Pressure makes everything. Why not DNA?

Just thought of this yesterday. Though I am completely ignorant on this topic I can't help but ask: How did anything and everything come to be? Pressure!

Every mountain, rock, and grain of sand... It was all formed by pressure. And, I'm pretty sure it takes pressure to force elements together to make compounds.

Why not the same process to press together carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen, and oxygen? If pressure can cause carbon to become a diamond, then why can't pressure fuse together the elements and transform them into the information for life - the TCAG's? After completion of this pressurization, all that would need to happen is for this compound to be exposed to water - to soften it up and allow the process of life to occur.

Consider the drastic change of simple water droplets into elegant snowflakes or ice crystals. Isn't that the creation of information? Why wouldn't water droplets just freeze into drops?

The formation of snowflakes is more of a representation of information rather than the creation of it, as a result of the laws of physics. As for your pressure suggestion, I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that. The "pressure" that causes molecules to form is different from the pressure that causes mountains to form, and let alone DNA to exist. I'm no expert on the topic, but I also don't think dropping DNA into water will create life. Sorry to sound so negative, I just think its not as simple as pressure

reply to post by jiggerj


Elements are formed through different processes and forces. Crystalline structures can be pressed into more compact crystal shapes hence mountains etc. Imagine 4 round magnets that both attract and repell one another so that there is a best distance at which they sit comfortably from one another. (Think 3D) If we apply pressure we can force them to sit slightly closer to one another. Since they are closer the space between them is shorter. The shorter the space between them (i.e the bond) the harder it is to break. I.e what is in your pencil is the same as what is in your diamond the difference between them is the length of the bonds in the structure.

Pencils have sheaths of carbon each sheath is connected through a slightly longer weaker bond. When you write the sheaths break off from one another and attaches to the paper but in diamonds this longer bond is compressed so that all the connections between carbon atoms are shorter and hence stronger. (this is the brief explanation) This is the reason why your pencil can be used as a lubricant to say loosen up a hard zipper on jacket or boots.

But the original atom or molecule is not caused from pressure mostly compounds are formed through endo or exo thermic processes i.e the addition or removal of heat. Hence why the basic elements are formed in stars.

Maybe one way of seeing it is if you have an atom connecting to itself over and over to form a molecule this molecule's properties can be changed using pressure. (A very rough simplification of the problem)

If you have several different atoms forming a molecule it will enter into an atom exchange with other molecules and the pressure will determine whether it is a fast or slower process or whether the molecule is formed at all at a certain temperature. On a more complex level complex organic molecules also have 2 versions of them which are called mirror images. The mirror images have different properties in them selves and in the body often one is active and the other not.

If pressure was all that was needed we would need no Bunsen burners in chemistry lab.



And for my chemistry fellows out there I know this is not the technical in depth explanation but hopefully it might help someone who's not a chemistry buff to understand the problem a little more

On the why water does not freeze into drops and what happens when water freezes (explanation of the crystal lattice etc)
Raindrops do however sometimes freeze into drops - which is called 'sleet'

www.its.caltech.edu...

DNA is in a state of semiosis, snowflakes are not. The question that must be asked is what mechanism is capable of producing a semiotic state?

We have an arrangement of matter that represents a symbolic non physical form of information. We need to have a defined set of symbols. We also need a transmission medium.

The symbolic information is non physical, not reducable to physical law but the arrangement representing it is.

We then need a second arrangement of matter capable of recieving the physical transmission, not only that we also need protocols to preserve the non physical symbolic information conveyed.

No, there is no known material mechanism that can produce it beyond consciousness.

Originally posted by Acronychal
The formation of snowflakes is more of a representation of information rather than the creation of it, as a result of the laws of physics. As for your pressure suggestion, I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than that. The "pressure" that causes molecules to form is different from the pressure that causes mountains to form, and let alone DNA to exist. I'm no expert on the topic, but I also don't think dropping DNA into water will create life. Sorry to sound so negative, I just think its not as simple as pressure

edit on 9-9-2012 by Acronychal because: (no reason given)

LOL You can be negative all you want because I have no clue either. It just seemed likely because everything else in the universe is created from pressure.

Originally posted by IAmD1


If pressure was all that was needed we would need no Bunsen burners in chemistry lab.

And for my chemistry fellows out there I know this is not the technical in depth explanation but hopefully it might help someone who's not a chemistry buff to understand the problem a little more

Oh, I'm not saying that pressure is all that is needed. What I'm thinking is that 'pressure' might play a part in the creation of life. A part that hasn't been considered (to my knowledge).

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by IAmD1


If pressure was all that was needed we would need no Bunsen burners in chemistry lab.

And for my chemistry fellows out there I know this is not the technical in depth explanation but hopefully it might help someone who's not a chemistry buff to understand the problem a little more

Oh, I'm not saying that pressure is all that is needed. What I'm thinking is that 'pressure' might play a part in the creation of life. A part that hasn't been considered (to my knowledge).

Pressure is always considered in science in relation to heat and other forces.
Your bone structure for one would not be the same if it wasn't for pressure.... had you been born in an environment free of gravity for instance you would not have formed such strong bones... and i agree life as you know it might not have formed at all had the pressure not been right. Actually will go so far as to say it would not have. To say that pressure is not considered in the formation of life I believe is incorrect. So my question to you what makes you feel it has been overlooked?

Originally posted by IAmD1

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by IAmD1


If pressure was all that was needed we would need no Bunsen burners in chemistry lab.

And for my chemistry fellows out there I know this is not the technical in depth explanation but hopefully it might help someone who's not a chemistry buff to understand the problem a little more

Oh, I'm not saying that pressure is all that is needed. What I'm thinking is that 'pressure' might play a part in the creation of life. A part that hasn't been considered (to my knowledge).

Pressure is always considered in science in relation to heat and other forces.

Your bone structure for one would not be the same if it wasn't for pressure.... had you been born in an environment free of gravity for instance you would not have formed such strong bones... and i agree life as you know it might not have formed at all had the pressure not been right. Actually will go so far as to say it would not have. To say that pressure is not considered in the formation of life I believe is incorrect. So my question to you what makes you feel it has been overlooked?

Because whenever I come across info on the formation of life I get the impression of the needed elements floating in water, and somehow (almost magically) unite to form amino acids and RNA, then DNA. This never answers the question of how did the "information" form in order for the inanimate to become animate. There has to be another step involved that we've overlooked. And I'm thinking if the needed elements were held under great amounts of pressure (buried deep within the earth) maybe this pressure can force the elements into popping out the TCAG genes needed for life.

Admittedly, it was just an ill-informed, uneducated, shot in the dark.

reply to post by jiggerj

Those are the best shots imo - we a. learn the most from them and b. might actually consider something that someone more informed has not.


This is what ATS and sites like it are for all questions are there to be answered in the fight against ignorance imo

This might be of interest
www.evolutionfaq.com...

together with this
www.evolutionfaq.com...

reply to post by jiggerj


The information is in the molecules themselves however it is the arrangement that conveys it's meaning. Think of the molecules like letters they have an individual amount of data. Arranged properly they carry meaning beyond their physical properties. You have two sets of information. Classical physical properties reducable to physical law and a arbritary form of symbolism that is not reducable to physical law. Meaning it can't be touched, it's conceptual.

Can you squeeze language from a rock?

Your questions regards information. In this case the real question is...

What mechanism is capable of producing a semiotic state? In all respects a transfer of digital information. What requirements and protocols need to be in place? And how?

Your well beyond what pretty patterns can do at this point.

You've definately asked the right question though! The ultimate mystery of life! Good luck!

Originally posted by squiz

Can you squeeze language from a rock?

I love it!