you know what Gravity and every particle and other little thingamajig (because that what an Atom, proton, electron, neutron and any other really is to science a thingamajig) you named out of a book is? Really?

Let me try to put things into perspective for you, If your arrogance permits of course, because you obviously love science, Don't ground yourself down in theological dogma.

Science is a tool used to help figure things out . Example putting your hand in fire to see what happens is science. We find out it burns, science further helps up figure out why it burns what fire could be, why it reacts to skin the way it does, why pain is involved so on and so forth.

But once Science starts telling you what is real based on pure theory and no facts it becomes a religion.

And this is where PEOPLE NOT SCIENCE misuse the tool and pick and choose their own evidence and tests to firmly prove that lack of evidence is evidence of lack. this is a foolish thing to do and a very third dimensional thing to do but we do not just float in three dimension we are in many.

Isaac newton did not come up with his equations because he was feeding off of scientific words written off of dogmatic power hungry arrogant Scientist. he came up with them looking beyond them into the paranormal (higher dimensional perspectives). and that's a fact one science again choose to overlook yet use what he learned to stunt any growth that is out side of their theories, their religion.

So yes you can spout BIG words about and prove my ignorance which is very easily accepted by myself but those pretty words mean absolutely nothing to you but dogma if you can honestly say you know what they are.

This is why SP is a sleeping condition to you despite the fact that you have experienced it with your own body, mind and eyes. you miss the whole point by looking for the safety nightlight Scientific dogma provides to the weak of hart who choose rather to be blind.

The Rat.

reply to post by TucoTheRat

And here I thought you would not thump your physics bible in defense of the new great church of the God particle.

Science is not a Church, or a system of belief; it is a method for measuring and testing observable reality. The God particle has nothing to do with religion.

science openly says they do not know why SP happens

Science does know what causes sleep paralysis.

Sleep researchers conclude that, in most cases, sleep paralysis is simply a sign that your body is not moving smoothly through the stages of sleep. Rarely is sleep paralysis linked to deep underlying psychiatric problems.

and don't even touch on the subject of why so many people can possibly hallucinate the same thing

Do you believe in demons? You'll see a demon.
Do you believe in ancient life-sucking hags? You'll see an ancient life-sucking hag.

Cultural memes. Our media saturates us with these things: churches, movies, novels, TV shows, spiritual circles. They sit in our subconscious. The same way your blind hatred for science, yet continued use of things which have been created from it, stems from your love of anti-science conspiracy theories.

Why we can, with such ridiculing certainty, know what's on Venus when we don't even know if mars has water and we have a double-damned rover on the thing.

Do you know what Alaska looks like? How about Guatemala? Do you know what France, Germany, Spain, or Helsinki, Finland look like? Here is a good overview for you of Venus. That's how we know: science.

Instead you just called me stupid in a way that left you with I'd guess 5 posting characters left. haha.

Never called you stupid. And I actually had about 600 characters left. Calling you stupid would have only taken 13... wonder why I didn't do it.

Then you call the typical scientific explanation of what and why SP is and happens as MY STRAW MAN argument!?!?!? WTF?

Your explanation of sleeping monkeys in trees was neither typical, nor scientific. It was a straw-man you set up to knock down, which you promptly did.

Gravity? As a supposed scientifically oriented person you just actually said you know what Gravity and every particle and other little thingamajig ...[snip]... you named out of a book is? Really?

I didn't use a book, that's all info I know from my studies. Second, I didn't say we know what everything is. Go back and re-read to see what I really said.

Let me try to put things into perspective for you, If your arrogance permits of course, because you obviously love science, Don't ground yourself down in theological dogma.

I'm an Alekaite, not a scientist. I'm just as spiritual as the Wicca and the Christian. I just happen to base my spiritual beliefs in scientific and historical fact. Thank you for another ad hominem attack.

Science is a tool used to help figure things out...

Yay! You're getting it!

But once Science starts telling you what is rea ...[snip]... it becomes a religion.

And now you're dead in the water again. Good try though, so close.

this is a foolish thing to do and a very third dimensional thing to do but we do not just float in three dimension we are in many.

Length, width, height... the fourth is rumored to possibly be time. But science isn't sure yet. Care to tell me how to observe the 5th through 14th?

Isaac newton did not come up with his equations because he was feeding off of scientific words

Actually, he was. His work built off of Kepler and other astronomers and mathematicians.

So yes you can spout BIG words about and prove my ignorance which is very easily accepted by myself but those pretty words mean absolutely nothing to you but dogma if you can honestly say you know what they are

Ah! So you're part of the "Ignorance is Bliss" church. I see. Well, I can't compete with that. Your whole goal in life is to remain uneducated and unaware; ill-equipped to deal with the world. Your mission in life is to rally against anything which you do not understand and call it "dogma" and brainwashing. Congratulations, I'll let the Pastor know you have fulfilled every precept and tenet. Maybe he'll elect you God of the Church of Ignorant Bliss!

And oh, look at that! I still have 203 character left!

You're stupid.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Science is not a Church, or a system of belief; it is a method for measuring and testing observable reality. The God particle has nothing to do with religion.

I agree completely with you about what Science is, it's a tool. But the God particle has nothing to with science because it is not part of observable reality or fantasy it's a goose chase just like any misused religion. they should have called it the Snipe particle and t's fallen angel Dark mater.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Science does know what causes sleep paralysis.

Come on dude! Seriously a WEB MD article!?!? LOL! you even have the gull to scrape "Sleep researchers conclude...." Conclude?

con·clude: Verb - 1.) Bring (something) to an end. 2.) Come to an end: "the talk concluded with slides".

How is that a point for "Science does know what causes sleep paralysis."?

Maybe it's just me but I feel Wikipedia usually has much better references open for research than WEB MD. But that's just me...

Oh look here is a perfect example of why i say Science does not know what SP is or why it happens...

Wiki on SP

The pathophysiology of sleep paralysis has not been concretely identified, although there are several theories about what causes an individual to develop sleep paralysis.

The only thing that is determined about SP as wiki says is...

It has been determined that there is a genetic component to sleep paralysis.

The rest is theory, or fantasy wish ever suits you best. just don't say fact please...you'll embarace the children.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Do you believe in demons? You'll see a demon.
Do you believe in ancient life-sucking hags? You'll see an ancient life-sucking hag.
Cultural memes. Our media saturates us with [SNIP] stems from your love of anti-science conspiracy theories.

I have seen many things except the daemon and the hag or a woman only the directive and other things.

funny though you use this example though. Do you believe in the woman that look like a piano you saw? I bet she believes in you...

I don't love anti-science, I just don't like people trying to make science look bad with dogma and WEB MD articles and their "conclusions".

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Do you know what Alaska looks like? How about Guatemala? Do you know what France, Germany, Spain, or Helsinki, Finland look like? Here is a good overview for you of Venus. That's how we know: science.

Nice radar image, it's missing a few spots though LOL, Dude think about this et could have taken those guys and if took those guys than that small crap we know about Venus and it's possible anything from gardens to space stations with gardens is near or on Venus. But in any case let's say they did not go and you are correct, seriously that website just shows how little we know about Venus or the moon and mars for that mater.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Your explanation of sleeping monkeys in trees was neither typical, nor scientific. It was a straw-man you set up to knock down, which you promptly did.

perhaps you are correct, did a search and can find any scientific data on what I said. I remember reading it somewhere because I did not make it up i know that much. perhaps it was to silly to keep in print. Either way you win on this point.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
I didn't use a book, that's all info I know from my studies. Second, I didn't say we know what everything is. Go back and re-read to see what I really said.

OK, let me rephrase the question. Do you honestly think you know what gravity is or did you not phrase incorrectly? because if you do know what gravity and all those other things you said you knew, NASA and some others would ike to know.

What is gravity really?

Quite a number of experiments show that Einstein was right about this idea and a lot of others. But there are questions for which even Einstein had no answers. For example, if gravity is a force that causes all matter to be attracted to all other matter, why are atoms mostly empty space inside? (There is really hardly any actual matter in an atom!) How are the forces that hold atoms together different from gravity? Is it possible that all the forces we see at work in nature are really different sides of the same basic force or structure?

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
I'm an Alekaite, not a scientist. I'm just as spiritual as the Wicca and the Christian. I just happen to base my spiritual beliefs in scientific and historical fact. Thank you for another ad hominem attack.

Wow you really have to keep you dogma on a leash then don't you.

The Rat.

Part-2 LOL!

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Yay! You're getting it!

Woo!Hoo! thank you so much teacher, but I'm still confused on whether some scientific observation about SP.

Do we know as fact if what some people see during and SP episode is a hallucination or is it a theory?

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
And now you're dead in the water again. Good try though, so close.

Is a theory real then? is this what you are saying? if a theory is real why don't we just call it fact?

Is there a difference between theories and beliefs? Should either be presented as fact?

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Length, width, height... the fourth is rumored to possibly be time. But science isn't sure yet. Care to tell me how to observe the 5th through 14th?

Time does not exist so PEOPLE will use SCIENCE to tr to be sure but will never come to that fact even if they come to it's conclusion same with Dark Mater and the God particle.

I do not need to tell you how to observe higher dimensions you have the gift and all ready do, many do but choose to call them hallucinations, dreams, deja vu anything but higher dimensions.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Actually, he was. His work built off of Kepler and other astronomers and mathematicians.

But he improved on that work, did not just regenerate it. He went to what 3D minds call crazy nut job stuff like alchemy and the paranormal.

Tesla saw most of his work in flashes of lightning and spoke to martians. while all Edison did was make a (one) light bulb that worked out all the ones that did not work. But what do people teach as Science in schools Tesla or Edison?

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
Ah! So you're part of the "Ignorance is Bliss" church. I see. Well, I can't compete with that. Your whole goal in life is to remain uneducated and unaware; ill-equipped to deal with the world. Your mission in life is to rally against anything which you do not understand and call it "dogma" and brainwashing. Congratulations, I'll let the Pastor know you have fulfilled every precept and tenet. Maybe he'll elect you God of the Church of Ignorant Bliss!

just trying to help you see what you were gifted to see but choose not to. free yourself fro your own dogma. yes Science is awesome! but not when it used to belittle, hold back, ridicule, and stifle yourself.

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
And oh, look at that! I still have 203 character left!

You're stupid.

~ Wandering Scribe

Never said I wasn't.

The Rat.

reply to post by TucoTheRat


You clearly haven't been following up on the recent discoveries of science.

The Higgs boson has passed peer review. It is not a "mythical" possibility; they found it. It exists, and can be viewed. So, your whole reality/fantasy, wild goose chase commentary is out the window.

Not that it ever mattered. Your ignorance was apparent when you thought that the "God" particle had something to do with religion. There's nothing more to say, unless you'll be apologizing for being wrong about it.



So, where does this leave us? Oh, yes, sleep paralysis.

Both my Web MD article (which you mocked) and your Wiki article (which you praised) state the same causes for sleep paralysis:

1) when an individual does not smoothly transition from one sleep cycle to another
2) when an individual wakes between REM and NREM sleep

Wiki even offers a few others which Wed MD did not cite.

1) a genetic component to sleep paralysis, at the physiological level
2) an association with other sleep disorders like Narcolepsy

So, both my article and your article point to science knowing why sleep paralysis occurs. There's no discrepancy here, outside of your having not fully read either article. While you were trying to quote-mine for something which might vaguely support your stance, I read the Wiki's entire article and realized they both agreed.



Ignoring the fact that you began this discussion by saying science was not the way to understand sleep paralysis, and that science was limited in what it could do for the world of human understanding; and how you've now been championing science and saying it is awesome and great, let's try to realign.

General Theory
Scientific Theory
Reality
Fantasy

You're either purposefully confusing all of these, or, you really don't know the difference. Either way, you're making yourself look silly with your misuse of the terms. Let me help you out. A theory, by definition, means different things depending on if it is a general theory, a philosophic theory, an art theory, or a scientific theory. They're not all the same thing.

scientific theory means (emphasis added by me):

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Reality and fantasy relate to observable existence. When something can be observed, tested, and quantified; and then the whole thing be done by someone else; it is real, meaning part of reality. If something can only be tested metaphysically, supernaturally, or through contemplation then it is not part of reality, but a part of fantasy.

Now, fantasy can become reality, but only when the fantastical element can be studied under the rules of reality. Demonic involvement in sleep paralysis can become a reality, only when demons can be measured, seen, and experimented on, by any scientist who wishes to; including you and me.

Until then:

Sleep paralysis being caused by sleep patterns, sleep disorders, and genetics: scientific theory with testable data: REALITY.

Sleep paralysis being caused by demons, spirits, and supernatural forces: philosophical supposition without any testable data: FANTASY.



I'll discuss Venus, even though you're just grasping for straws here.

The reason we can know what a planet's surface will be like, is through studying similar conditions on Earth or in labs. You do not have to actually see Spain to know what Spain looks like. If you understand the climate, the topography, and the cultural evolution which occurred in the area you can grasp an adequate picture of Spain's current appearance.

This is the same way NASA figured out how to safely send a man into space, and then to the surface of the moon, without ever having been in space to know what conditions up there were like. They studied the layers of the atmosphere, and made theories based on our understanding of space. Then, they tested those theories numerous times with experiments, and concluded they were right.

That's how space travel was born.

That's how we can safely discuss the surface of Venus.

Science is able to use it's understanding of one subject to help our understanding of another subject advance. That's how science works.



I'm done with this debate, because it's very clear to me now that you don't understand how science works. I'd recommend you try to though, because it can greatly benefit your experiences in life when you understand the complexities of the Universe.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
You clearly haven't been following up on the recent discoveries of science.

The Higgs boson has passed peer review. It is not a "mythical" possibility; they found it. It exists, and can be viewed. So, your whole reality/fantasy, wild goose chase commentary is out the window.

Not that it ever mattered. Your ignorance was apparent when you thought that the "God" particle had something to do with religion. There's nothing more to say, unless you'll be apologizing for being wrong about it.

Well I'll tell you when your right your right friend! after reading that article you linked i have to say I do apologize for being wrong about it.

The people disparately searching for The God Particle are not a new religion......they are a a lost and insane CULT!

Seriously thanks for that link I did not know science was being used to twist and redefine reality is such a buffoonish way.

And please can you kindly point out where the article in the ink you posted shows that they found it?

All i could find is this from yourLINK

Back in July, both the CMS and ATLAS teams — teams of scientists tasked with analyzing the data produced by the CMS and ATLAS detectors — announced that they’d discovered a new elementary particle.

As they will always fin a new elementary particle, always have and always will in infinitely if through science we find was to keep looking.

CERN did not say that this was the Higgs boson, the so-called God particle,....

You see friend, right here, right in your face in the article you posted that they have not found the God particle.

but as the Standard Model of particle physics only has one undiscovered particle remaining, it probably is the Higgs boson.

This statement above is not Science it is cultism, worse than even, it's like telling children Santa in coming to town.

How in the flying turd do these arrogant closed minded narcissists know particle physics only has one undiscovered particle remaining, and when another a new elementary particle slaps then in the face they attempt to pass the new cult ideologies through peer review to make the God particle a new fact a new reality based on bull crap.

Following CERN’s announcement, both the CMS and ATLAS teams submitted their findings to Physics Letters B — and today, both of their research papers have passed peer review by the scientific community, effectively becoming… science.

There you have it, you are rooting for ignorance to become....science. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Before we actually know what the new particle is, CERN, the LHC, and the CMS and ATLAS teams must perform additional tests. The LHC had been scheduled to shut down for upgrades, but following the July announcement it has instead been smashing protons together nonstop, to produce more data for CMS and ATLAS to analyze. By December, it is hoped that both teams will have a much better idea of the properties of the new particle, and whether it is actually the Higgs boson.

They even stopped upgrades to the CERN from taking place to get their God particle Cult to become false science. Oh and I hope you see how the statement starts "Before we actually know what the new particle is". Just goes to show you that this cult has not found it's GOD Partle yet.

There is always the outside chance that it’s another particle entirely, which would turn our understanding of the universe on its head — in a good way.

Oh the horror! The horror! Not if this cult trying to pass God particle trough peer review has anything to say about it!

So, where does this leave us? Oh, yes, sleep paralysis.

Both my Web MD article (which you mocked) and your Wiki article (which you praised) state the same causes for sleep paralysis:
[SNIP]
So, both my article and your article point to science knowing why sleep paralysis occurs. There's no discrepancy here, outside of your having not fully read either article. While you were trying to quote-mine for something which might vaguely support your stance, I read the Wiki's entire article and realized they both agreed.

Yes they both agree on their theories. THEORIES! THEORIES!

But again since you have read wiki's article on SP, then you must have come across this statement Wiki on SP

The pathophysiology of sleep paralysis has not been concretely identified, although there are several theories about what causes an individual to develop sleep paralysis.

This means they think but do not know for sure. You have a very low level of reading comprehension. That's pretty bad coming from a guy as stupid as me.

The Rat .

To be continued....

Originally posted by Wandering Scribe
reply to post by TucoTheRat

 

scientific theory means (emphasis added by me):

a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.

Thank you for clarifying what I have been saying all along! scientific theory is not FACT!

It's a way to redefine reality when all we have is phenomenon just like religion has miracles. I mean come on Evolution is an accepted fact?!?! Tell that to a born again Christian who thinks the Earth is 10,000 years old is an accepted fact. When really there is no concrete evidence for either crack pot idea. So lets pray for the missing link shall we LOL!

Reality and fantasy relate to observable existence. When something can be observed, tested, and quantified; and then the whole thing be done by someone else; it is real, meaning part of reality. If something can only be tested metaphysically, supernaturally, or through contemplation then it is not part of reality, but a part of fantasy.

Now, fantasy can become reality, but only when the fantastical element can be studied under the rules of reality. Demonic involvement in sleep paralysis can become a reality, only when demons can be measured, seen, and experimented on, by any scientist who wishes to; including you and me.

So your saying...Dark mater and the god Particle are fantasy, which BTW I agree completely. What I don't agree with is your false idea that what is real, is only that what has been or can be measured and observed by science.

That is beyond ignorant that is the lack of capability to understand and think with out being told what is real. Mental blindness. Dogma!

Until then:

Sleep paralysis being caused by sleep patterns, sleep disorders, and genetics: scientific theory with testable data: REALITY.

Sleep paralysis being caused by demons, spirits, and supernatural forces: philosophical supposition without any testable data: FANTASY.

Thank the universe that there are a few free thinkers in the world like Galileo, Newton, Tesla, and Jung or we would still be on a flat earth with the sun revolving around us with people like you and the grand majority or the scientific county.

The Rat.

To be continued...