Say a phrase, and you are saved...

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Paul isn't talking about gentiles here, he is talking about Israel as the context says.

So Pauls messages were only meant for the Israelites and not the Gentiles? Are you telling me that Pauls statement "it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. " does not apply to you?

First address the verse in question.... Romans 10:9-10.

Paul states "it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
You say mouthing words is not necessary.

You contradict Paul. Which one of you two should I believe?

What a great thread...S&F

I loved reading the replies to your simple question.

I find it interesting who thinks they are going to heaven and why.

Some people seem to treat it as "a game" of numbers.

I can see it now. A new reality TV show...Who's going to Heaven.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Paul isn't talking about gentiles here, he is talking about Israel as the context says.

So Pauls messages were only meant for the Israelites and not the Gentiles? Are you telling me that Pauls statement "it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. " does not apply to you?

First address the verse in question.... Romans 10:9-10.

Paul states "it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved."
You say mouthing words is not necessary.

You contradict Paul. Which one of you two should I believe?

What did Paul say just prior to that? I brought this up on the last page also, but perhaps you didn't catch it.

Originally posted by whyamIhere
What a great thread...S&F

I loved reading the replies to your simple question.

I find it interesting who thinks they are going to heaven and why.

Some people seem to treat it as "a game" of numbers.

I can see it now. A new reality TV show...Who's going to Heaven.

I don't see it that way, you either trust and rely on Christ or you don't.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, I've heard of that perspective before. In fact, I read a book a couple of years ago that couched evangelism and holy living in terms of similarity to a video game -- scoring points, getting achievements and so on, and you cash in your points on "crowns" at the end. I'm sure that the author was trying to connect with younger readers in a way that would be meaningful to them, but to me, it was a little off-putting.

But your description is a good way of demonstrating that works have merit, thanks for that -- the Arminian in me is right on board with you :-)

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I don't see it that way, you either trust and rely on Christ or you don't.

I completely agree with your statement.

And I do...

Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Yes, I've heard of that perspective before. In fact, I read a book a couple of years ago that couched evangelism and holy living in terms of similarity to a video game -- scoring points, getting achievements and so on, and you cash in your points on "crowns" at the end. I'm sure that the author was trying to connect with younger readers in a way that would be meaningful to them, but to me, it was a little off-putting.

But your description is a good way of demonstrating that works have merit, thanks for that -- the Arminian in me is right on board with you :-)

My mother was that way. She believed that she had earned a crown in heaven and that her constant suffering earned her jewels in that crown. She would often sigh and say "I'm earning another jewel for putting up with........"

My mother had a fairly cushy life. The source of her perceived suffering was staying with my father, for our sake, of course. My father had anger issues that especially flared up when she went into her "holier that thou" rants, speaking in tongues and cursing him to hell!

One time she and I went for a walk and she began to lament about "Daddy" and how many jewels her heavenly crown would have. I told her that the line in heaven, to claim that crown, would be very long, as she would be standing behind a lot of Jews, black people and other indigenous people who suffered greater pain that she did. She really didn't like the thought of that!

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Spirit quickened Proverbs 24:16 when reading your post. The just man falls, yet keeps getting back up to continue the race, the wicked man falls and stays down.

No kidding, i hadn't even read that yet. Amazing how he speaks through us sometimes and we don't even know it. Not the first time i said somthing scriptural and didn't know it, only to find out later it's there. That stuff always amazes me.

Originally posted by jhill76

My question would be:
- Why do many think this is all it takes, just say a one line sentence, and now you are given access to heaven?
- Doesn't it take more (faith, works, belief) to be a true believer?
- Why isn't it explained that it takes more than a few sentences to be truly saved?

It takes a LOT more! Read from Matthew to Acts 1

The way mainstream Christianity live their lives today show their miserable lack of understanding of the teachings of Jesus and the Bible. They love the world more than what God is saying. Their hearts deceive them. They twist the Bible to suit their lifestyles to enjoy the things of this world.

I used to be Pentecostal/Evangelical Christian for two decades, until God called me to return to him. Today, I just try to follow Jesus and seek God with all I got!

To answer your question, let's see what Jesus says about having eternal life, not some Roman by the name of Paul.

Matthew 19:16-17
And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"

"And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus said "What is written in the law? How do you read?"

And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."

And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."

Did he lie to these people when he answered their questions? Why would he leave the most important part out? Why did he mention nothing about faith or salvation? Did those people end up going to hell because Jesus lied to them? These are questions a Christian must answer.

You see, the idea of salvation and faith being your only ticket into heaven was an idea made up in the minds of the Romans, Jesus never once says that you must believe he died on the cross to get to heaven.

Why would you believe what a Roman said about Jesus?

Weren't the Romans the ones who rounded up early followers of Jesus and crucified them for what they believed?

How could you believe what Paul said? He was a Roman who made up a story about getting a visit from the dead Jesus so that he could completely alter what Jesus taught.

Most Christians will deny that Paul was a fraud because he is the one who started teaching the things they have been so thoroughly indoctrinated into believing, but it is the truth. Paul was a fraud, possibly someone who never even existed but was made up by the Romans in order to take control of what Jesus taught and to twist his message in order to hide the truth in it.

Funny how Jesus was tried in a Roman province then sentenced to crucifixion by a man employed by Romans isn't it?

Also funny is after Jesus died, a Roman named Paul who previously persecuted and killed those who followed Jesus had a visit from the now dead Jesus telling him stuff that Jesus never said while alive, isn't it? And the only "proof" we have of this visit from Jesus is the word of a man who previously killed followers of Jesus.

If you can't smell the stink of that, you are most likely a Christian who believes in salvation.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Most of what you say is true. But it is not Paul who is to blame. It is the early Roman church who came up with an interpretation of Paul's writings that we still teach today. Most people are so indoctrinated into the modern churches view of Paul's message that they can't break free from the traditions that have been handed down.

The writings from Paul have been so poorly interpreted it is impossible for anyone to agree on what he said. But if one looks for the answer from the Holy Spirit and leaves the interpretation completely to God they will find the truth in Paul's writings. And the truth agrees with the Christ.

reply to post by sacgamer25


What Paul wrote was in Latin and Latin was the official language of Rome at the time. Are you saying that Romans misinterpreted what Paul said even though it was in their own language?

What Paul taught is extremely clear and goes against what Jesus taught in many ways while still throwing in stuff never said by Jesus while alive.

He even called himself "father" in order to give him some kind of authority so that he could set up the church and claim its authority.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


I'm not saying the actual words are not translated correctly. What I am saying is that the church has no idea what Paul was teaching. They have taken Paul's words and misunderstood what he was saying. Much of what the church accepts for interpretation is actually contradicted in Paul's own writings. The church is not even close to understanding Paul.

reply to post by sacgamer25


If you read his words you will get what he means. He is very clear in his teachings. Here's a link to show you how he directly contradicts several of Jesus' teachings.

Paul was the anti-christ and his legacy lives on with the church, no matter its denomination.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


In many ways your link supports my point. People do not understand what Paul was writing. Everything is taken either out of context or simply misunderstood.

Peter agrees when he says this.

2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

reply to post by sacgamer25


What does he mean then? They obviously don't agree with what Jesus said so how can you trust them?

Please explain how his obviously contradictory statements don't contradict what Jesus taught. Or do you also not understand them and just decide to blindly follow them anyways?

You also realize that Jesus calls Peter Satan at one point right? Why would you listen to Satan, the father of lies?

reply to post by NOTurTypical

IMHO it's vital to start and end any doctrine with Christ. Did He say He would cast anyone out who called upon His Name? That's why there exists the doctrine of rewards for faithfulness. Someone could potentially lose all their rewards, but they are still saved. I can't fathom why anyone would try and lose rewards, but any doctrine cannot nullify what Christ said. He said He will in no wise cast out any man who called upon His Name. All saved people will enter heaven, but not all those will inherit heaven. Justification only accounts for the Penalty for sin, Hell. One's standing in Heaven and the earning or loss of rewards is based on faithfulness of service to the Lord and the motive for serving Him. Paul talks about the misfortune of people who will lose all rewards for lack of works or ones "burnt up" because they were done with a perverse motive, but they are still saved people. They won't go to Hell because of Christ's sacrifice, but they have no rewards to show for their service.

This is all a total fabrication.
It may be true that your cult has such doctrines as you describe, But not the Bible or the Apostles or the prophets or Jesus or God.
You can sit on your imaginary throne above God's and proclaim all these to be true, but they are a delusion that will end the believer of these lies in hell.
What you are doing is taking a big collection of little fragments of verses and arranging them the way you want, completely out of context, to make it teach something that is never taught in the Bible.
The Bible makes it clear enough that the workers of iniquity, and sinners will never enter Heaven. What you are doing is making up an imaginary process that gifts people an artificial righteousness to get them through the gate. There is of course no such thing and justification is exactly what it sounds like, it is a process of being made just, which is the turning away from living the worldly life and living the heavenly life right here on earth. Righteousness by faith is following the dictates of the spiritual law which is understood through a connection with God that Paul calls faith. It is not just somehow believing you are "saved" then your special ability of making yourself believe it gains you access to heaven. That is just another false form of salvation by your own works, where the "work" is just the power of self delusion. God demands actual works, but the sort of thing that helps others in a practical sort of way. Just going around in a dream that you are somehow already saved serves no purpose whatsoever, and puts you on equal footing with the Pharisees of Jesus' time, believing they were holy and righteous following man made regulations that were nothing but a show.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

What did Paul say just prior to that? I brought this up on the last page also, but perhaps you didn't catch it.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.


Regardless of whatever he said prior to that, Paul still emphasized on the importance of mouthing words to be "saved". He repeats it twice in those 2 verses.

Perhaps he never knew that some people are born deaf/mute..and would be unable to declare or profess anything to get "saved".

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

As for the once saved always saved doctrine, it's based on salvation not coming by anything we have done by works. That it is a gift of love free of merit that we did not deserve and could never earn and because we never merited salvation to begin with, it will not be taken away on our merits. A gift is not a gift if it comes with conditions, such as the conditional covenants God made with Israel prior to the second covenant.

Entering through the gates of Heaven is not the gift. "Saved", in terms of something outside of us, that was done for us, was the works of Jesus as our savior, to create a way for us to be better persons than we could be otherwise, by Jesus vanquishing the hold that sin has on us, and to provide the way for the spirit from God to dwell in us to good works.
What you are doing is parroting a distorted philosophy and not real understanding of the teachings of the Bible.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Regardless of whatever he said prior to that, Paul still emphasized on the importance of mouthing words to be "saved".

Paul was expounding on what he was saying earlier about circumcision.
That particular body part is not what is involved in your salvation, it is the other parts, the mouth, by what you say, and the heart, by how you feel. The tell here is when he says, "for both the Jew and the gentile."