A Common Man's Guide to the Federal Budget.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000

Originally posted by Mickierocksman
Can you (or anyone) please explain to me how your economy with over 16 Trillion in debt can be made financially viable & how it can even think it can continue on the road its on?

Thanks

Mickierocksman

(trimmed for space

)

You hit the million dollar question and one of the boards that didn't make the final thread. What I came to think of as my 'Whammy board'. It just had a couple factual issues I couldn't reconcile entirely. However..how do we fix it? You want the easy or hard answer to that?

Hard Answer (and probably only working one):

The United States comes to outright embrace the word austerity for several long years with MUCH higher taxes over MUCH lower benefits. It's the only way, with BOTH areas at once, to bring the numbers down. As others noted, the debt has become exponential with interest feeding interest and growing whether we add to it or not. So...

We not only need to bring the deficit to 0 and into full surplus as Clinton did, but go beyond that. FAR beyond it. If you look at the Deficit/Debt board under Clinton's surplus years, you see the debt still grew. Compound interest is an evil little thing. It never rests, it never stops...it just plods along by the laws of math.

So....Until we have surplus large enough to cover the interest due annually AND go beyond that to actually attack principle....well... It's hard to see how that happens, huh?

Under current 1+ trillion deficits? We're probably talking upwards of 50% cuts to really see the debt number start to shrink...then several years of living at that level. Of course, we need 100% TRUST in our leaders that when the problem was solved, the 'austerity' hell would go away. Trust isn't easy to build either, IMO.

------

The Whammy solution (Nightmare option):

This is what I left off the formal boards. There *IS* a way to pay the national debt and it could be done overnight. At least....for a short time. Soon, even this solution won't work for the math. However, for the time being.....there exists enough in IRA/401k/Pensions (that aren't negative already) and similar retirement funding to entirely cover the national debt. 100% and with some to spare. Ireland has been doing this in small ways. Britain has suggested doing it as have other E.U. members. It's not a unique or new idea and it would work.

The numbers for this are contained in the Federal Reserve Bank statements dealing with Money circulation and how much is currently out there....including in savings and retirement accounts.

I call it the nightmare option because it would literally steal the life savings and retirement hopes and dreams of a good % of the U.S. population...and I believe it would immediately trigger catastrophic unrest. Ask me how I'll feel if I see my Mother broken and ruined as a person because everything she's worked her life to give herself, in her golden years, is stolen out from under her by Uncle Sam? Now multiply me by 10's of millions. Nightmare indeed.

Neither of those are likely to happen.

The first one would be political suicide for the administration/party in office. We all know that almost every politician cares about staying in power, not fixing things. The average American voter is to short sighted and stupid to know or care about what needs to be done.

The second option would end in open revolt. No question about that in my mind.

Wrabbit2000 that is one major presentation! It is going to be a lot of time before I can go through all of it but one main thing really got me was part of your signature line. It sort if sums up the reason WHY everyone should view this: Knowledge is power. I have lived by that statement, and my kids have had it drilled in their heads. Not literally.

You cant vote on much of anything without understanding the basics in history or the way the governmment works, the economy. Far too many people these days vote with ignorance and it is sad.

Thank you for this.

reply to post by DarthOej

Of course, the problem is.....there is no viable 3rd option. That is what makes it scary. I agree with you in saying the 2 options I present at the end of the past page are not workable....but when nothing else exists, it has to be one of the two or a variation.

When I was with Occupy last fall, I'd asked an Economics Professor who was in camp doing a 'teach-in' on economics from the University of Illinois across the river about this. He was extolling the virtues of a socialist base system and how it was far superior to capitalism. Whatever we each feel on that subject, the point I brought up was asking what we do about the building debt owed to places like China, Japan and others. This was a tenured Professor of Economics, mind you.....and his answer?

'They'll just have to forgive it. They have no choice'. Said as causally as you could want.

These seem to be the Plan B solutions in the minds of those running the debt up into realms we literally cannot even visualize anymore. My first board describes a Trillion in many ways. It's now 16 Trillion for debt. It will be 21 Trillion in 2017 and 25 Trillion in 2022. How do we even make sense of those numbers?

Originally posted by PatrickGarrow17
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Yeah, hope saying the overall problem being obvious wasn't taken as offensive. The details are crucial.

My take on the problem:

Many citizens are taking the easy way out in blaming the government for being inefficient. The fact is WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT. Or at least, have the potential to be.

Cutting into the deficit and debt is a matter of the public taking responsibility above all else. Each of us taking a bigger role in the services that the government is now providing inefficiently.

Let's stop using charity as an excuse not to pay taxes. Let's get rid of write-offs for donations. It just doesn't make sense. By allowing a tax deduction for community service, we are limiting our ability to solve these problems in private-public sector collaboration. Essentially, private charitable giving is funded by the government.

Only 26% of Americans over 16 years old are volunteering. So much of the deficit, as shown in your graphic, is due to the government assisting people in poverty. What if the majority started donating four hours a week to helping the needy? How would that effect the burden on poverty assistance?

It's the wealthy that primarily benefit for charitable tax write offs.

This problem requires a concerted effort by the current generation to do more for society.

Instead of the federal government providing health insurance, why not have counties provide a low cost public funded health clinic to reduce overall costs in a preventative fashion?

Create a dynamic education system where public colleges in urban areas are given incentive to assist in primary education at local schools. I live in Albany County. SUNY Albany has an enrollment of 18,000 students. Albany city schools have a total population of just over 9,000 and are graduating 50%. If we inserted college students into high school classrooms, students would have younger more relate-able role models. Ask the student population to spend three hours a week as teachers assistants in exchange for a tuition break.

Instead of having a small percentage of people working full time in government, we should have a large percentage of people working part time. Have local taxes payable in direct community service. A huge percentage of local budgets is employee salary. How about instead of having 1,000 full time teachers, we have 20,000 professionals from the community rotating. A more real world education promoting a community system, helping the poor to liberate themselves through education and thus lowering the burden of Federal Gov.

Make community service a part of the high school curriculum as well.

A big part of reducing spending lies in diminishing the probability of war. In my opinion, this is also a cultural/social solution. By increasing cultural learning in the public school system and creating a young population of people who are interested and friendly toward cultures like Islam and China we will gain sympathy and anti-Americanism would be reconsidered.

Presentations like what you've provided here are essential. We have a drastic problem that requires a drastic change to the status quo in order to survive. The political system itself needs reform, particularly in areas of interest group financing. Through a grassroots movement toward higher individual political responsibility and an increase in identifying self with government, the system is more likely to fix itself.

I'm 21 years old, and I feel that attitudes must change among my demographic very soon in order to successfully address the problems faced by our nation. Many students in college do not seem to realize that their actions, or lack thereof, are a factor in whether or not our nation survives or collapses.

edit on 9/8/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9/8/2012 by PatrickGarrow17 because: (no reason given)

Very good point. While people are right to blame the government, there is plenty more blame for everyone else. Earlier generations allowed this to start happening, and we continue to let it happen. Basically this huge mess is everybody's fault. Most don't like to hear that though, the blame always belongs to someone else. Nobody wants to step up and take responsibility for this situation. Well it is getting to the point now where we all have to choice but to step up.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
reply to post by DarthOej

 

Of course, the problem is.....there is no viable 3rd option. That is what makes it scary. I agree with you in saying the 2 options I present at the end of the past page are not workable....but when nothing else exists, it has to be one of the two or a variation.

When I was with Occupy last fall, I'd asked an Economics Professor who was in camp doing a 'teach-in' on economics from the University of Illinois across the river about this. He was extolling the virtues of a socialist base system and how it was far superior to capitalism. Whatever we each feel on that subject, the point I brought up was asking what we do about the building debt owed to places like China, Japan and others. This was a tenured Professor of Economics, mind you.....and his answer?

'They'll just have to forgive it. They have no choice'. Said as causally as you could want.

These seem to be the Plan B solutions in the minds of those running the debt up into realms we literally cannot even visualize anymore. My first board describes a Trillion in many ways. It's now 16 Trillion for debt. It will be 21 Trillion in 2017 and 25 Trillion in 2022. How do we even make sense of those numbers?

We don't make sense of them. I believe the only thing keeping our current system on its feet is the fact that people are willfully ignoring them. When is somebody going to say, " where is the money?" Isn't that kinda what happened in 2008?


Maybe those two solutions are what has to happen, I don't know. Maybe it will be everyone's penance for the greed and stupidity that created this situation.

reply to post by DarthOej

You know, along the points your making...this is what I suspect is behind the push to audit the Federal Reserve and Fort Knox gold stocks. As I show in my Gold board, all the gold on Earth only comes to half the current National Debt in market value, so going to count the gold can't be the point. Not really. Auditing the Fed itself is interesting, but ultimately not productive as it's being described.

What it will do though is force the public to see and confront the reality of things in a way it can't be done any other way. Remember, ages ago, Ross Perot tried to do this same thing during a prime time broadcast with colorful charts and graphs and props. I think it was one of the lower viewed presentations he gave for his aborted run at the White House. People in general just have their minds blank out and go mushy when big big numbers start coming in.

However...if a major audit of the people running the whole thing comes up snake eyes, it's nothing anyone can argue in any meaningful way....let along ignore. So, perhaps what we're talking about is what the audit calls are actually trying to accomplish?

reply to post by Wrabbit2000



Wrabbit, just read your reply to Mickierocksman. laying out two options. Austerity, austerity, and more austerity, and if that don't work confiscate all the pensions. While this appears to work out well for those holding the debt. it would be a disaster for all but a very small few.

Austerity is not a way out. This will cripple the economy, and any productive activity would grind to a minimum. Tax revenues would plummet. I don't think I saw this mentioned, but a large part of the deficit is the result of fewer dollars in the system being paid as wages or income. and no taxes are paid. This is not only true because of unemployment, but this effect is also felt as more and more of the transfers of money with in the economy are being disguised as something other than income, and again no taxes are collected. Austerity only intensifies this problem. Talk about exponential. This will bring it on in the way of declining tax revenues. This would not even be beneficial to the debt holder in the way of return of money. It would however as is the case with Greece, allow for the confiscation of valuable assets. And this leads to your second proposal.

Just allow the debt holders to take the pensions and savings of the society. I can't think you are really serious in this option. The only thing sacred in this scenario is the debtors pledge to the debt holder. Under normal conditions this a pretty basic commitment. however through out the ages it has been realized that repayment is not always possible. and it is fairly common for this to be waived. Bankruptcy is the most common. But look up the old concept of Jubilee. This is really our best option.

Money is a strange thing. and it like God works in mysterious ways. The ones who manage the money system understand this and they know the risks. Let's just hope the more sensible ones hold the greatest sway, and not the class of hoodlums who have lately infiltrated and infected the "money changers".

The logistics of debt forgiveness would be a challenge, but I think it offers the best way forward. We need to reset the game and get those trend lines in you charts looking more horizontal

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


The Nixon Shock

was a series of economic measures taken by U.S. President Richard Nixon in 1971 including unilaterally cancelling the direct convertibility of the United States dollar to gold that essentially ended the existing Bretton Woods system of international financial exchange.

Definitely a game-changer...and it has some bearing on our present situation but it was an international impact that it mostly had and our $16 trillion national debt is not directly or indirectly caused by the Nixon Shock.

I think the EU and their collective efforts in the realm of economics is in part an attempt to ameliorate the effects of Nixon's decision...but I am not at all versed on European economics.

Even, though...with fiat currency dissociated from the gold standard would not cause a debt of such biblical proportions...printing money on demand should not be a problem even in that scenario if there is enough production and the right service to goods ratio. I don't think there is a fundamental problem there, either, but I have not looked into it extensively.

A deficit is always because of more being spent than income coming in.

Take a look at this table at Wikipedia, in particular looking at the growth rate in basically all the columns starting at the year 2000.

Now, keep in mind that up until that row, the data is given every ten years and then every year for the last ten starting in 2000. There is a graph on that same page, also seen here that shows just how dramatic the exponential growth in the debt really is.

It has nothing to do with parties, even, as that second graph shows...it is all in the math.

And even though compound interest is truly a monster that would scare Cthulhu....it just doesn't seem to follow that it has grown so much in recent years...it should be more of a gradual or predicted increase even with compounded interest.

This page shows a somewhat useful table for comparison. Notice how it increases in greater and greater amounts from year to year.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
What it will do though is force the public to see and confront the reality of things in a way it can't be done any other way. Remember, ages ago, Ross Perot tried to do this same thing during a prime time broadcast with colorful charts and graphs and props. I think it was one of the lower viewed presentations he gave for his aborted run at the White House. People in general just have their minds blank out and go mushy when big big numbers start coming in.

Yes, it turns my mind to mush, even, and that's not easy.

Your first sentence that I quoted is definitely an absolute necessity...and the people who are at the root of the causative problem know this...and deliberately obfuscate, imo, the truth of where the money is going.

As they say...follow the money...but the trail kind of peters out and we are all left scratching our heads.

The government spends a great deal of money that is never included on any budget data found anywhere...it is not really associated with the executive branch at all...it is buried in the ever growing mountains of laws found in the legislative branch.

When expenses come up during the fiscal year...that were not included in the budget for that year...and it happens, we all know...emergency repairs and such affect our household budgets...and so things also happen on the national level...things like natural disasters come to mind...there are too many possibilities to list...then the money to take care of those things must be appropriated through congress in the exact same way that bills become laws...appropriations are the laws made to make sure the money is available to pay for expenses not included once a year in the budget.

When war is declared, the money that is required to engage in war is above and beyond what is included in the defense budget year by year...we NEVER plan for war but war happens...and when it does, we have to find some funds...so the appropriation process begins. And since it is obviously not good politics or even common sense on any level to budget war into our plans each year...even ongoing wars are NEVER included in the budget. They are funded by appropriations but those appropriations must enacted in order to collect or generate the revenue that the law was approved to collect.

Give this page a quick look over while I try to see if I can gather some better links and sources.

I'm not wanting to make this political but it is...it might look like I'm derailing from the budget topic but please bear with me...I'm not at all.

A few links to bring it up to speed, listed chronologically:

May 2002 Supplemental
July 2002
October 2003
Fast forward to 2009

There is so much data available, in the years between, that I will leave any interested parties to their own search...it is basically a long series of supplemental appropriations put into legislation to fund the wars.

And it gets bigger and bigger as time goes on...and other things that would normally receive funding in this same way are thrown out or cast aside so that the whole thing doesn't get vetoed by the President.

And there is no way that anyone can agree not to support the troops that are there...so we can't cut that out...and the fear mentality that is finally fading from over our heads never had any complaint about defense appropriations...of course, not knowing the whole story and what we were NOT funding makes a big difference.

What this did, though, in congress, was effectively throw a wrench into all congressional legislative activities...the wheels are about to come to a complete stop because of it and we've heard hints of this.
Details here and here.

For anyone not aware, currently, the House has a Republican majority at 193-D & 242-R and the Senate is Democrat majority...but just barely at 51-D, 47-R.. The House is more labile in that Representatives are elected every 2 years and the Senate is every 6...therefore is in effect holding a longer period of influence than the Executive office although most Presidents serve 8 year which then negates that.
There are 435 seats in the House and 50 in the Senate and one chair = one vote.

All legislation must first pass the House vote and then the Senate vote. A lot of bills go through the House but not the Senate. The premise being, I think that the Senators are ideally a more mature and experienced group overall...as designed by the Constitution. How that is actually working, I don't know...right now nothing is working so who can say?

One more thing and I'll get lost for a while...you guys are probably sick of my long posts....the idea of budget caps is a good one but it isn't going to work if there are exclusions:

In addition, the Budget Control Act of 2011 (P.L. 112-25) instituted statutory caps on discretionary appropriations for each of the fiscal years 2012 through 2021. (By contrast, in most recent years the total amount of annual appropriations—except for those designated as emergency requirements—was governed by annual funding allocations agreed to by the House of Representatives and the Senate but not enacted into law.) The new caps do not constrain spending for the war in Afghanistan or similar activities or for designated emergencies; however, if implemented as written in the act, the caps would keep other appropriations for 2012 and 2013 below the amounts provided for 2011 and would limit the growth of those appropriations to about 2 percent a year from 2014 to 2021. Compared with allowing nonwar discretionary appropriations to grow at the rate of inflation, the capped amount of discretionary budget authority would be about 4 percent lower in 2012 and 9 percent lower in 2021; as a result, budget deficits would be reduced by $778 billion between 2012 and 2021, CBO estimates (not counting the savings in interest payments resulting from lower outlays).

That is from a previous link at the CBO.

The new caps do not constrain spending for the war in Afghanistan

I guess the only way to end a war is to WANT to end it...and by including an amendment in the appropriations for same. There was an effort to change one paragraph in the latest bill for war spending in Afghanistan, to end it by next year....and it fell flat...it did not even make it to the voting process. The law that it would amend, already passed, stated there were still real threats and the war must go on...and the amendment suggested otherwise.

I just posted that info in another thread so if I find it, I'll link to it.

Bottom line:
We have to end the war and as soon as possible. The longer we wait, the bigger our monster grows...there is no more threat other than the one we are creating by overstaying our welcome...which we never had in the first place anyway.
No more Osama...why the war?
Al Qaeda was Osama...there is no denying that, given the inside history behind all this..but tanks and guns and all that is big income for the top 10 contractors of the US Government which are ALL without exception defense related. If the war ends, so does the huge inflow of profit that those few are enjoying. And they have their guys up on Capital Hill even more than probably some of the actual congresspeople are there...THEY are the influence behind this fiasco...they are the ones profiting of our collective decline into the pit of despair and poverty.

You know...WAR PIGS.

I've been debating whether to do this since the replies started and I began seeing how seriously some folks are looking at the boards I created. In that sense, the sourcing supplied really isn't helping people build on what I made. As much as this is kinda showing how sausage is made and ruining the magic of my creations....well, this thread was never about stars, flags or praise for the effort. The topic is just too serious for those petty things. It's literally the future of our nation. So, with that in mind, let me just give everyone the sources I used as well as those I merely referenced while making this. Everyone is welcome to dig in at 90 degrees, or whatever depth each feels good with.

Official Sourcing (Cited and used literally)

Board 1: What is a Trillion
(Various that were not recorded)
Hoover Dam Construction

Board 2: Speaking of Gold
USGS Gold Data
USGS Silver Data
Silver Statistics
Gold Reserve Summaries
Gold in the World

Board 3: Compound Interest
Compound Interest Calculator

Board 4: US Debt and Budget Deficit
US GPO Budget and Presidential Materials
Main Federal Budget - Historic Tables Fiscal Year 2013
CRS - The Debt Limit: History and Recent Increases
Party Division in the Senate 1789-Present
Party Division of the House 1789-Present
Party in Power 1945-2010

Board 5: Snap and Social Security
Main Federal Budget - Historic Tables Fiscal Year 2013

Board 6: Medical by the Numbers
US 2010 Census - Health
American Hospital Association - Fast Facts

Board 7: The Reality of Taxes and Revenue
CBO - Distribution of Household Income and Federal Taxes 2008-2009
NTU - Individual Tax Rates - Low to High / 1913-Present

Board 8: What Defense Costs
CBO - Costs of Major US Wars
GAO - Cost of the US Invasion of Panama
Timeline of US Wars and Conflicts

Board 9: Unemployment Basics
Overall Federal Unemployment Rate (Click dinosaur on right column under rate to view previous years by month)
Econom ic Assumptions on Federal Budget Projections
State Unemployment w/ Alternative Measure shown
Unemployment for Metro Areas

That concludes the official sources I cited specifically. Now, as I mentioned to some, there are 6 more boards in partial stages of completion. Some went into areas covered here deeper and a couple were new areas entirely. The next post I'm giving everyone the tools, sources and general references I either used but didn't cite for the first 10 boards...or have been using in creation of the others. If it isn't made and posted here already, anyone feel free to make your own without worrying on what I hadn't finished yet. I may or may not complete the others.....and would love to see what others may come up with.

now i know why most Americans ignore this its worse then a horror movie.Its got the point where we hear things like Obamas budget he submitted only being a trillion dollars over .But 50 years ago there woukld have been no way an economy could handle 1 trillion deficits it would have collapsed.Now its the new norm my god were so screwed.

reply to post by queenannie38


Well if you look the house is passing bills all the time then they go to the senate and sit on Harry Reids desk.He single handedly has blocked more bills then any Senate majority leader in history.He has effectively shut down the government for years now.As long as hes in control of the senate doesnt matter who we elect president nothing will happen.

Here are the general references, tools or data sources I didn't use directly...or simply weren't used in the boards posted here.

General Multi-Board references:

Main Federal Budget for Fiscal Year 2013, Historic tables included - White House

Assump tions and Summary charts for 2013 White House budget

National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia (Tables show M- Circulation numbers and Credit issuance by nation -global- w/ card type used)

Definition of Terms for Major Market Indicators

Obama Stimulus Chart and Where Money Went by Department and Type

Top and Bottom 10 states by Tax Burden

The worst Hyperinflation Examples of All Time

Interactive Display of the entire Federal Budget / receipts and outlays

Historic Market Charts of All Kinds

US Inflation Rate 1914-Present

All Instances of US Forces used Abroad 1798 - 2004

BLS - How Unemployment is measured

Corporate Tax Rates - 1909-2002

Money Supply

Global Money Supply and the Value of Gold

The last 10 years of Money Supply in charts

Federal Reserve Bank H.1 - Factors Affecting Reserve Balances

Federal Reserve Bank H.6 - Money Stock Measures

Federal Reserve Bank / St Louis - Tables of Historical U.S. Currency and Aggregates Data

Federal Reserve Bank / St Louis - Adjusted Monetary Base

M-1 / M-2 Monetary Base Chart 1970 - Present (interactive)

Monetary Base and Money Supply Historic & Present

Tools

Calculate the Duration between any 2 dates
Compound Interest Calculator
Scientific Calculator (Because a trillion is a REALLY BIG number)

I hope this all helps for those who want to go deeper than the graphics boards I created and thread which followed. With the last two pages of links and what those sites contain across their pages is the entirety of what was used or referenced to make my Guide to the Federal Budget.

reply to post by dragonridr


Well...we can't really blame him either...he has no control over the vote in the Senate and his vote is only worth one the same as everyone else's.

Things don't get stuck so much in the Senate because not much ever even makes it that far. Most stuck in committee.

What Harry says here is true from what I've learned, too.

"The unemployment rate is falling as we saw the thirtieth straight month of private sector job growth, with the economy adding nearly one hundred thousand new jobs. While our recovery is still moving too slowly for many Americans, job growth would likely have been even stronger if Republicans had not blocked Democratic efforts to hire more teachers, firefighters and police officers.

"At the end of the day, too many people in Nevada and across America are still struggling to get by. The best way to speed up our recovery is for Republicans to stop their knee-jerk obstruction of every effort Democrats put forward, and start working across the aisle to find common ground. Next week, the Senate will vote to give employers incentives to hire veterans, so our heroes are not left out in the cold when they return home. This is a common-sense jobs bill, and I hope Republicans will join Democrats in supporting it.

"The Republican leader said his single most important goal was defeating President Obama. To speed up our recovery, it's time for Republicans to put politics aside, and join Democrats to make the middle class their top priority."

So I'm not saying he doesn't have a part in it, but we can't blame him. All he can do is schedule and manage the stuff that does make it to the Senate...but votes are still one to a chair.

And a lot of things get tabled in other ways, such as going to committee....it is the Speaker of the House who makes these decisions...that is, everything has to cross his desk to make it to the House vote then the Senate.
The Speaker right now is John Boehner. Name sound familiar? It should even if simply because he's a fixture...been there since 1991.

IF a bill gets stuck in committee...it cannot be rescued, if it hasn't been voted on, except by another act that requires majority house vote which is 218. There are 193 Democrats and 242 Republicans in the House.

FOR EXAMPLE...this bill was introduced in Feb of last year by the one person who voted AGAINST the war in Iraq...this bill calls for funds in the Afghanistan war to ONLY be spent on pulling out of there.
It immediately got scheduled for not one but two committees...and hasn't moved since then.
That was John Boehner's decision...every bill's route is HIS decision. He gets them all first before even the printing office.

I did a sample search on 'armed services' related bills...out of 347 introduced in the House, 14 made it out of committee and 6 made it to the Senate.

The appropriations bill for 2011 for the War in Afghanistan made it through to being a law in a scorching 7 months or so...that is practically light speed in that context.

I don't see how you can fix debt this bad..All sounds likea bunch of big words to me when people come up with solutions to fix it.I cannot understand how people do not know this kind of debt may lead to a major disaster economically and who knows what else.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Great Thread Wrabbit !


Lots of meat, to digest. We can see how bloated it all is.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Just a brief &, maybe, amusing anecdote, but while looking through the "New Topic" list I saw your thread and initially thought it read, "A Con Man's Guide to the Federal Budget."

Originally posted by Kovenov
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Just a brief &, maybe, amusing anecdote, but while looking through the "New Topic" list I saw your thread and initially thought it read, "A Con Man's Guide to the Federal Budget."

As amazingly informative as Wrabbit's thread is...that one might be even more so!