Man stabs lover to death after she didn't tell him she had HIV before they had sex

reply to post by luciddream


No, I'm not saying that, hence my use of the term "normal sex", yes that way has the highest risk, and yes straight couples do it. I was hoping people might have realised that is what I meant without me actually typing something like that on ATS.

Let's assume he did contract HIV from her. Would killing her take it away? Murder doesn't cure HIV, and deception is not a very good justification for the taking of another person's life. Of course, if he didn't contract HIV, he killed her for merely not telling him she was infected.

We have laws, and morality by general consensus that murdering someone is not only punishable by jail time, but is an awful bad thing to do. Even if he isn't convicted, he will be "that guy that killed his HIV infected girlfriend." Lose lose situation, unless he had used that squishy organic computer situated somewhere between his ears.

Originally posted by superman2012

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

"Wrote his death warrant? The chance of a healthy man -- without open wounds on his penis -- of contracting aids from an HIV positive woman, after 1 episode of unprotected vaginal intercourse is about 2 in 1000. Deny ignorance.

His chances would have gone down to 0% had he been notified and refused the encounter though. Deny ignorance and don't twist the facts.

Edit: Why 2 out of 1000? Why not 20 out of 10000?

edit on 10-9-2012 by superman2012 because: (no reason given)

Its less than 1/1000 unprotected with a female without blood involved. I've given links and stats over and over. Refuse to link anymore they are saying roughly the same thing.

And yes she should have spoken up, but he should have taken good self care and worn a condom unless he saw her most recent blood work.

HIV and Hep C are very common in every single town/city so people need to wake up and take good self care.

He is responsible for controlling his rage and not murdering people who upset him or who he thinks may have harmed him.

Most people don't respond like this.

It could be so simple, put a sleeve on it. I say that's his problem for trusting someone he just meet.

Originally posted by newcovenant

Originally posted by LaughingatHumanity
Hopefully her kids don't end up being such scumbags. "She took my life so I took hers" im typically not a fan of vengeance but she had it coming.

No she didn't "have it coming. " What an insane statement. It is possible and easy to see why someone loosely hinged and impulsive might be driven to kill her. That I will agree with but to say she had it coming is crazy talk and he is as much a scum bag or more. She did not kill him. He killed her. He probably will catch nothing and be fine and even if he isn't - it is not justification for murder.

edit on 10-9-2012 by newcovenant because: (no reason given)

"he will probably catch nothing and will be fine" ?? That's the basis for your opinon?

wow.

You realise that there is no cure for AIDS right? Once you are infected with HIV, YOU WILL DIE FROM IT.

There is a reason 34 states and 2 territories have laws in place covering disclosure of this virus to a partner.

In Arkansas for example, it's a FELONY to not disclose to a partner that you are HIV positive.

www.unaids.org...

Also see Criminal Transmission of HIV

In many countries, the intentional or reckless infection of a person with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) is considered to be a crime. This is often conflated, in laws and in discussion, with criminal exposure to HIV, which does not require the transmission of the virus and often, as in the cases of spitting and biting, does not even include a realistic means of transmission.[1][2] People who do so can be charged with criminal transmission of HIV, murder, manslaughter, attempted murder, or assault. Some states have enacted laws expressly to criminalize HIV transmission (or HIV exposure), as in the United States, while others charge under the existing laws, as in the United Kingdom.

Justification for murder?

If he ends up positive, and she never disclosed to him, I say yes. She killed him too.

Originally posted by Unity_99

Most people don't respond like this.

edit on 10-9-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

Really?

How do you think "most people" would respond when they are faced with death?

I suppose "most people" would just sit down, have a spot of tea, and discuss it civilly?


This is such utter BS. I bet if it were the guy who had AIDS and the situation were reversed and she stabbed him, NOT ONE OF YOU would be saying it was unjustified.

Hypocrites.

Originally posted by HIWATT

Originally posted by Unity_99

Most people don't respond like this.

edit on 10-9-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

Really?

How do you think "most people" would respond when they are faced with death?

I suppose "most people" would just sit down, have a spot of tea, and discuss it civilly?

I'm almost of the belief this would have been a normal natural reaction throughout the ages had they known what HIV was or what it does.

They've certainly killed for a lot less. Perhaps what i'm trying to imply is maybe this is part of our instinct?

Originally posted by yourmaker

Originally posted by HIWATT

Originally posted by Unity_99

Most people don't respond like this.

edit on 10-9-2012 by Unity_99 because: (no reason given)

Really?

How do you think "most people" would respond when they are faced with death?

I suppose "most people" would just sit down, have a spot of tea, and discuss it civilly?

I'm almost of the belief this would have been a normal natural reaction throughout the ages had they known what HIV was or what it does.

They've certainly killed for a lot less. Perhaps what i'm trying to imply is maybe this is part of our instinct?

I can tell you with 100% certainty if I were put in that position the LEAST that would happen is I would contemplate "revenge"

The animal in me would probably want to rip her apart, but the logical half would want to see a test result confirming any infection.... who's to say which wolf wins?

Originally posted by BIHOTZ
She really did the same thing to him, just in a different way.

edit on 10-9-2012 by BIHOTZ because: (no reason given)

This kind of mentality that has raised it's ugly head all over this thread, has me groaning. Attacking someone with a knife is in NO WAY relatable to consensual sex.

Did he have any say in if he had unprotected sex with someone, without knowing their status? YES
Did she have any say about having a knife inserted in her body? NO

Not comparible. Unless sex is forced, it is everyone's own responsibility to know the status and health of their sexual partner(s), period.

reply to post by newcovenant


I agree, to some extent but at the same time if you have a virus like that, one that has no cure, and is known to be deadly, then you should be considerate enough to tell someone that before you sleep with them anyway. It's called being considerate, something this woman obviously knew nothing about. That is particularly true if you care about the person at all and this woman obviously just didn't care about the man she was with that much. You don't knowingly do something like that to someone you care about unless you're a selfish bitch.

A normal person does not kill someone for that. He should have immediately gone to the Doctor, and then hire an attorney to press charges if he was that upset. I dated someone for 8 weeks before they told me that they had HIV, actually they had full blown AIDS. I was mad and upset about it, and didn't trust the person after that, but killing the person didn't even cross my mind. Thankfully, I never got HIV, and am still negative.

IMHO, both of them were idiots, and since he killed her, he should get punished for murder. If he was so upset at the thought of getting HIV, he should have used protection just in case. I think that there is more to this story, and he may be using the HIV as an excuse or distraction for murdering her for another reason altogether.

If he was that freaked out about the HIV, why would he use a knife to kill her, which would expose him to a lot of her tainted blood? It wouldn't surprise me if he were to get HIV from killing her with a knife, since so much infected blood would be involved. That would be poetic justice right there...

So if I new I had a flesh eating disease and I decided to shake your hand, would you be mad at me? Go get your lawyer, we'll talk about it on your deathbed!

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

"Wrote his death warrant? The chance of a healthy man -- without open wounds on his penis -- of contracting aids from an HIV positive woman, after 1 episode of unprotected vaginal intercourse is about 2 in 1000. Deny ignorance.

Well, I have two points on this. First and absolutely foremost. There are many ways a human being can try to kill another either by action or omission of action. In this case, I'd call her guilty of some of both.

I personally don't need someone to succeed in actually killing me to recognize they've either directly attempted it....or they damn sure acted with reckless disregard for my life and safety. I'll say this with absolutely no qualms or room for misunderstanding too. If someone takes action or deliberately avoids action (Like a legally required warning) and I discover I'm dying or likely TO die because of the actions of an individual? They WILL get to hell before I do...and I'll wish them well in keeping a seat warm down there for me. How often can someone avenge their own murder? He got the chance and took it...

...and for the fact he DID kill another person, he DOES deserve to die in prison himself. However, I'll bet he calls it a fair deal in the balance....I'm not sure how I'd look at it when the "victim" literally ended my life first.

Second though.... You've gone and stated that as a fact....then even hung a mild insult on the end of it. No biggy.... My fur isn't that thin. However, I am SURE you have links or supporting material to back your claim of odds to a healthy man contracting HIV from a very infected female, right? I don't believe your numbers..but I didn't make the claim so I'm not putting the time into proving this one as wrong as I know it to be. I'll leave it to you to back the very clear statement of fact you made on the subject. I look forward to seeing such evidence.......since I honestly don't believe it exists, or ever has.

Originally posted by newcovenant
reply to post by ollncasino

 

It is not a given someone will transfer the aids virus to another person so this guy should have waited to see if he contracted the virus before killing the woman.

In a perfect world, yes. This however is not a perfect world. Can you imagine the things that ran through his mind, immediately after having sex with a someone he had just started dating, then telling you she is HIV positive?

If there was ever a case to plead "temporary insanity", this would be it. This is a perfect example of a sudden high stress situation that would cause someone to react in an irrational manner. He may not be infected, that is very true. However he will be spending the next 7 years getting tested over and over and over again before he finds out for sure. I can understand his confusion, his anger, and even his reaction.

He also should have asked her if she had any diseases before sleeping with her. Come on fella - take some responsibility for your own irresponsible actions.

What strikes me most about the above quote his how often I have seen, when the tables are turned and it is a man infecting a women with some type of STD, people who usually blame the men in that type of situation also. Ranting on about honesty and integrity and how the female had a right to know and make a choice if she wanted to risk it. So to the above quote I will simply say the same thing people say when the roles are reversed...... maybe he trusted her. Maybe he trusted her enough to think that if she had a medical issue that could be transmitted to another through sexual contact, she would have said so.

I have known people who are HIV positive and I have known people who had contact herpes. In those cases, the infected person usually spoke up about it right off the bat. They didn't keep it a secret. You would be told before the first kiss ever happened.

Originally posted by 0zzymand0s

 

"Wrote his death warrant? The chance of a healthy man -- without open wounds on his penis -- of contracting aids from an HIV positive woman, after 1 episode of unprotected vaginal intercourse is about 2 in 1000. Deny ignorance.

Well on that same note... what about cases where someone who is HIV positive and purposely having unprotected sex hoping to spread it to others?

Fact is, what this women did in many States is considered a crime. It is called "Criminal Transmission of HIV".

Here is a Man in South Carolina who was sentenced to 4 years for knowingly having HIV and having sex with dozens of women including his wife, whom he did infect.



Here is a case of a Soldier, sentenced to 30 months in Leavenworth and was dishonorably discharged. If more victims come forward, it is said the case could be reopened and he could even be charged with Attempted Murder.
Soldier jail for spreading HIV

Here is another case out of Indiana, again this man "failed to inform" his partners of his HIV positive status.
Man serving 6 year sentence

So if in your view this case is a show of one man's irresponsibility for not asking his partner- then how do you explain the cases I linked? How can these people be charged with a crime, if it is the potential victim who is at fault?

reply to post by newcovenant

Thirty-six states and territories have laws that criminalize HIV exposure and/or nondisclosure of HIV status for sexual contact, needle-sharing, and/or contact with “body fluids” such as saliva. Even in states that do not have specific laws on HIV exposure or disclosure requirements, people living with HIV have been prosecuted under general criminal laws, such as assault or attempted murder. Although these laws criminalize conduct that is either consensual (both people agreed to it) or carried no significant risk of HIV transmission, these laws can be used to prosecute people just for being HIV positive.

.

According to hivlawandpolicy.com it is illegal and you can be arrested.

reply to post by maus80


If you and I each pricked our fingers and I asked you to stick your open wound to mine knowing the entire time that I was positive and only after the consentual act was over told you I was in fact HIV positive would you simply say 'well, there's nothing wrong with it because I consented to it'? or would you maybe be pissed off at me and try to hurt me? The act of consentual sex is not in question, the fact that she knowingly put his life at risk and he reacted in an unusual manner to an unusual situation is what is in question.

Originally posted by nightstalker78

Originally posted by biggmoneyme
it's difficult for a woman to give a man hiv.

Oh really now? Care to back that up with some real stats?

Yes, it is a 1 in 2000 chance (that's actually a low estimate it's more like 1:4000). He would have had to sleep with her 2000 (4000) times on average to get HIV. Female to Male transmission is nearly impossible.

reply to post by OccamsRazor04

That's the second time someone has suggested that men can pretty much sleep around with HIV Positive women with little to no concerns.... Oddly, it was a concern to really shake people to their toenails when 1/3rd of the prostitutes working the truck stops in Gary, Indiana turned out HIV positive. For all this talk about 'nearly impossible', those long odds had the local Police Department posting that notice about the % of recently tested and confirmed HIV lot lizards on the front door or windows of all the truck stops up there. Gary is a major truck stop center in the U.S.. There are at least one of each major chain in a few mile stretch, and 2 of each for two of the chains, when I was last up there a few years ago.

So...for the fuss I've personally seen and the outright terror I've witnessed in drivers who, obviously, had been doing more than having conversation with their 'Commercial Company' at those truck stops, I'd dearly LOVE a link to a Government (Any Government with credibility in the world) or a respected organization that shows 1:2000 or even 1:4000 or..higher odds AGAINST infection by unprotected sexual intercourse with a fully infected female.

On the off chance anyone finds such a bit of proof I'll wander back in the morning to see... I'll be genuinely interested to see what the stats show, if in fact stats exist anywhere to support those assertions.... Thanks in advance!

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by OccamsRazor04

 

That's the second time someone has suggested that men can pretty much sleep around with HIV Positive women with little to no concerns.... Oddly, it was a concern to really shake people to their toenails when 1/3rd of the prostitutes working the truck stops in Gary, Indiana turned out HIV positive. For all this talk about 'nearly impossible', those long odds had the local Police Department posting that notice about the % of recently tested and confirmed HIV lot lizards on the front door or windows of all the truck stops up there. Gary is a major truck stop center in the U.S.. There are at least one of each major chain in a few mile stretch, and 2 of each for two of the chains, when I was last up there a few years ago.

So...for the fuss I've personally seen and the outright terror I've witnessed in drivers who, obviously, had been doing more than having conversation with their 'Commercial Company' at those truck stops, I'd dearly LOVE a link to a Government (Any Government with credibility in the world) or a respected organization that shows 1:2000 or even 1:4000 or..higher odds AGAINST infection by unprotected sexual intercourse with a fully infected female.

On the off chance anyone finds such a bit of proof I'll wander back in the morning to see... I'll be genuinely interested to see what the stats show, if in fact stats exist anywhere to support those assertions.... Thanks in advance!

Prostitutes are women. Women will more easilly contract HIV from an infected male, and anal sex will transmit more easilly as well. Add that to the number of times prostitutes have sex, and it's not a big surprise. There is also a lot of drug use in that profession.
Here are links. I think these estimates are high, most sources range from 1:1000 to 1:8000.
www.aidsmap.com...
Vaginal sex, female-to-male, studies in high-income countries
0.04% (1:2380)