Say a phrase, and you are saved...

reply to post by ahnggk


They were Spirit filled at this point, it was years after the outpouring at Pentecost. I have no idea why you would say that. This is at Acts 15, and the crux of the matter hinged on the fact that the Gentiles had the Holy Spirit apart from circumcision and the law. That fact was the evidence that they were saved apart from the law.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

They were Spirit filled at this point, it was years after the outpouring at Pentecost. I have no idea why you would say that. This is at Acts 15, and the crux of the matter hinged on the fact that the Gentiles had the Holy Spirit apart from circumcision and the law. That fact was the evidence that they were saved apart from the law.

I meant the decision especially by James was not Spiritually - guided. He took the calling of the flesh - to make it easy (to the flesh) and established a law to be followed, much like Old Covenant way of doing things - through knowledge instead of being given a new nature, new instinct through the Holy Spirit.

However the Gentiles at that time may have had the Holy Spirit as Old Covenant laws disturbed them.

There is a problem with written laws as it's inclined to be misunderstood or very limited. Example:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

To many, it gives the obvious picture of not serving other gods like Buddha, Allah, etc and/or not keeping carved idols and images of deities including God himself.

But according to the Holy Spirit, it deals a lot more. Other than worshiping other deities, images, anytime you placed any value upon the works of man, the pride of life, it has become your god. Never place any value in these things, for these are passing away. Don't even dream of having a good life in this world for God will judge this world later and be destroyed by his fiery wrath. Do not esteem the things which are subject of God's wrath.

reply to post by yahushuasaves


The context here is included right before verses dealing with mourning for the dead. Yet, it would also be clear that it is speaking of pagan haircuts and the customs of the nations in worshiping other gods. This was a prevalent practice back then. If you read Paul very carefully without any bias, you will realize that he never said the Law was unprofitable or done with. He was clarifying that keeping the Law and trusting in your own righteousness to save you is a lie, and another gospel. Keeping the Law cannot save us.

Yahushua is our salvation and our perfect sacrifice. In Him we are saved, by grace through faith. Yet part of faith is keeping His commandments which includes the Torah. So He grants us grace and salvation, apart from the Law. That much is clear. Part of fearing God, is to keep His commandments. If Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, and forever, then the Law cannot be abolished. Therefore, because of salvation (not of ourselves it is the gift of God) we must still follow the Law to prove we are saved. As the fruit of it, if you will. Otherwise, we will be least in the kingdom of heaven. The righteous man or woman will understand this issue, since the very righteousness we are to have is defined by the Law. Was not Abraham called righteous because He followed Yahweh? Did he not see the promises afar off? Obedience and loving Yahweh is keeping His commandments. It is not difficult to at least try. Will we stumble? Of course. Yet, that is why grace is extended to us in all such instances.

The Law is to be in the Millennium. Why would the order be: Law--->Christ and Law abolished--->Law again during the 1000 year reign? This is nonsense. The Law is at least until heaven and earth pass away. Not one stroke will pass until then. I leave you with these verses:

John 5:46 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me"

John 5:47 " But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? ?

Originally posted by yahushuasaves
The Law is to be in the Millennium. Why would the order be: Law--->Christ and Law abolished--->Law again during the 1000 year reign? This is nonsense. The Law is at least until heaven and earth pass away. Not one stroke will pass until then. I leave you with these verses:

Law wasn't totally abolished in the New Covenant. Instead of being written in paper, it simply became written in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.

Anyone reborn of the Spirit will begin to manifest the fruits of the Law even if no one told them - assuming the false Gospel is not around to deceive them.

The law being put in action in the 1000 year reign is for those who did not receive the Holy Spirit, thus, they have to be subjected under a law to act lawfully/righteously.

If you have the Holy Spirit with you and not been deceived by the false Gospel yet, you will fulfill the law, act lawfully/righteously even if no other person told you, even if no one is looking or around to enforce the law.

reply to post by ahnggk


The entire law and prophets are fulfilled in two laws. Love God with all your strength and mind, and love one's neighbor as themselves. The evidence that is congruent with this is the gentiles were given the Holy Spirit baptism apart from the law. And NOWHERE does it say we "manifest the fruits of the law", that's an invention. It does say however that we manifest the "fruits of the SPIRIT".

reply to post by yahushuasaves


With all due respect don't chide me over "context" when you ignore Acts 15 where it specifically says the matter of the council was to determine if Gentiles needed "to be circumcised and follow the law of Moses". And the verse in Leviticus 19 about "mourning for the dead" deals with cutting of the skin, where mourners would rub the burnt ashes of their loved ones into cuts on their skin. My POINT was if you really want to follow the law as a Gentile you need to follow everything, not your favorite laws. The whole thing without fail. New Covenant believers are made righteous through faith in Christ, apart from the law.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And NOWHERE does it say we "manifest the fruits of the law", that's an invention. It does say however that we manifest the "fruits of the SPIRIT".

No there isn't but since we are only speaking about the law, I have to be specific since the fruits of the Spirit is a vast topic which some would actually sound very crazy to be told.

The Bible we have is limited. The Holy Spirit tells you more.

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And NOWHERE does it say we "manifest the fruits of the law", that's an invention. It does say however that we manifest the "fruits of the SPIRIT".

No there isn't but since we are only speaking about the law, I have to be specific since the fruits of the Spirit is a vast topic which some would actually sound very crazy to be told.

The Bible we have is limited. The Holy Spirit tells you more.

"Vast topic"? No, it's just one verse. The fruit of the Spirit are listed in Galatians 5:22. It's quite a famous verse. I don't mean this offensively, but I would be extremely cautious adding to the scripture and claiming it came from the Holy Spirit. Rhema words from the Spirit never under any circumstances conflict with the written scriptures.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

My POINT was if you really want to follow the law as a Gentile you need to follow everything, not your favorite laws. The whole thing without fail. New Covenant believers are made righteous through faith in Christ, apart from the law.

I wouldn't recommend this for gentiles. Unlike Israelites we were not raised from the cradle knowing every nook and cranny of the Torah. 613 laws is alot to keep track of for someone not raised knowing them starting in diapers.

Originally posted by ahnggk

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

And NOWHERE does it say we "manifest the fruits of the law", that's an invention. It does say however that we manifest the "fruits of the SPIRIT".

No there isn't but since we are only speaking about the law, I have to be specific since the fruits of the Spirit is a vast topic which some would actually sound very crazy to be told.

The Bible we have is limited. The Holy Spirit tells you more.

The bible is not limited. We have the gospels and we were given Pentecost and the name of our God to carry us through. What more do you need? The entire point for the destruction of the temple was to signify that the second covenant of grace had begun and that fleshly labor was no longer required for righteousness. If you're going to follow the Law you better do it flawlessly because the law is perfect and it damns us all, even you. If you think you can be perfect your entire life and not fail in the tiniest way, you're welcome to try. A perfect law damns an imperfect people.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

"Vast topic"? No, it's just one verse. The fruit of the Spirit are listed in Galatians 5:22. It's quite a famous verse. I don't mean this offensively, but I would be extremely cautious adding to the scripture and claiming it came from the Holy Spirit. Rhema words from the Spirit never under any circumstances conflict with the written scriptures.

If you know me by now, you would have realized that I don't put most of Paul's writing as divinely inspired, although many would pass the test that's why I still quote Paul's writings.

I just don't separate 'gifts' from 'fruits'. I adhere to what Jesus said, so they are all 'fruits'. If you put them together, they are many and more.

John 14:12
I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Yes, there is more.

@lonewolf

The bible is not limited. We have the gospels and we were given Pentecost and the name of our God to carry us through. What more do you need?

If you got everything you need from the Bible, then we don't need to ask God for more truths, knowledge, wisdom, and nature of things.

Nowadays, it's incredibly easy to search the Bible, we got internet now. We even explanations from pastors right off our fingertips. We can search in less than a minute even if we don't know much about the Bible

But it's still missing some so I never stop asking God for knowledge and wisdom.

However, I still won't deny that the Bible will get you started in even greater things. It's still a great way to start your walk with Jesus but eventually, as a Pupa, you will eventually leave that 'shell' to search for greater things to get closer to God!

reply to post by ahnggk

Preach false 'Gospel for the Gentiles' the Lost Sheep starves.... Why did Jesus came? He came for the lost sheep of Israel...

It was Paul who had the idea of getting the gentiles involved.
Jesus clearly stated he came only for the lost sheep of Israel...and also specifically instructed his disciples to avoid gentile towns.

So just why were Peter and Pauls even concerned with the gentiles, as we see in Acts? It doesn't add up.
Paul knowingly or unknowingly disrupted the flow of events and complicated matters.

Jesus never had anything to do with the gentiles during his time on earth, but the bible tells us the gentiles were to become involved after Jesus was resurrected. "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations"

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


No, Peter first presented the gospel to the Gentiles after a vision from God.

reply to post by ahnggk


Paul didn't write Acts, and at the Jerusalem council where the apostles decided the matter for good, it was a unanimous decision. Gifts and fruit are two different things.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

My POINT was if you really want to follow the law as a Gentile you need to follow everything, not your favorite laws. The whole thing without fail. New Covenant believers are made righteous through faith in Christ, apart from the law.

Since I have come to faith in Christ, I am no longer a Gentile. I am a part of Israel. Gentile means "of the nations" or "out of covenant." Anyone who comes to the Messiah and Yahweh if they will love Him with their whole heart is Israel. Paul makes this very clear. I am now grafted into Israel because of the Messiah. The 10 Tribes are also grafted back into Israel. There is a difference between the House of Israel and Judah. The House of Israel the Northern Kingdom was divorced from Yahweh. Yet He said He would restore them. How is that possible? The Torah states that it cannot be that a divorced wife re-unites with her husband after being with another. This is an abomination. Yet, He said that He was going to do exactly this.

God cannot break His own law. Of course if the husband dies, she is free to marry whoever she wishes including Him. Death annuls the rule of this type of remarriage, and so the Messiah dying and rising again solves the problem of the divorced House of Israel. The mystery of the Gospel. If you are a Gentile, then by definition you are out of the promises of Israel. There is one faith delivered to all the saints in all generations, not 38,000 different denominations. Yahweh is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

As for following the entire Law, realize that some commandments were only for Levites, only for women, only for men, only for judges, only for courts, etc. I cannot follow the Law of say a Levite if I am in fact not a Levite. Some laws can only be followed when a Temple is present. Some laws only work in a Torah based judicial system. Some laws are for specific situations. Dispensationalism has ruined the definition of Law and grace which are hand in hand, not mutually exclusive. Everyone is taught that Israel and the Church are separate.

Jews are now associated with Israel when in fact there are TWELVE tribes not one. Also, whoever is not a blood Israelite is still Israel in Yahweh's eyes. So by definition, if you consider yourself a Gentile, you are not in Christ. Jesus is salvation apart from the Law, but we are to follow in His footsteps. To love Him is to obey Him and keep His commandments. Not what WOULD Jesus do, but what DID Jesus do? He kept the Law of God, perfectly yes, but this does not mean He did it for us. How is having fun with friends and family for eight days during Tabernacles bondage? How is knowing not to steal bondage? How is observing the Day of Atonement bondage? These days are His days, not "Jewish" days. How is it that a man loving his neighbor is a burden and something impossible?

II Timothy 4:3 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;"

Isaiah 30:10 "Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:"

Micah 2:11 "If a man walking in the spirit and falsehood do lie, saying, I will prophesy to you of wine and of strong drink; he shall even be the prophet of this people."

All the churches today tell you what you want to hear don't they? Is that not the biggest way to tell a liar? A wolf in sheep's clothing? A false teacher. Not that a teacher of truth cannot speak of good things. Just that the majority of the time the majority is wrong. In short, Jesus saves us not the Law. Are we always saved then? No. Sin is defined by the Law. Therefore, repent and turn away from sin. How do we not sin? By trying to keep His Law. For breaking the law is sin.

reply to post by yahushuasaves


Acts 15. The apostles unanimously rejected what you are teaching. You're a modern-day Judaizer. Read Acts 15.

Originally posted by yahushuasavesHow is having fun with friends and family for eight days during Tabernacles bondage? How is observing the Day of Atonement bondage?

Not necessary for salvation and in the New Covenant. Jesus desires mercy, not sacrifice. It would be better for you to do God's ultimate Will than doing traditions. Jesus had to ungergo those things as before the crucifixion, everyone is under the Old Covenant but Jesus. Jesus had the Holy Spirit with him but those around him aren't so he had to speak about the laws..

Come New Covenant, the laws will be written on your hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit. You will no longer steal, murder, bear false testimony, etc.. EVEN if no one told you for it will be your new nature!!!

The Old Covenant was not successful because it's very difficult to abstain from human nature. The New Covenant, new nature, it has become easy.

If you find it a struggle to abstain from your original worldly nature like you still get happy whenever you receive money, recognize it and keep seeking God. When it is no longer one of your joys but the Spirit only, then you're almost there. Money, possessions, pride of life, lust of the flesh - things of the flesh, if these still arouse you, make you happy. Keep asking God for rebirth. Rebirth will change your nature, it's true!

Originally posted by yahushuasaves
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Since I have come to faith in Christ, I am no longer a Gentile.

That would be correct.

Originally posted by yahushuasaves

Anyone who comes to the Messiah and Yahweh if they will love Him with their whole heart is Israel.

Not completely correct. Yah, the Egyptian moon god, does not save anyone. Jesus (EhJeh saves) does save.

You are also incorrect on needing the law for salvation.

reply to post by truejew


Oh no, if you read my posts again I make it clear that the Law does not save anyone. I simply explain that because we are saved by Jesus, as evidence of that salvation, we should strive to follow the Law. Can faith save one without works? Do they not have to work together? Jesus said that the scribes and Pharisees sit in Moses' seat so do everything they tell you, FROM THE SEAT. On that seat only the Torah is allowed to be read. No personal commentary or anything until they stand up. However he said do not do what they do, because they say and do not do. Obviously Yahushua was not against the Law of Moses. He rather established, upheld, and gave the correct interpretation of the Torah. Pharisees added to the Word of God, and such traditions are wickedness.

The works of the Law cannot save us. Faith and grace saves us. True faith also has works together with it, as evidence that you believe in Him. There are so many apparent contradictions with Paul and the Law, which are clarified with diligent study.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


To start off my brother in Christ, I cannot be one who makes people Jewish, since Jews are one Tribe of Israel with Judah and mostly remnants of Benjamin in the Southern Kingdom. Yahweh's Feast Days are forever. Always to be observed. Not Jewish Feasts, but God's. Also Yahweh made the covenant with the Israelites even with us today.

Deuteronomy 29:15 "But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day"and also with him that is not here with us this day:

If Yahweh never changes, then how can the Law of God which is at least until heaven and earth pass away be abolished? Obviously He makes it clear the Law is until at least heaven and earth pass away.

Matthew 5:18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Luke 16:17 "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail."

Luke 21:33 "Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away."

Deuteronomy 30:19 " I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both you and your seed may live:"

Psalm 119:152 "Concerning thy testimonies, I have known of old that thou hast founded them for ever."

Psalm 119:160 "Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever."

Is God lying in Psalm 119 and Deuteronomy and is the Messiah lying? May it never be. If you take the Messiah's words at face value you will see He never intended to abolish the Law. He came not to destroy but to fulfill (in greek the word is fully teach or make known wholly) the Law.

Jeremiah 31:31 "Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

As for Acts 15, this is clearly about works salvation. Works of the Law do not save us. Christ is our salvation with the blood of the New Testament, on top of all the other covenants. Circumcision does not save us, neither keeping His law. These cannot save us. However how do we give evidence of our salvation? Obedience and not legalistic keeping the Law. Relying on ourselves to save us is impossible. Obeying the Law because we are following Him, is not the same as trusting in works to save us. We know we are His if we keep His commandments. In other words, keeping score does not save us. Yet because we have been saved, we must obey His commandments. They were teaching works salvation when it is in fact apart from the Law. If a man be circumcised and keep not the Law it is of no value. If a man is not, yet strives to keep the Law and it is inward, then it is counted as circumcision. Then the man can pursue physical application once the heart is ready. The inside must be changed first, or the outward application is meaningless. I am not legalistic. I am going strictly from Scripture, not traditions of men.