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Debate over a Nuclear Iran is just an Illusion- drop your preconceived opinions to see the reality

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posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:00 PM
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reply to post by charles1952
 





I read the link to the Samson Option, and came away with a strange impression. It seemed that the article kept referring to it as either a deterrent, or a retaliatory tool. Isn't deterrence or retaliation only used to prevent an attack, or in the case of being attacked first?


The words were " deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a “last resort” against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well.". Massive retaliation with nuclear weapons means that we no longer enjoy life as we know it. Let's say Iran decides to invade/attack Israel conventionally. Does this mean that Israel has the right to, as Americans are fond of saying, nuke Iran back to the stone ages/turn Iran into a country full of glass?

That is what I find troublesome. Possessing them and threatening to massively attack countries with them if attacked are two different types of deterrents.




Iran has to have one of the most efficient and thorough security forces in the world. If the protestors are opposed to Iran, why aren't they "disappeared?"


I was unaware that they do. With all the technology and money spent on intelligence gathering, I would have bet it was the US not Iran, and you don't see them being disappeared. I mean, they might cut the head off the snake, but would you or I hear about them?




P.s. I looked at the thread you linked to, and it seemed that for whatever reason it degenerated really quickly to anger, loss of reason, calls for kicking people out, etc. I thought at first I should have posted in that thread but, by the end of the first page, it was pretty clear that it was hopeless.


Yes it was, and I'm embarrassed to say that I was a part of the problem.




posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:01 PM
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Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

I've seen your posts and respect what you have to say, so I'll assume you know things about what came of the failed Star Wars program which was never made public. As I recall the reports at the time and since...it was insane sums of money that generated a ton of spin off technologies which has helped almost as much as the original system would have but ultimately failed to produce.


When was the last time anything really valuable went public and the government and the media did not spin it completly false? I guess only god and the unfriendly aliens of the illuminati knows what the true purpose was.

I wish for once the government told the truth this way we can sleep better at night knowing the iranian turd leader would be totally powerless to do anything other than chant obscenities towards israel. Not that I like israel one single bit mind you, but at least we could get some peace and quite on this hellish planet.

I am thinking high energy lasers and gamma ray amlification stimulated emission radiation systems in orbit are as real as the cereal you eat for breakfast. But then what excuse would the zionist government of america have to spend more tax payer money and more importantly what excuse would the luciferian make-believe "elite" have to fulfill bible prophecy of the confused&ignorant masses? Also the georgia guidestones, made by the make believe roisicrucian ted turner, say the world needs 660 million(I wonder why not 666 to be 100% satanical?) so albert pikes prophecy(planned 150 years ago) can come to fruitition. Albert pikes plan for the illuminati has come to 66% fruitition so far. No kiding; here is the link.

The world never was what it seemed. How appropriate for me to summarize everything in 4-5 paragraphs for a lame thread to begin with.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:08 PM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 




The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty must be signed before a Country can purchase Nuclear Reactor Tech. as well as be able to purchase Nuclear Reactor Fuel. Uranium Enrichment is allowed under the Treaty but only to certain amounts.

Heard of Israel?




Iran must also allow Nuclear Inspectors to visit and inspect all Nuclear Sites anytime anywhere. IRAN HAS BROKEN ALL OF THESE AGREEMENTS.

Parchin is not a nuclear site, it is a military site. That is one of the problems there.




It is of PUBLIC RECORD and you can easily look it up...that IRAN has stated it has built Tens of Thousands of Centrifuges. Iran has also kicked out Inspectors and thus by treaty is subject to Sanctions and possible Military Action.

Have I ever argued any different?




t is also Public Record that Iran has Threatened to Close the Strait of Hormuz.

Still not disagreeing with you.




The U.S. has promised not to attack any Iranian Military Unit or Branch that refuses to follow orders that would create a WAR in which the Iranian Military would not survive. In return...the Iranian Military would be the protectors of a NEW DEMOCRATIC IRAN.

Let me know when Iran starts the war and I will apologize to you and state that I was wrong in my opinions.




If the ORDERS to Close the Strait do go out...the U.S. will not allow Iran to posses Nuclear Facilities...thus Thousands of U.S. Special Forces along with Airborne Rangers would be dropped in to seize all Nuclear Sites.

They do that and they risk a repeat of the USS Liberty.




The Iranian Military as well as the Soldiers, sailors, Airmen a Leadership DO NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR AGAINST THE U.S. MILITARY!

...because it would sink the US further in debt?

I can see you are very passionate about this, can you at least see the other side, or just your own?



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:17 PM
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reply to post by superman2012
 


I am thinking netanyahou will detonate some dirty bomb in downtown jerusalem and blame it on iranian terrorists sponsored by ahjmendihad. Much like gadafhi did with the downed pan american airliner over lockerbie scotland.

If israel can pull-off 9-11 with no one being NONE THE WISER you gotta ask yourself what if anything will ever paint them as the real terrorists. Perhaps that the rothschilds own $500 trillion and can buy all the big whigs throughout the globe should tell you a thing or two.




posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:22 PM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Oh don't worry, with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard going to be named a terrorist organization, we can bet this will kick things up a notch or two.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Oh don't worry, with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard going to be named a terrorist organization, we can bet this will kick things up a notch or two.


Were the nazis who had their food supply cut short from the blockade of the allies terrorists as well?

Who in their right mind would think hitler would allow 6 million jews to be gassed to death? I have seen the holocaust sites on tv and they don't really look like death camps........maybe work or concentration camps...but not death camps.

It seems everywhere fanatic jews go they bring nothing but death, despair and a ton of bad luck! I have had it with them. Everyone becomes a victim just by looking at them, nevemind doing any sort of business. Sorry for my mean rant.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by yourignoranceisbliss
 

What amazes me about your reply as well as your statements that what i have posted is not true...is that IRAN itself has stated the majority of what I have posted publicly on it's own.

If you go to any of the Iranian Media Sites that are sanctioned by it's Government...you can find Quotes of the Iranian Leadership...actually BRAGGING....about the Number of Centrifuges it has built as well as Iran ADMITTING that it has built a Secret Nuclear Site that the U.S. discovered and informed the International Nuclear Inspection team of it's existence. Iran acknowledged the sites existence and Bragged it well many have many more. Iran did in fact kick out Nuclear Inspectors as well as tear down the Video Cameras that must be in place at every Nuclear facility. So what you say is not true...is being said to be true by Iran itself.

Iranian Leaderships statements about wiping Israel off the face of the map was carried publicly by Iranian Media and this is easy enough to check. And the Iranian Statements about Closing the Strait of Hormuz were carried by a host of Media live so if you claim to say that is not true...you are living in a Fantasy World.

By the way...I wish I was still young...you however have displayed a total lack of Knowledge of what responsibilities Iran must live up to by signing the NPT. Israel did not have to sign the NPT because it developed it's Nuclear Reactors on it's own. Iran signed the NPT because it was not capable of building the Reactors because it did not possess the tech. thus it purchased the tech.

I would suggest you do some research before you make another post as this last one and make yourself look that silly again! Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 12:18 AM
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reply to post by EarthCitizen07
 


Sorry, my "rant" regarding Israel has nothing to do with their religion or the holocaust. It is their government that I have a problem with. Please don't hitch me to your holocaust denial train.
edit on 12-9-2012 by superman2012 because: there = their



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 12:23 AM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 





Israel did not have to sign the NPT because it developed it's Nuclear Reactors on it's own.


Or another way of putting it is that France built it with their know how and skill at getting the material around the IAEA.




I would suggest you do some research before you make another post as this last one and make yourself look that silly again Split Infinity!

Agreed. (I moved the exclamation mark!)
edit on 12-9-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 12:53 AM
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Plenty of shills on this thread are sold to the Zionist idea, firmly believing (or being paid to believe) that whatever the Zionists will decide to do is the right thing.
I just don't believe that these people are genuine.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 01:09 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Wonderer2012
 


I would digress. If Iran had just upheld it's end of the Treaty Agreement...there would not even be sanctions or talk of WAR. IRAN...BROKE THE AGREEMENT! IRAN TREATS OF CLOSING THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ AND IRAN THREATS OF WIPING ISRAEL OFF THE MAP....are the issues!

Can you HONESTLY SAY TO ME...that if Iran had not done these things...there would be any talk of WAR? There would NOT BE!



I will never in a million years agree with what you are saying here because it is completely and utterly false.

You are aware of the 1953 coup? You are aware of the 1979 revolution?

Combine those two events with the fact that Iran has the 3rd largest oil reserves in the world and the following map-



The only thing keeping Iran on the radar is the fact they do not play along with what America and her allies want, namely selling them cheap oil.

At one time, the British took 85% of all oil profits, this was why Iran nationalised their oil. This led to the coup of 1953 to impose a puppet dictator, the oil deals ran smoothtly and America even supported Iran's nuclear energy at this time.

Those are all facts.

In 1979, the revolution saw the resources leave American hands once more. Ever since, Iran has been the victim of sanctions, war and terrorism. America armed Iraq and Saddam Hussein to wage war against Iran!

So given the above are all 100% verifiable facts, please do not claim this is Iran's fault, and if they played by the rules there would be no talk of war. It's a ludicrous notion.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by Yosemite Sam
 

Everything save one issue...are things you can easily verify. The one issue is the Secret Military to Military Talks. I have been made aware of this because of what I sometimes do...but there is a clear line of logic to this statement. The United States did the same thing in IRAQ. We Talked directly to the Iraqi Military and this saved many lives.

It is obvious that this is being done again. The group that has the most to lose is the Iranian Military. Just like in Iraq...there was a Division that was Highly Loyal to Saddam because they were Highly Paid and were used to perform acts of Genocide. In Iran...there is a Division like this that was used to infiltrate the Pro-Democracy Movement and they dressed in plain cloths and acted like demonstrators. After they located all the Democratic Movements leadership and local Cells...they attacked and Beat the Students some to Death as well as Tortured and performed other various atrocities. They are PAID THUGS OF THE OLD RELIGIOUS GUARD.

This is the Army Division that U.S. WAR PLANNERS have chosen as an EXAMPLE TARGET. The Old Guard fears one thing...loss of power. They cannot win a WAR against the U.S. Military but they could provoke an incident to hang on to power. The Military Talks are going well but this one Division will be a problem. If they do not stand down...they will be TARGETED. And when I say targeted...I am saying eliminated. As we will have Thousands of Special Forces and Rangers seizing Nuclear Sites...THIS DIVISION would be the one to counter Attack. If they do so...they will all be KILLED. I have witnessed a B-52 Wing in Practice using a MODERN CARPET BOMBING TECHNIQUE. The Bombs explode above the targets and each bomb has independent Rocketed Munitions which seek out and destroy all Military Equipment. They do not fall under the CLUSTER BOMB BAN as they render themselves inert a certain amount of time after release. Some go after Vehicles...some target fuel tankers and some target People. NOTHING CAN SURVIVE THIS KIND OF AIRDROP.

Now this is only a Wing of B-52's...a Plane designed in 1949...destroying in one pass...approx. 100,000 MEN. The Iranian Regime does not care how many of their own die as long as they stay in POWER. The Pro-Democracy Movement cannot Seize Power as long as a Division of this nature remains. Unfortunately...it may come down to the same thing that occurred in IRAQ as NO SOLDIER will fight against such a FORCE.

The REAL IRANIAN MILITARY LEADERSHIP KNOWS THIS! The problem is the Old Guards Military Mouth Piece spewing rhetoric such as...IRAN CAN DEFEAT THE ZIONIST CONTROLLED U.S. INVADERS! It cannot. It cannot even come close. All that can happen is More Iranian Deaths. If the Iranian Military BACKS the Pro-Democracy Movement...the rest of the Iranian Military can gain control of this division. The U.S. does not want to destroy Iran's Military. Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 01:50 AM
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Originally posted by charles1952
I suppose I shouldn't be posting, I'm too upset. Not Ronnieray123 upset (although he is the most honest and open poster in this thread), but upset enough that I might be impolite and I apologize for that in advance.

The OP is correct in saying the "Debate over a Nuclear Iran is just an illusion . . ." At least in this thread it has shown itself to be so. There was no dropping of preconceived notions by the supporters of Iran, you can see the same ideas, the same words, in dozens of threads already posted on ATS.

I wish to Heaven there was a debate, at least here if not world-wide. But all that seems to be happening is that another opportunity has been taken by some to repeat, yet again, that Israel is terrible, Iran is peaceful and has done nothing wrong, and the US is terrible.

Ignored here, are the threats, the treaty violations, the repeated statements of outrage from the UN and other agencies, the funding of terror groups, and on and on. A country can only be excused because it is acting stupidly, for just so long. It looks like Iran has passed that limit. A real debate would try to unearth the reason for Iran's apparent insanity. It may be that insanity is all there is.

If that's the case, then it's time to put Ronnieray123 in charge of our military.


You nailed it. The insanity starts with an I.



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 01:59 AM
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reply to post by votan
 

I was against the Iraq Invasion. I am PRO doing everything and anything to prevent Massive Deaths in Iran. Why do you think that ISRAEL has not Bombed Iranian Nuclear Sites?

It is because the U.S. has FORBIDDEN ISRAEL TO DO SO! The Radiation that would be shot into the Air would poison the whole Middle East. Iran can stop this insanity right now by allowing inspectors back in and stop building more Centrifuges of which it has itself admitted...even BRAGGED...to have built TENS OF THOUSANDS!

There is only ONE REASON TO BUILD THAT MANY CENTRIFUGES. That is to enrich enough Uranium to Weapons Grade. It is Thousands of times cheaper to just buy Reactor Level Fuel.

This entire problem is Iran's drive to build Nukes. The sad thing is that a few Nukes is not enough to deter the U.S. Military from carrying out an action. There is two ways this will play out. Either Iran comes to it's senses and allows Nuclear Inspectors back in...or Iran will create an incident to keep the Old Religious Guard in Power.

Iran's Pro-Democracy Movement will attempt to seize power. Iran's Military is secretly talking with the U.S. Military. Iran's Military KNOWS it cannot survive a direct WAR with the U.S. The U.S. Military has made a deal which will allow the Iranian Military NOT TO BE ATTACKED...if it does not crack down of the Pro-Democracy Movement as well as carry out any SUICIDAL ORDERS such as attempt to Close the Strait of Hormuz. This act alone will force the U.S. Military to OBLITERATE the entire Iranian Navy. The U.S. does not want this...the Iranian Navy does not want this...the only ones who DO WANT THIS is the Religious Old Guard. Such High Iranian Casualties can be used to keep them in power as this act will be twisted into propaganda stating that THE ZIONIST CONTROLLED U.S. MILITARY IS TRYING TO DESTROY IRAN...WE MUST FIGHT ISRAEL!

The Iranian Navy will STAND DOWN...it will not attempt to CLOSE THE STRAIT...this will give Military Support to the Iranian Pro-Democracy Movement. Still...their is one HIGHLY PAID ARMY DIVISION which put on plain cloths and infiltrated the Democratic-Movement Demonstrators. They Beat the KIDS to DEATH and if the Iranian Navy Stands Down...and Massive U.S. Special Forces and Rangers are Air Dropped in to secure and seize all Iranian Nuclear Sites...This One Division out of all of the rest of the Iranian Military will attack. If this happens...the U.S. Will Carpet Bomb this Division of about 100,000 Men. They will not survive.

Once they are gone...Iranian Democratic Leadership will be backed by their own Military as is the deal the Iranian military has made to prevent their own demise. THERE IS NOT ONE REAL IRANIAN MILITARY LEADER WHO WANTS TO GO TO WAR AGAINST THE U.S. MILITARY! All the statements you hear come from the Old Religious Guard Propaganda Ministry. The REAL IRANIAN MILITARY LEADERSHIP KNOWS...they are the ones who would DIE FIRST...fighting an enemy that they have ZERO CHANCE OF DEFEATING. The Iranian Navy KNOWS that to follow an order to Close the Strait...would FORCE the U.S. NAVY to OBLITERATE the Iranian Navy. Thus the Iranian Navy WILL NOT FOLLOW ORDERS! It will stand down and then become the protectors of a FREE DEMOCRATIC IRAN. Same with the Iranian Air Force and most of the Army. Still that ONE DIVISION IS A PROBLEM! They know the Student reprisals that will occur because of what they did so they will most likely Fight. If they do...THEY WILL ALL DIE. Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:20 AM
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reply to post by superman2012
 

My JOB...is to SOLVE PROBLEMS and do so with the least amount of collateral damage as well as CREATE STABILITY! It is not in the U.S. Interest to destroy Iran or Iran's Military. It is in our interest to give a Country that is 94% in favor of Good Relations with the U.S. as well as 96% in favor of Free and Fair Democratic Elections...as well as PROVIDE AND OUT for the TRUE IRANIAN MILITARY LEADERSHIP to continue to EXIST and Guarantees that they will NOT BE ATTACKED if they STAND DOWN.

The U.S. sees a possible GOOD ALLY in a FREE DEMOCRATIC IRAN. The U.S. Military does not want to have to Destroy the Iranian Military. The Iranian Military DOES NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES...WANT TO FIGHT THE U.S. MILITARY. The ONLY GROUP that sees gain in this is the OLD RELIGIOUS GUARD. If the Iranian navy is ordered to Close the Strait of Hormuz and actually attempts to do so...the U.S. Navy will be FORCED to Destroy the ENTIRE IRANIAN NAVY. HOWEVER...if the Iranian Navy REFUSES THAT ORDER AND STANDS DOWN...it will embolden other Iranian Military Leaders who see the current path as SUICIDE...to STAND DOWN and this will allow the Pro-Democracy Movement TO OVERTHROW the Old Guard. ONE ISSUE...there is ONE DIVISION loyal to the Old Guard that will resist...just as one of SADDAM's Loyal Republican Guard Divisions...so U.S. War Planners made it an EXAMPLE TARGET...flew a wing of B-52's at night with New Smart Carpet Bomb Munitions...and 100,000 Men ceased to exist. After this...all Iraqi Divisions surrendered. It would be nice to avoid this but this Iranian Division was the one that put on plain cloths and infiltrated the Students and the Pro-Democracy Movement. They killed and Tortured alot of KIDS. They would have no place in a FREE IRAN...so they may fight...if they do...EXAMPLE TARGET. It is unfortunate...but my job is the Big Picture and a FREE IRAN...as a possible U.S. Ally...is worth the risk! Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:32 AM
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Originally posted by superman2012
reply to post by SplitInfinity
 





Israel did not have to sign the NPT because it developed it's Nuclear Reactors on it's own.


Or another way of putting it is that France built it with their know how and skill at getting the material around the IAEA.




This is actually true as well as U.S. supplying Israel Weapons Grade Uranium from Oak Ridge...but the Israeli's had the ability
I would suggest you do some research before you make another post as this last one and make yourself look that silly again Split Infinity!

Agreed. (I moved the exclamation mark!)
edit on 12-9-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)
This is actually true as well as U.S. supplying Israel Weapons Grade Uranium from Oak Ridge...but the Israeli's had the ability to build a Bomb just not the time as Egypt and other Arab countries were constantly invading it...this was a COLD WAR EXCEPTION. Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 02:48 AM
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reply to post by Wonderer2012
 

The U.S. made mistakes by backing the Shah and this was a COLD WAR counter plan as the Soviet Union had plans which were made public during the YELTSIN Government...that the Soviets were going to Invade Europe as well as the Middle East through Iran and Turkey and seize the OIL supply as well as build a Warm Weather Port for building a Soviet Navy to Rival the U.S.

In the light of this Big Picture REALITY...we made mistakes in Iran. But now...the Iranian People want a different Government. They want FREEDOM...94% want Good Relations with the U.S.

The Iranians signed the NPT and they BROKE the Treaty. The U.S. cannot allow a Government that would attempt to Close the Strait of Hormuz to have a Nuclear Program. The U.S. Cannot allow Israel to Bomb Iranian Nuclear Sites. The issue is on a road that has one fact in it's ending. The Current Iranian Regime Must GO!

The Iranian People will do it eventually but it may be to slow as Iranian Old Guard Leadership is Gambling...on a loosing concept...that if Iran has a Nuclear Bomb...the U.S. will not do anything....this is ill conceived. A few Nukes will not deter the U.S. Military and ONLY the U.S. Military has the ability to seize all Nuclear sites and make a deal with Iranian Military Leaders to stand down. Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 04:46 AM
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reply to post by dananni
 

If you think that Iran is all Rainbows and Sunshine and the U.S. is this Warmongering Empire...it shows you have never lived in Iran. Iran is a place where a very small group of Religious Zealots have no problem at all killing their own KIDS in order to stay in power.

The U.S. has made mistakes as to do with Iran but that was because Iran was planned to be invaded by the Soviets. We know this because these plans were released during the Yeltsin Government.

You talk about Iran without knowing it's own people are fighting for a Change of their own Government. The Pro-Democracy Movement will eventually take over but the Old Guard will and has done everything and anything...such as Run a False Election and Beat the Student Demonstrators to Death in order to maintain power. The Internet in Iran is filtered and if you are a Woman...GOD help you in that country.

The People of Iran want a Free Democratic Government and that is 96% of the people. 94% want good relations with the U.S. and the total Population of Iran is over 70% under the age of 30 years old. The U.S. made mistakes by backing the Shah but the U.S. tends to look at WORLD STABILITY AND BECAUSE OF THIS...we have made some choices that were bad but were for the greater good.

Iran's Regime will fall...hopefully by it's own people...but one way or another...it will fall. The people of Iran could very well become a Major U.S. Ally if things are handled properly. The Iranian Population wants the current regime...OUT...PERIOD! Iran's regime sealed it's fate when it kicked out Nuclear Inspectors as well as threatened to Close the Strait of Hormuz...the area of which the majority of all the Worlds OIL is Shipped.

That threat cannot be allowed to occur nor can a country intent on Building Nukes be the one threatening. It is just a matter of time. Split Infinity



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by SplitInfinity U.S. tends to look at WORLD STABILITY


Really, pretty strange way of looking at world stability.
How many countries has the USA succeeded at destabilizing/attempted to destabilize so far this past century or so?
I believe the US has engaged in war with at least 7 countries since 9/11 alone. That's almost a new war annually!!

Perhaps you mean that the US tends to look at WORLD COMPLIANCE TO US POLICIES in order to create 'stability'


(Hey, not singling out the US as the lone gunman here btw. Shove all the 'allies' in the same box if you like, but if we are asked to point out the big bully (militarily) in the playground, it isn't that hard to know where to stick your finger!)



posted on Sep, 12 2012 @ 08:34 AM
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No preconceived notions here. All along I've thought the whole "Nuclear Iran" was just another boogie man theory used to demonize Iran, just like "Weapons of mass destruction".

The bottom line is, if you don't play ball with the NWO plans, they will "liberate" the hell out of your country, if you catch my drift.





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