What the Heck did Jesus Mean?

What did Jesus mean in this cryptic statement about Heaven being under attack?

Matthew 11
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

What does Jesus mean? How can the Kingdom of Heaven, isn't that where God lives(?), be taken by force? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Was Jesus sad, scared or upset about this?

(I read a book called "Storming Heaven" which was about the '___' experience. This statement of Jesus' reminds me of that analogy. But, I don't think that Jesus was talking about the '___' experience of the 1960-70's! )

Why does Jesus claim this happened from the "Days of John the Baptist?" That's short time period. Was Heaven under attack because John the Baptist, who was apparently Elias (Elijah), left to come to Earth?

What the heck did Jesus mean? What was he talking about? Is Heaven still under attack to this day?

reply to post by windword

What does Jesus mean? How can the Kingdom of Heaven, isn't that where God lives(?),be taken by force? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

God lives within... and "selfishness" battles against him... so to speak

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Was Jesus sad, scared or upset about this?

I would say impartial...

Does it not say "the kingdom of heaven is at hand"?

So technically it is always under attack... always has been, always will be...

good question! most christians don't really understand what the jews of the time really thought!
jesus thought the kingdom of heaven was here on earth,and he witnessed what the romans did.
'the kingdom of heaven was here on earth,under attack!
excellent book about Jesus by Micheal Grant. really good book!
the man has credentials!

peace

reply to post by Akragon


Good points there, and I tend to agree. But, why the message about from the "time of John the Bapist? How does he fit in to our personal struggle with finding heaven within?


reply to post by reficul


It does seem as if this passage refers to a physical war on this physical planet, for a Kingdom of Heaven on Earth.

reply to post by windword

But, why the message about from the "time of John the Bapist? How does he fit in to our personal struggle with finding heaven within?

I think he was just ranting about the people of that time... They had the son of God with them in the flesh, yet they didn't see it... He said PEACE is the best way... but the world said Violence is better...

John was the reincarnation of Elias (imho) which was told of in scripture...

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.



Then he speaks of these people....

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,

17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.

Basically saying "here i am, why don't you listen"?!?!

That entire chapter is pretty much about Jesus ripping on people that don't understand what he was teaching...

reply to post by Akragon


Yes, certainly an angry rant. He says something to the effect that Sodom and Gomorrah will look like a piece of cake compared to XY and Z!

reply to post by windword


but his message was simple... Notice at the end of the chapter...


28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.



It seems to me hes saying the people of his time reject his message...

So how do we trust his followers words, especially those who did not know him... like paul.

reply to post by Akragon


It is a lovely sentiment there at the end.

But, there are a lot of mixed messages in the chapter as a whole. First, the Kingdom of Heaven is under violent attack. Even if we are to take that to mean our inner kingdom of heaven, the outer world is violent and the some of people in those cities are merely victims. The woes of war are very real.

Jesus seems bitter about the treatment of John the Baptist as he then goes on to condemn those that live in certain cities, promising wrath and fire and brimstone the likes that has never been seen, because they failed to understand his message.

Then he goes on to say "My yoke is easy." Not so easy for everybody to understand though.

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

Now here, I just noticed, in the verse just before the one about heaven being under attack, he refers to the "kingdom of Heaven" again, in regards to how great those dwelling in the kingdom are. This gives this "Kingdom" a more real affect that a personal, inner kingdom.

It must have been important to qualify the importance of the greatness of those dwelling in the "Kingdom of Heaven," as opposed t those born of women. We are all born of women, so I would guess that these individuals that he is referring to are spiritual beings and not mortals.

reply to post by windword


Notice the verses in the before the ones i quoted ...

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Not everyone is meant to understand my friend... One of the few things i've actually learned on ATS

Now here, I just noticed, in the verse just before the one about heaven being under attack, he refers to the "kingdom of Heaven" again, in regards to how great those dwelling in the kingdom are. This gives this "Kingdom" a more real affect that a personal, inner kingdom.

It must have been important to qualify the importance of the greatness of those dwelling in the "Kingdom of Heaven," as opposed t those born of women. We are all born of women, so I would guess that these individuals that he is referring to are spiritual beings and not mortals.

Are we not "spiritual beings"?

Originally posted by windword
What did Jesus mean in this cryptic statement about Heaven being under attack?

Matthew 11
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

What does Jesus mean? How can the Kingdom of Heaven, isn't that where God lives(?), be taken by force? Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Was Jesus sad, scared or upset about this?

Why does Jesus claim this happened from the "Days of John the Baptist?" That's short time period. Was Heaven under attack because John the Baptist, who was apparently Elias (Elijah), left to come to Earth?

What the heck did Jesus mean? What was he talking about? Is Heaven still under attack to this day?

Couple of things:

1) Don't confuse "The Kingdom of Heaven" with heaven itself. Matthew often uses this phrase, and in fact, often uses the word 'heaven' to refer to God. He does this because, being a Jew, the name of Yahweh is sacred, and not to be spoken. So what he's referring to here isn't the physical place of heaven, but the Kingdom that belongs to God.

2) The reference to "John the Baptist... Elijah, who was to come", refers back to the book of Malachi, whose closing chapters talk about one who was to come and "prepare the way for the LORD". It doesn't mean that John the Baptist was literally Elijah; what it does mean is that John the Baptist was one who came in "the spirit of Elijah"; meaning, the relationship between Elijah and Elisha, who came after him, is a type of the relationship between John the Baptist and Christ. Specifically, John the Baptist called people to repentance, but Christ was the one who offered redemption and saw the fruit of that labour (Christ Himself being the "Firstfruits from among the dead"). Likewise Elijah preached repentance to Israel, but it was Elisha whose ministry saw rebirth.

Now... regarding "the Kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force"...
Jesus is referring not to a future reality, but to something very concrete and present in His own experience. He was clearly aware of the manner in which he was to die (and in fact, taught His disciples on this point at least 7 times prior to His crucifixion), and knew that His own death would be a violent one. Likewise Jesus was taken in violence, "led like a lamb to the slaughter", and died a violent death at the hands of others, as prophesied hundreds of years earlier (Isaiah 53, Psalm 22).

Was Jesus afraid?
I have no doubt whatsoever that He was. Jesus knew that His death would involve not mere physical pain, but the spiritual agony of taking upon Himself the sin of the whole world, and the punishment due for that sin, at the hands of God the Father. This is why, on the cross, He cried out "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?". This isn't hyperbole, this isn't some allegory. Jesus didn't just FEEL forsaken, He WAS forsaken. A popular song ("How Deep the Father's Love for us") has the lines, "how great the pain of searing loss / the Father turns His face away / as wounds which mar the chosen One bring many sons to glory". This is what Christ had to bear in order to reconcile fallen man with a Holy God.

reply to post by windword


Apart from a linguistic analysis from the root meaning of each word, you will not get the meaning. Here is the true meaning. The Seven Rules of Hillel must be employed to know the answer. You can find the rules on google or by searching my username.

'And From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.'

-And - Moreover. The first order of business to find meaning is to develop a context around the verse. Saying 'And' creates a reflecting point joining what came before and possibly what comes after. Here is the context.

7 As John’s disciples were leaving, Jesus began to speak to the crowd about John: “What did you go out into the wilderness to see? A reed swayed by the wind? 8 If not, what did you go out to see? A man dressed in fine clothes? No, those who wear fine clothes are in kings’ palaces. 9 Then what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. 10 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,[d] and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

-from - Separation of one thing from another. Any kind of separation of one thing from another by which the union or fellowship of the two is destroyed. What is the fellowship of two? Male and Female. Sperm and Egg. Man and Wife. Soul and Spirit.

-the days - "the day" is regarded as the time for abstaining from indulgence, vice, crime, because acts of the sort are perpetrated at night and in darkness.

-John - 1) John the Baptist was the son of Zacharias and Elisabeth, the forerunner of Christ. By order of Herod Antipas he was cast into prison and afterwards beheaded.

2) John the apostle, the writer of the Fourth Gospel, son of Zebedee and Salome, brother of James the elder. He is that disciple who (without mention by name) is spoken of in the Fourth Gospel as especially dear to Jesus and according to the traditional opinion is the author of the book of Revelation.

-The baptizer - one who administers the rite of baptism. To get this, read 1 Kings 17. John is Elijah as Jesus points out in the verse set above.

-Until Now - Not until this moment in time.

-the Kingdom - royal power, kingship, dominion, rule. a) not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom.

At this point, we have the main thesis of the matter. Until this point, we have had the Angel of Light and the Angel of Darkness in balance. Read this thread for more. LINK. The Lord that rules the Earth is Satan. Jesus is taking that throne away by inheritance. Keep reading to see more.

- of Heaven - 1) the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it.

a) the universe, the world.

b) the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced.

c) the sidereal or starry heavens.

2) the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings.

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS NEXT POINT!

Where are you and who are you? You are a child of God. You are in an image created as an artificial story and learning environment. When you look in a mirror, are you the image or what creates the image? The image is not you. You are somewhere else.

Genesis 1:27 - So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

You are in heaven, yet your consciousness is behind the veil of the temple you reside inside now.

-Suffer Violence - to force, inflict violence on.

-the violent take - to seize on, claim for one's self eagerly. This is the most important point. The thieves take what is not theirs. Who are they? Experts in the Law. Builders (Masons), Moneychangers (Bankers) and High Priests. They are the fallen beings from Enoch I and from Jude 1 and from Genesis 6.

-They take IT by force. IT is authority. Who does the authority belong to? THE LORD. Satan took what was meant for Christ. This was man's choice in the Garden in Genesis 3. The fruit of knowledge is technology. The mark of the Beast is Carbon (6 protons, 6 electrons and 6 neutrons).

How will this end? THE DAY OF THE LORD. 1000 years more.

To get this in full, read the links in my signature link. Especially, pay attention to the article on Water Baptism and John the Baptist.

Matthew 3 tells what happens to the Experts. They are denied the thing that puts out the fire. Water is for the believer and the thief that repents. Fire is reserved for those who do not repent. The coming violence is for the ones that meet with the fire. The blood cries out. Go back and read my posts from yesterday and today to know for sure.

Start with this one: LINK

reply to post by Awen24


If Jesus knew his fate, and the violence he was referring to was, in fact, his own fate, and as you point out, many believe that Jesus' death was propheciezed, why does he say the the prophecies of the Old Testament end with John the Baptist and not with him and his death and resurrection?

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

reply to post by Akragon

Are we not "spiritual beings"?

Indeed!

Well said.

reply to post by windword


If you read my last post, consider this video. Do the producers in Hollywood know the story I tell? Jacob is the one in white. Esau is the one in black, although he was never named. Consider this post in another thread.

LINK

Originally posted by windword
What did Jesus mean in this cryptic statement about Heaven being under attack?

Matthew 11
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The kingdom of heaven, Jesus' ministry on earth, was under attack, would continue to be, and violence would overwhelm it (Christ's death on the cross.)

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Prior to John, the teaching was always about the old covenant and the future -- John was teaching about the new covenant (Christ) in the present.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

"Elias" is actually Elijah, and this is a reference to:

See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (Malachi 4:5 NIV)

But is he actually Elijah? No, he directly denied it. So how do we reconcile these statements? The answer is in Luke, when John's father is being told who his unborn son will be:

And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Luke 1:17 NIV)

In other words, he wasn't Elijah himself, but he was playing the same role, in the same manner, and with the same backing as Elijah, but in his time.

Hope that helps.

reply to post by EnochWasRight


Dude,

I don't know if you deliberately drown my questions in an esoteric maze of circular theory, but my eyes glaze over and I just give up trying to follow the logic of your posts.

I'm sure that you have a following of people who like to delve deep in the ocean of esoteric meaning and symbolism, but I just can't believe that it has to be that complicated to understand the meaning of the teachings of Jesus.

If Jesus explained things the way you do, I can see why his message would be misunderstood. He would be, understandably, frustrated. But unlike your message, Jesus said that children could understand his message.

reply to post by adjensen

But is he actually Elijah? No, he directly denied it.

Do you not believe Jesus would know better then john?

Yes perhaps john denied being Elijah... but have you considered the possiblity that he did not know who he was in a previous life just like 99% of the people in the world?

Jesus said specifically he was Elijah... He didn't say he was "in the spirit of Elijah"... He said he IS elijah...

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

14 And if ye will receive it, this IS Elias, which was for to come.

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by adjensen

 

But is he actually Elijah? No, he directly denied it.

Do you not believe Jesus would know better then john?

Yes perhaps john denied being Elijah... but have you considered the possiblity that he did not know who he was in a previous life just like 99% of the people in the world?

And have you considered the possibility that reincarnation is an Eastern concept, not a Jewish one? Wait, yes, you have, because I call you on it repeatedly, but you've never been able to demonstrate instances in the Bible to support your belief.

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Bearing in mind that reincarnation was an unknown (or at least alien) concept to the Jews, we can determine that Jesus isn't saying that it's Elijah, reincarnated, because he'd have to very carefully explain that, and he doesn't. He just says "if it's okay with you guys, John is the one prophesied in Malachi."

That is a very clear explanation, which supports the angel's declaration in Luke 1, John's denial of being Elijah, and the fact that, during the transfiguration, two of John's former disciples saw Elijah face to face and didn't say "Hey! It's John, nice to see your head back on!"

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by windword
What did Jesus mean in this cryptic statement about Heaven being under attack?

Matthew 11
12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.

The kingdom of heaven, Jesus' ministry on earth, was under attack, would continue to be, and violence would overwhelm it (Christ's death on the cross.)

So you believe that when Jesus referred to the "Kingdom of Heaven" he was referring to his ministry, here on Earth, during his lifetime. Therefore, in your opinion, the violence he spoke of was actual human violence, fighting against his ministry, not an actual heavenly war between angels and demons. The violence he spoke of is the same violence humanity has always known, and not a supernatural force, just human lust for power and greed for all things material.

An actual heavenly war, where heaven is under siege would imply, to me anyway, that ET's are at war over territory that includes the earth. It would also imply that Jesus had come seeking our assistance in this war, and his ministry represents a spiritual warfare training/recruitment. It makes me think of the "Salvation Army." At the very least, it would imply that "God" is vulnerable.

13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Prior to John, the teaching was always about the old covenant and the future -- John was teaching about the new covenant (Christ) in the present.

Aren't there apocoplyptic prophecies in the Old Testament, that go beyond the time of John the Baptist? Also, do Old Testament prophets talk about an end of one covenant and the beginning of another? I know that the Hebrews had messiah prophecies, and Cyrus fulfills at least one of the messiahs' prophecies, but there is no mention of any new covenant through the prophecies and fulfillment of the coming of Cyrus. How is this "new covenant" described in the Old Testament?

14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

"Elias" is actually Elijah, and this is a reference to:

See, I will send you the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. (Malachi 4:5 NIV)

But is he actually Elijah? No, he directly denied it. So how do we reconcile these statements? The answer is in Luke, when John's father is being told who his unborn son will be:

And he will go on before the Lord, in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous--to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. (Luke 1:17 NIV)

In other words, he wasn't Elijah himself, but he was playing the same role, in the same manner, and with the same backing as Elijah, but in his time.

And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Maybe not, but whoever the "John the Baptist" was, he was a previously enlighten soul, who was incarnated, if not reincarnated, with knowledge of his mission and the ability to carry it out. He wasn't born a blank slate.

Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

Reincarnation was on the minds of at least some, which is evidenced here:

Luke 9
18 And it came to pass, as he was alone praying, his disciples were with him: and he asked them, saying, Whom say the people that I am?

19 They answering said, John the Baptist; but some say, Elias; and others say, that one of the old prophets is risen again.

Hope that helps.

reply to post by adjensen

And have you considered the possibility that reincarnation is an Eastern concept, not a Jewish one?

Not according to Josephus.

[The Pharisees] believe that souls have an immortal vigour in them [and that the virtuous] shall have power to revive and live again: on account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people.
Antiquity of the Jews, Book i8, Chap. 1, No.3
[From an address of Josephus to some Jewish soldiers who desired to kill themselves rather than be captured by the Romans:]

The bodies of all men are, indeed mortal, and are created out of corruptible matter; but the soul is ever immortal, and is a portion of the divinity that inhabits our bodies. . . . Do ye not remember that all pure Spirits when they depart out of this life obtain a most holy place in heaven, from whence, in the revolutions of ages, they are again sent into pure bodies; while the souls of those who have committed self-destruction are doomed to a region in the darkness of Hades.
Jewish War, Book 3, Chap. 8, No. 5

Flavius Josephus (A.D. 37-100)

Also, it appears the Jewish philospher Philo Judeus also beleived in reincarnation:

The air is full of souls; those who are nearest to earth descending to be tied to mortal bodies return to other bodies, desiring to live in them.
De Somniis
The company of disembodied souls is distributed in various orders. The law of some of them is to enter mortal bodies and after certain prescribed periods be again set free. But those possessed of a diviner structure are absolved from all local bonds of earth. Some of these souls choose confinement in mortal bodies because they are earthly and corporeally inclined...


All such as are wise, like Moses, are living abroad from home. For the souls of such formerly chose this expatriation from heaven, and through curiosity and the desire of acquiring knowledge they came to dwell abroad in earthly nature, and while they dwell in the body they look down on things visible and mortal around them, and urge their way thitherward again whence they came originally: and call that heavenly region ... their citizenship, fatherland, but this earthly region in which they live, foreign.

christianreincarnation.blogspot.com...