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Organised Religion and Views On God

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posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 03:50 AM
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Organised Religion is something that affects billions of people around the world. The degree to which people are subjected to religious beliefs ranges from the strictly religious, religiously observant, secular to the irreligious. Even those that have been raised irreligious are bound to encounter religious beliefs at some point in their lives. This makes the topic of Organised Religion and its influence on society very important to discuss.

One does not need to actively adhere to a religious tradition in order to discuss Religion and beliefs about God. When one examines the nature of Organised Religion, many unanswered questions and inconsistencies about God seem to arise. The answers given by religious figures to these questions are usually vague and insufficient for those with an inquisitive mind.

If you hold strong religious views and are likely to be offended by those who question your beliefs, I advise you NOT to read further. I am not here to change your views, rather I encourage you to analyse your own views and decide for yourself whether they are plausible. The more honest you are within your own mind the better.

For the purpose of discussion, I will assume that those adhering to Organised Religion believe the following:
- God exists
- there is one God
- God is the creator of all life
- God will one day judge the actions of individuals
- God is omnipotent omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowledgeable), omnipresent (present everywhere) and omni-benevolent (all-loving)
- God is just; He will punish the wicked and reward the good
- God is righteous and merciful.

(I do realise there are different types of organised religion, but I believe the above is a relatively accurate summary of beliefs present in most organised monotheistic religions.)


Reverence


Questions:
1. Why does an entity which is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent and omni-benevolent require or even crave reverence from His creations?
2. Is it possible that God has any insecurities?
3. Does God get jealous?
4. If so, why does He get jealous?
5. Is reverence to God determined by your actions or your thought processes?


Free Will


Questions:
1. Why are we given Free Will?
2. Is God aware that Free Will itself allows for temptation and deviance?
3. Does God's omniscience make Free Will truly possible?
4. Does Free Will give us the opportunity to think critically?
5. Can God differentiate between those who follow out of fear and those who follow out of love?


Spreading the Word


Questions:
1. Why does God need human prophets to relay His word?
2. Why do His laws need to be kept in things such as books?
3. Why do humans need to speak in places of worship to show they are talking to God?
4. Why does God allow the existence of false prophets?
5. Why does God not communicate telepathically with his creations?


Evil problem


Questions:
1. Where does Evil originate from?
2. Could God foresee Evil existing when He created the universe?
3. Why does God allow Evil to exist?
4. Does God know humans are capable of Evil?
5. Why is Free Will given to beings that are capable of great Evil?


Hell problem


Questions:
1. Why does Hell exist?
2. Does God know about Hell?
3. Does God love His creations, or only those that follow His word?
4. Is God powerful enough to destroy Hell and free all those doomed to suffer there?
5. Does God love Satan more than He does man? If not, why does He permit Satan to deceive and doom His creations to such an awful fate?


Life Circumstances problem


Somebody born in Morocco and somebody born in New Zealand are likely to be exposed to very different cultures, traditions and lifestyles. Does the location of somebody's birth and upbringing (above their ability to control) determine their religious beliefs? Could God foresee that belief systems in humans would expand into thousands of different systems?


Other Faiths problem


There are people from all belief systems that claim to be correct about their beliefs. We know that there are many types of belief systems, some differ minimally some greatly. But the difference in one single belief indicates a different belief system. Why is a Christian that claims to be spreading Jesus' word right? Why is a Jew that claims to be spreading Yahweh's word right? Why is a Muslim who claims to be spreading Allah's word right?


Conclusion


If anyone reading through this thread can resolve these questions honestly within themselves, then I commend you. If you can evade the inconsistencies between what your head thinks and what your heart feels when contemplating them, then you are truly gifted. I hope this thread has encouraged those that have read it to examine their views about Religion and its views on God. As for me, I am still undecided whether God exists or not, but I do strongly believe that if He does, then one does not need to go through Organised Religion to find Him.




posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 05:19 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


I believe that The Father, The Son, and the Holy Spirit do exist. I don't believe in unconditional love. I believe that organized religion is deceptive.
I think that if people REALLY want the answers to their questions, they'd do some research, and if they aren't all that interested in finding out the truth then they'll seek out and accept simple answers from people rather than from The Scriptures and from The Holy Spirit. Personally I have learned a lot, not because anyone crammed anything down my throat, but because I have prayed and asked to be taught under the guidance of The Holy Spirit in order to discern truth from deception. What I learned is that at the church I used to go to was misleading the congregation. Of course I doubt that every single chuch in the world is corrupted, but I live in a small village, and if freemasonry and the order of the eastern star and the order of the trapezoid and the turtle club and especially hypnotism and brainwashing is alive and well in the little church I went to, with a little bit of luck and a whole lot of secrecy and twisting of the scriptures, people will be blind LEADING the blind.
I am ashamed to admit that I was a part of any sunday going, money collecting, synagog of satan, and I do plan on videotaping church service if I ever go again, for proof of satanism and luciferianism in the church. Most ministers gladly look down on depressed/grieving alcoholist/addict, saying "you better get right with God", then turning around and telling the congregation "we are all sinners, grace, grace, grace".
Organized religion that I am familiar with does not believe the Only begotten Son, and therefore do not believe that they are obligated to obey His laws.
The bible says that "sin is lawlessness" that "the wages of sin is death" but so many (not all) Christians say, "WE are ALL sinners!
If I admit that I've killed a person then am I justified by mere confession if I am a serial killer? I doubt it.
I am a sinner, BUT I personally don't believe that by admitting it that I am somehow justified or saved, to me it's like the churches I've seen are raising up sociopaths incapable of feeling guilt or remorse for defying their creator.
There you have it, that's my take on the situation, sorry I didn't answer those questions, like I said, if you truly want to know, you'd look for it your own self rather than digesting anything handed on a silver platter.
edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because: To add.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 01:37 PM
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I think most religious people could provide answers to those questions.
Especially in Christianity they would usually be based on God not wanting robots, and the willful disobedience of Eve and Adam.

I'd be more interested in the notion of "organized religion".
This seems to have become a scapegoat and loaded term.

Many popular religions and their ultra-organized ministries and churches today, for example, would claim that they are not "organized religions" or even a "religion"!
Despite such laughable claims, they still get tax benefits as a religion, even when they deny being a religion.

The term "religion" seems to be a comfortable term of abuse nowadays for religious sects to dump their more scandalous and evil traditions of the past, and to falsely present their doctrines as somehow outside history.

At least any scriptural based belief is really a religion, and comes with all the baggage of that scripture and the organized religion(s) that compiled it.

These are semantic games of manipulation.

Perhaps the binary opposite of "organized religion" is not "disorganized religion", but rather some kind of polytheism with aspects of various organized religions, or a movement from a central authority (like the Pope) to various self-styled prophets and their organizations.

In Christianity: The Jesus loves/hates religion rap wars:

From organized religion (at least more honest), a song titled "Why I love religion, and love Jesus".


From non-organized, and supposedly "non-religious" Christianity (a bit of an oxymoron).
"Michael Jacob - Why I hate religion, but love Jesus":


There's also a Muslim version: "Why I hate religion, but love Jesus":


In Eastern-based groups this was also true, for example in Rajneesh/Osho (the religion without religion) or ISKCON (with various claims of admitting or denying being a sect of Hinduism, or a unique "science of self-realization").

It sometimes seems like there's hardly any self-admitted "organized religion" left these days.
An endangered species, one might think by all the confusing claims.

So positing a question to "organized religions" may not be a clear-cut matter, because many religious groups themselves may believe they are in fact in opposition to organized religion.
edit on 9-9-2012 by halfoldman because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 02:07 PM
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If you hold strong religious views and are likely to be offended by those who question your beliefs, I advise you NOT to read further.

No, I'm good to Go! Great OP, stars and flaggies for you!!



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 02:42 PM
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Lets assume that the concept ALL IS ONE is correct and that whole is what some people call god. That would meant that everything that exists both know and unknown to man is connected to each other and the disconnection is an illussion. So creation and creator is in fact the same.

Think of this ONE as a collective concious made up of the whole of realities counciousness both know and unknown to man. A human body is seen as one whole but is built up of cells that are not individualy concious that I know of the whole that are built up of atoms. Just because humans think they are separate do not mean they are separate from the rest of a reality (or lesser universal) conciousness.

So on earth humans and animals can explore the feeling of being dissconnected from the whole and possibly evolve their understanding of the whole in spiritual form. In the unconcious exists something that guides the mind/ego that is created in your life and is temporary from my point of view since every second change that mind/ego.

So from my point of view god is suffering a bit from a Dissociative identity disorder and is trying to get the minds of its mind to be more harmonious to each other
. God is not finished evolving since a part of him that is me is still evolving. God is not perfect since all of the parts are not perfect yeet but we are getting there slowly. So do not ask what god can do for you but what you can do for god to ease the evolution
.

So how can we connect to god and say hello in a more direct approach than the normal thinking. The body seem to have a built in transmitter that is called the pineal gland/third eye and it seems mystics all over the world is using it to figure things out with different ways to activate the chakras (I use the chakra system since it seem to be the best system yeet to explain how the body works).

Humans create religons based on spiritual experiance of god but from my point of view Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Sikhs, Baghavagita (hinduism) and Toltec all preach nondualistic philophacy.

Above are my thoughts/views. Always question and find out for yourself.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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reply to post by apushforenlightment
 


Humans create religons based on spiritual experiance of god but from my point of view Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Sikhs, Baghavagita (hinduism) and Toltec all preach nondualistic philophacy.


Yeah, and I'd go further and say Jesus and Buddha (and possibly also the others, or current sects in the others) were reformers opposed to the organized religion of their time.



posted on Sep, 10 2012 @ 09:10 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by apushforenlightment
 


Humans create religons based on spiritual experiance of god but from my point of view Jesus, Buddha, Muhammed, Sikhs, Baghavagita (hinduism) and Toltec all preach nondualistic philophacy.


Yeah, and I'd go further and say Jesus and Buddha (and possibly also the others, or current sects in the others) were reformers opposed to the organized religion of their time.



Yes. I think Jesus is appaled by what is going on. But then I also belive calling Jesus lord is an insult to what he taught and wants to be called. People who call him lord have from my point of view not understood him at all.
. Call him holy, call him beloved, call him a brother. But calling him lord taints what he was and puts him on a lower level than he is.

And Christians please learn the differnance of the man Jesus and the Christ conciousness. Christ consiousness (loss of small mind and ego) comes to many so that they achive gnosis and is the way. Jesus preaching is a guiding that is as good as any to achive Christ conciousness but not the only guide that can be used. Christ conciousness existed before Jesus and will exist even if the prohet Jesus is totaly fogotten.

On other planets if there is concious life there will be people achiving the christ conciousness even if Jesus have never had a mission there. God knows what he is doing and is not letting people suffer for stupid reasons like human conditioning dogma. A little more faith in god would be nice and a little less faith in religons.
edit on 10-9-2012 by apushforenlightment because: spellchecking



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 03:31 AM
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I'm mostly with halfoldman here...most religious adherents would very easily be able to answer all your questions.

I'd also be curious about your understanding of the term "organised religion".

Catholicism is organised/has an organisation, I suppose. Most of the Orthodox Christian churches are. Anglican Christianity is. But most of the others?
Iran is a theocracy, so it could count as an organisation. But most muslims outside Iran give the religious leaders in Iran no authority. So how is it an organised religion? Same with Judaism.



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 06:34 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
I'm mostly with halfoldman here...most religious adherents would very easily be able to answer all your questions.


I'm sure they would have answers, but would the answers be logical and reasonable? It's not a difficult task to come up with answers; it's coming up with sufficiently reasonable answers that would be challenging.


I'd also be curious about your understanding of the term "organised religion".


My understanding of the term is that it involves religion being used in an organised manner; adherents using a systematic approach to express their core beliefs.

For example: attending Church, Mosque, Synagogue, Temple etc. to pray/worship in groups is an organised form of religious expression.


Catholicism is organised/has an organisation, I suppose. Most of the Orthodox Christian churches are. Anglican Christianity is. But most of the others?
Iran is a theocracy, so it could count as an organisation. But most muslims outside Iran give the religious leaders in Iran no authority. So how is it an organised religion? Same with Judaism.


It's not necessarily about giving political authority to a religious entity, but rather encouraging adherents to express their beliefs in a systematic fashion.

Non-organised (or would that be disorganised?) religion allows one a more personal and individualistic approach to expressing their religious beliefs.


edit on 11/9/2012 by Dark Ghost because: clarity



posted on Sep, 11 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


Excellent thread premise. S/F

I notice not many believers of "Organized" religion have yet to respond.

As for me, I am still undecided whether God exists or not, but I do strongly believe that if He does, then one does not need to go through Organised Religion to find Him.

I agree entirely.

As for the questions...the ones that bother me most are those that imply 'God' is jealous, will punish, yet gave us free will to screw up ad infinitum.....just so 'God' can then dish out punishment?
abusive parent, anyone?? Abusive lover? Abusive boss?

I can just hear it: "Do whatever you like, break the rules all you want....just wait and see what I'll do then...... Go ahead...C'mon then...GO AHEAD, DO IT!" *followed by hideous and disproportionate beating and threats of abandonment*....



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 11:13 AM
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Free will is one of my mega problems with religion, and I just can't believe in it.

Because they say we have free will, but they demand that we follow the rules and dogma to the letter of the law or we'll get punished.

Which pretty much deletes free will.

If we are meant to be robots, we shouldn't have free will, period.

And the only option according to organized religion is that you have to believe and worship God, or you will be sent to hell and tortured for all eternity.

I'm sorry, but despite my own faith I just can not see any real free will with that kind of an option.



posted on Sep, 13 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 


Originally posted by Dark Ghost
I'm sure they would have answers, but would the answers be logical and reasonable? It's not a difficult task to come up with answers; it's coming up with sufficiently reasonable answers that would be challenging.

Really, not really! I mean, you probably wouldn't accept them, because they involve belief in a god, but it would probably be pretty self-consistent and "logical and reasonable", yes, within the framework they are meant to operate (with regards to Christianity it would be the Bible, for example). They may not even all be the same answers from different people of the same supposed faith, but that would be because of different people's different interpretations (still internally self-consistent with regard to their scriptures) of their faith.

Honestly, your questions have been around for thousands of years. They were all probably conclusively "solved" (within the framework of whatever religion) before even the Middle Ages as far as Christianity (and probably even Islam, not to mention the older religions) goes.
edit on 13-9-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 01:53 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Any belief system can be validated within its own framework - that is the problem. That is why the framework itself needs to be examined for any faults before the beliefs can be accepted. Now, this also means that non-religious belief systems (such as science) are prone to the same problems; attempting to explain non-scientific phenomena using scientific means.

Nevertheless, unlike most religious traditions, science does not attempt to instill morals, codes of conduct or worship into its adherents.
edit on 14/9/2012 by Dark Ghost because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 02:39 AM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 

But that is the point. It is very difficult to validate (or invalidate) something outside of its framework. The axioms involved make it so.
Mathematics: 1+1=2. Why? Says who?
Science: Cause causes the effect. Stuff that we observe is stuff that happens, sometimes as a result of other stuff we observed in the past. Why? Says who?
The very concept of identity: I think, therefore I am. Why? Says who?

These are axioms that we just have to accept. They are very convenient ones that helped us advance pretty far in their respective fields, and consequently changed humanity for the better. But they're stuff we just have to take for granted.

The best we can hope for, is to judge consistency. Make sure they are internally consistent.

And not to say I adhere to the idea that science is a religion, or analogous to one, but many people can, and have used it to propose morality (see ethical naturalism or consequentialism), codes of conduct (the scientific method, for example), and worship (in the sense of adoration for the scientific method in and of itself, and total rejection of all understandings of our existence outside that...). Much of the time it was for the betterment of humanity, other times, we got stuff like eugenics and scientific racism.
edit on 14-9-2012 by babloyi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 07:37 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


You make some valid points.


----------------

Religion generally makes absolute claims without having a way to measure (prove or disprove) these claims. Most of the claims made by Religion are based on faith.

Science generally makes claims based on the best available truths that can be proven or disproven using the best available methods. Most of the claims made by Science are based on empirical evidence.

Science tends to evolve with age, whereas Religion does not.

Would you agree with the above?


edit on 14/9/2012 by Dark Ghost because: formatting



posted on Sep, 14 2012 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by Dark Ghost
 

Would I agree that science tends to evolve with age while religion doesn't? Not at all


Pick any religion (that was around) 500 years ago, and compare it to now. Definitely hugely different. Some of the changes were thanks to science too
. Heck, compare to 50 years ago, even.

(Did you know that just a couple years ago, the Catholic church officially announced that limbo, the inbetweeny place where unbaptised babies and people who were neither to good or bad, doesn't exist any more?
)



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