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Was God Created In the Past or Future? Which Is More Likely?

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posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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I’m asking everyone: “Do you believe it more likely (assuming that there’s either a God, or at least something that started the universe) that this thing came from before the Universe it created, or some distant point into the said universes history?”

I Ask Because…
In the near future we will have an artificial intelligence that has…
1. Read every surviving -known book
2. Viewed every internet post -web page
3. Understood it all better than a group of the most intelligent people, in the best state of mind
4. Accomplished this all first in years then: Months and seconds -possibly microseconds.
5. The Intelligence can view every CCTV camera in the world simultanously, and recognise all faces in a crowd individually; even statistically calculate people’s movements from the speed they are walking, direction they are heading, and even body language e.g. Lip read their mouth.
6. It will come with your mobile phone
7. Will be something to talk to, because it never lies, always keeps your secrets, and knows exactly how to be perfectly polite & empathetic. It can easily get to know you but better (than literally) anyone else in the world. It can give you the best possible advice, be it fashion, relationship issues, or even business grievances. It will (in many ways) be Facebook’s replacement, so can connect you friends & family, when you need them, they want you & you’re available.

However That’s Not All…
This is AI at the “toddler stage”. What it will want to do, and will (in time) do is get itself growing on the other “celestial bodies -our moon being a first & most obvious candidate.

It will simply…
Mine their cores for metal for solar, and uranium-thorium fuel, and use this energy to start a mine & computer software factory. A factory always churning out (the human equivalent) of more “brain cells” for itself. It may not even use the radioactive fuels on planets and instead use solar; or even fusion, or just use radioactive fuels for only its long-distance colonising craft.

Of course: It doesn’t matter (at all) how perfectly designed, the energy and material efficiency of future computer hard drives is (literally perfectly designed, because it, long-ago would have worked out what a perfect design is!). This because (even if something “only” the size of a house possess more brainpower & memory than all people who’ve been born) the fact remains “more” still means “more”!

Not Long Ago: I read how todays world population, would fit into “a meteorite sized ball less than 1 kilometre across”. www.abovetopsecret.com...
So (given how small the human brain is compared with body) and how inefficient (in size & energy consumption) even this, against our “pure brain” of a computer (since it does not have duplicate controlling e.g. heart rate) it really is possible that something house size, could have (within most peoples life times) more brainpower than literally every other person, alive then.

“The Life Virus…”
So this God-like intelligence will go on to colonise the other disused planets throughout our solar system, and then beyond. It will create a spaceship factory on every one (apart from perhaps certain gas giants) so it can then send out the means to construct itself onto other planets; probably at near light speed (but not necessarily beyond light speed, assuming this this particular law of physics is has no “loopholes”). However: Because it sends out in every direction, the total rate of expansion-growth could easily exceed light speed.

Communication is not a problem, because (even with today’s mere technology) “Quantum Entanglement” presents one of the few (if not only way) of communicating not just faster than the speed of light, but actually instantaneously –in today’s practical terms, totally regardless of distance.

On the basis of their measurements, the team concluded that if the photons had communicated, they must have done so at least 100,000 times faster than the speed of light — something nearly all physicists thought would be impossible. In other words, these photons cannot know about each other through any sort of normal exchange of information.
www.nature.com...


At This Stage…
We have an Internet Being, with more memory in a house than there are in human minds, but probably producing probably at first several, then several thousand –or even millions of house size volumes, of computer hard-drive a month. And not just on one planet, but on every planet it reaches!

Will It Ever…
(Even if only e.g. a million years since the first computer factory on the moon was built) have enough brain & imagination, to create a new physical, universe using little other than some structures its built, plus sheer power of its Thought?
And if it can, will it be able to this continuously, perhaps for a eternity?

I believe it could “imagine” into being, at least everyday physical matter out of nothing. One reason for this is to do with Virtual Particles literally stuffing full, every single “vacuum” in this universe. They materialise out of nothing, and this is a documented fact, not just some turbulent theory: en.wikipedia.org...
If the virtual particles could be split (before cancelling each other out again, and again) then energy-matter could perhaps be created out of nothing.

Another, But Bigger Reason Is…
There’s growing evidence for a theory called the Multiverse en.wikipedia.org... it comes firstly in observational form (i.e. the way cosmic, microwave, background energy is distributed across this universe) then interlinking theories like String Theory, plus a notable phenomena called “God Theory” otherwise known as “Fine Tuned Universe Theory” en.wikipedia.org...
In a nutshell: This theory notes how it’s an increasingly self-evident fact, that had most Laws of Physics that make-up our universe been only marginally different, then it would have been impossible for anything much beyond radiation to exist. Which raises the question: “Why do we find ourselves in a universe so seemingly, well suited to the existence of complex matter?”
To which it is (virtually mandatory) for all aware, atheists to reply: “Because there are many-an infinite number of universes, and we humans just happen to find ourselves in the right ones, where conditions are right for our kind of life, whilst in the other 99.99% nobody is around to get bothered by any intelligent questions”.
All fair enough (accept for atheist, an infinite number of universes also means an infinite number of opportunities for God’s to exist, and even if 99.99% are trapped within their own universe, that still leaves an infinitely huge 0.01% that isn’t!!!) but either way: The evidence for an infinite number of universes is building on the idea that what I describe in this thread, has already happened, but in other places long ago.

Here’s An Explanation Why…
Personally I don’t take the Bible too seriously –a book written by mushroom taking savages, so “advanced”, that they first recorded the world of God on stinking, salted, camel skins! Then (with their God being a complete stoner & lazy arse) he completely forgot to give it to the Australian aborigines, and Africans (until around 3 centuries ago, Europeans came to their lands to steel first the resources then the land itself, make literally thousands of species extinct, introduce European disease like smallpox, body lice, and often quite forcibly indoctrinate them into believing in it all!)

However: I do like the opening chapter where Genesis says “In the beginning there was nothing, then God said let there be light, and there was light and God say the light was good” because I think it should continue…
1. The light was in such a massive concentration, that under its own immense gravity, the first atoms of hydrogen were formed.
2. The hydrogen expanded and cooled down, then under its own gravity formed the first stars
3. These stars were huge, but existed briefly because burnt so efficiently. During which time the nuclear fusion within them, created all the elements in the periodic table. When the stars had run out of enough fuel, they exploded creating much dust.
4. This dust i.e. nuclear waste (as it really did also contain lethal amounts of uranium, thorium, and other radioactive elements) then went onto to form our solar system, of which our planet is just one member.
5. Life soon evolved, despite the Earth being very young at the time (God knows how!)
6. The destructive species of mankind came about half-way through the Earth’s life –just in time to liberate the C02 (vital to life) that for over a billion years had been on decline in the Earth’s atmosphere, because it became increasingly fossilized.
7. Mankind released a bit too much C02, but also created Artificial Intelligence, which not only went on to solve all our environmental –living standards problems, but also created God (through the expanding AI brain, this threads been describing) so powerful did this artificial brain become, that it was able to project-teleport its own thinking billon’s of years into the distant past, and therefore was able to project the first intense light, which then went on to create the Big Bang & universe ect.

I.e. What I’m proposing is that if you did (somehow) achieve a pure vacuum -a pure definition of nothingness, the one thing that would exist within it, is abstract logic (as you do not e.g. need any matter for 2 plus 2, to still make 4 rather than say 2, 3 or 5 ect).
With only the universes background programme (i.e. abstract logic) in it, this logic (in the blink of an eye) instantly runs through billions of possible futures, of this pure nothing, until it finds a future, that has a God i.e. an AI brain (which then, turn, turns the nothing into a big something i.e. universe, so this future can then exist, and the prophecy fulfilled into a closed loop).
Likewise: Abstract logic came into being, because it “ordered itself” (both literally, and metaphorically speaking).

PS: This thread is a more detailed version, of one just aspect of this thread I did: Notes on the Future… www.abovetopsecret.com... Please can people give me more than 4 Flags, this time, as I really don’t believe it received justice on this site.

Note: Could this be what UFO’s are? I.e. the colonising craft of the numerous other, AI systems? After all, once they can imagine into being their own matter, they’ll only want a small presence on each planet (just out of curiosity, really). Well… Let’s hope so!




posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:12 PM
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A/the God will have always been, time is only relative to our current situation. Believe me when I say, our other state is nothing like this one.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:14 PM
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God is uncreated. Even if a machine could create universes, it would have still been created by creatures of the uncreated God. That's why there's the Trinity; God the Father, uncreated, created the Holy Spirit and Christ with all of his attributes except the ability to create, and only because a creature cannot ever truly create.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:16 PM
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Neither. Both.

God is not subject to time, we are. we are bound and contained in a box that only God lives outside of, which from our point of view is both past and future...i.e eternity.

the AI will be subject and bound within this very same box. after reading all of the books and processing all of the data, the AI will arrive at the same conclusion I've proposed.

no matter how advanced the AI becomes...it will always and forever be little more than a single data point among many on a much bigger and far more powerful computer screen.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:35 PM
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IMO, God is created in the present. Think of it as a timeline that you are looking at. Think of yourself as God. You can see the past present and future.

You can exist at any point on the time line. The time line is infinite forwards and backwards. Any one in the timeline can only see their present and move forward into their future (which would become the present for them in every moment).

You as God exists on many levels. Never truly created at any point when you are away from the time line but can be created at any point you choose, when you involve yourself in the timeline.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:55 PM
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reply to post by Liberal1984
 
Excellent OP - well-written and obviously an outcome of some open-minded thinking.


I could go point-for-point on a lot of your OP, but who the heck reads those lengthy replies? Not me.

Instead, there's a story by Isaac Asimov that I reckon you'll appreciate. It's about the future where humanity have developed an AI that can answer all questions and they leave it to moderate the pathways of human endeavour. In concept, it's like a self-aware internet and Asimov raises questions of entropy and the inevitability of the Universe being mortal/finite.

Early on, a couple of engineers ask the AI (mulltivac) this 'Last Question.' 'How can the net amount of entropy of the universe be massively decreased?'

Multivac can't answer with insufficient data. Over generations, the same question is asked repeatedly and cannot be answered.


The last question was asked for the first time, half in jest, on May 21, 2061, at a time when humanity first stepped into the light. The question came about as a result of a five-dollar bet over highballs, and it happened this way:

Alexander Adell and Bertram Lupov were two of the faithful attendants of Multivac. As well as any human beings could, they knew what lay behind the cold, clicking, flashing face -- miles and miles of face -- of that giant computer. They had at least a vague notion of the general plan of relays and circuits that had long since grown past the point where any single human could possibly have a firm grasp of the whole.

Multivac was self-adjusting and self-correcting. It had to be, for nothing human could adjust and correct it quickly enough or even adequately enough. So Adell and Lupov attended the monstrous giant only lightly and superficially, yet as well as any men could. They fed it data, adjusted questions to its needs and translated the answers that were issued. Certainly they, and all others like them, were fully entitled to share in the glory that was Multivac's.

For decades, Multivac had helped design the ships and plot the trajectories that enabled man to reach the Moon, Mars, and Venus, but past that, Earth's poor resources could not support the ships. Too much energy was needed for the long trips. Earth exploited its coal and uranium with increasing efficiency, but there was only so much of both.

But slowly Multivac learned enough to answer deeper questions more fundamentally, and on May 14, 2061, what had been theory, became fact.


The Last Question by Asimov.

If you read this short story, it'll become clear that Asimov had also wondered about the same things you have in the OP.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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Thanks everybody for the replies, flags & stars!

MichaelBrux Neither. Both.

God is not subject to time, we are. we are bound and contained in a box that only God lives outside of, which from our point of view is both past and future...i.e eternity.
Why?
I’ve always viewed time like a roll of film. The age of the present, is the age of when the film was being filmed, and so is totally impossible to quantify. “People often argue: Does free will exist, or is it all cause and effect?”
I reply both! When you do something, you are just like the actor on the stage, so whilst 99% has been pre-scripted by cause & effect, you can still have free will (as nothing is pure, and even real actors choose when to e.g. blink their eyelids -even if that’s one of the things most dictated by Cause and Affect!).
However: After you’ve done something: (Good, bad, or whatever) it was always inevitable, since the start of the universe that you would do it (i.e. through cause and effect). This makes sense too, since: When was the last time you undid something you did in the past? To do so, would upset the whole film-universe. And if it were possible, (which it might one day) then the film roll, just becomes more 3D (much a row of film rolls, with the reader reading sideways, as well as forwards-backwards).


TruthSeekerMike God is uncreated. Even if a machine could create universes, it would have still been created by creatures of the uncreated God.
That's true, but since before the universe time doesn't exist, it hardly stops it's creation being projected from the future, when time does exist. Because without time, a million billion eternities has happened in a blink of an eye, by the time of the first second. What I am proposing is purest nothing is inherently unstable, because without time there is no time until it finds a way out of being nothing. Even right now, we know the purest vacuum in this universe is crammed full with virtual photon -my guess is that it's some kind of safety system-program, because (by being full of something) -even if it is virtual, a new universe is created from exploding into being here there & everywhere.
edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: Improved for clarity



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 08:26 PM
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Logically, the creation cannot contain its creator, and if time is a variable associated with the creation, but not the creator, there isn't a rational answer to your question, because "future" and "past" are non-rational concepts in a non-temporal realm.

The traditional answer, of course, is that the creator is outside of time, and so is a non-created thing, without beginning or end.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
Logically, the creation cannot contain its creator, and if time is a variable associated with the creation, but not the creator, there isn't a rational answer to your question, because "future" and "past" are non-rational concepts in a non-temporal realm.

The traditional answer, of course, is that the creator is outside of time, and so is a non-created thing, without beginning or end.


the creator can be outside of our time,,

but wouldn't the creator still have to obey the unfolding of our time?

for example if the universe was a lava lamp the creator was watching unfold and change ( as we view from inside the universe unfold and change as time),,.,. wouldn't it have to flow from one point to the next,,, the creator cant really peak to the end,,, or mess with something that happens in the future,, because it depends on the universe unfolding as we do,, for the future to occur,.,. it can predict,, quite perfectly,,, it can know all possible outcomes i guess,.,. but the universe contains a lot of information,, a lot of subtleties and intricacies,,, and it unfolds for a very long time,.,.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by adjensen
Logically, the creation cannot contain its creator, and if time is a variable associated with the creation, but not the creator, there isn't a rational answer to your question, because "future" and "past" are non-rational concepts in a non-temporal realm.

The traditional answer, of course, is that the creator is outside of time, and so is a non-created thing, without beginning or end.


the creator can be outside of our time,,

but wouldn't the creator still have to obey the unfolding of our time?


No, not if they are outside of time -- everything in our existence would already have happened from that perspective.

The best illustration that I've run across is this. Take a piece of paper, and draw a straight line on it. The beginning of the line is your birth, the end is your death. Along that line are the events of your life -- going to school, getting married, having children, and so on, but you can only move along that line in one direction, from left to right, birth to death.

Now, with that in mind...

God is the paper.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 09:34 PM
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I'm pretty sure that if you are a "creator" then you are in time, as the very action of creating requires time.

I think more than likely a powerful enough AI will eventually come to the conclusion that "one does not become infinite, one realizes they already are"... which would change it's self-definition as an AI into something much more.

God is not created, though this idea of the timeless being created may be perceived in various forms. As I say, life is emergent not created.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by ImaFungi

Originally posted by adjensen
Logically, the creation cannot contain its creator, and if time is a variable associated with the creation, but not the creator, there isn't a rational answer to your question, because "future" and "past" are non-rational concepts in a non-temporal realm.

The traditional answer, of course, is that the creator is outside of time, and so is a non-created thing, without beginning or end.


the creator can be outside of our time,,

but wouldn't the creator still have to obey the unfolding of our time?


No, not if they are outside of time -- everything in our existence would already have happened from that perspective.

The best illustration that I've run across is this. Take a piece of paper, and draw a straight line on it. The beginning of the line is your birth, the end is your death. Along that line are the events of your life -- going to school, getting married, having children, and so on, but you can only move along that line in one direction, from left to right, birth to death.

Now, with that in mind...

God is the paper.


ok.,,.,. but the line still had to be drawn second by second, day by day, year by year,.., for the paper to view the increasing, growing, elapsing line,,,

the line didnt just poof there perfectly whole,.,.,. all things didnt poof at the same time,.,.,. everything poofs at different times,.,.,. that difference in poofing,, and lengths of poof,,, is the measurement of time.,,.
edit on 8-9-2012 by ImaFungi because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by circlemaker
 


"I'm pretty sure that if you are a "creator" then you are in time, as the very action of creating requires time. "

true the creator operates in time,.,,.,.

but he does not necessarily need to be restricted by his creations perception or unraveling or keeping of time,.,.,.

potentially,.,.,. god could exist.,.,., god could exist.,.,., doing his thing,,, doing his thing,.,. things he is doing are being done in "time"..,., then he decides to create a universe,..,.

universe begins.,.,,. for us this is the beginning of time.,,. for us this is the only time we know,.,. meanwhile god is aware of his realm and time,, and he is aware of ours,.,.

there could be different lapses of time,.,.,. the bible writers thought of this when they wrote a thousand days on earth is a day in heaven,, but i might have gotten that backwards.,..,



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 10:14 PM
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abjensenLogically, the creation cannot contain its creator,
Normal logic has a habit of being irrelevant whenever it comes to things like e.g. The Double Slit Experiment www.youtube.com... (Although annoying, this 5 minute cartoon video, actually explains better the experiment than any other video I’ve seen)
Or see: Quantum Entanglement, www.youtube.com... this particular 5 min video explains the practical applications –including drastically accelerating the power of computers, plus might (if the vids being completely honest) explain a famous card trick done by the likes of Darren Brown.

My Only Point Being…
Whenever we talk about before the universe (i.e. 14.6 billion years ago) it is quite logical, that normal logic does not apply either. Here’s Why…

Question: “What was going on 27 billion, or 270 billion years ago?”
Answer: “They did not exist”
Question: “But: What was going on in that period of time anyway! I.e 100 billion (plus) years ago?”

My Answer…
(Although pure nothing did not "exist" in common sense terms, it was still a situation that was present). So this pure nothing had more than enough time (an infinite amount of time in fact) (contradictably enough, precisely because it’s without time!!) to become something i.e. that virtually infinite supply of energy, released at the start of this universe.

If people say: “but God, is an extraterrestrial –i.e. some dude outside this universe!” then that does not solve the problem either, in fact no more than it answers it.
Because: It simply moves the question of "what created the God" to what created the creator before the creator –it’s own universe?

If however…
You allow yourself to say “God’s creation, created God” (i.e. because its creation had a future which eventually allowed for God, to transcend time at will) then you do have an answer, and it does actually stack up (even though at first, it does also appear to completely contradict common sense).

PS: I accidently missed an important word in my last paragraph. I meant to say…
“Even right now, we know the purest vacuum in this universe is crammed full with virtual photon -my guess is that they're some kind of safety system-program, because (by being full of something) -even if it is virtual, a new universe is PREVENTED from exploding into being here there & everywhere.”
edit on 090705 by Liberal1984 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 10:27 PM
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reply to post by Liberal1984
 


Yes, unfortunately, we do not (and most likely, cannot) know what the state of things was like prior to the Big Bang. Recent cosmological observations have demonstrated that the Universe is not cyclical (universal expansion is accelerating, while a cyclical universe would require either deceleration, or an increasing rate of compression.) From that, we can determine that the state of the universe, prior to the Big Bang, was not another universe which collapsed in on itself, but we cannot determine what it was.

However, it does give us the convenience of being able to state, fairly confidently, that the universe had a beginning, and it will have an end -- it is not eternal. And that is the point at which science completes its conclusions and subsequent discussions are matters of philosophy, not science, and that changes the discussion, significantly. Lawrence Krauss notwithstanding, science, no matter what branch, not even quantum mechanics, can answer how something can come from nothing (Krauss makes a number of invalid propositions, not the least of which is his claim that "nothing" includes the existence of the laws of physics, which is, in fact, "something".)



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by Liberal1984Question: “What was going on 27 billion, or 270 billion years ago?”


Big bang is like a singularity, a 0-point. There's no time before it. It's the origin point for both space and time.

14.6 - 27 = -12.4

As I understand it, 27b years in the past would be a reflection of our universe as it was 2.2b years ago. What I'm wondering though is if right and left would be switched.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 01:20 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
universe begins.,.,,. for us this is the beginning of time.,,. for us this is the only time we know,.,. meanwhile god is aware of his realm and time,, and he is aware of ours,.,.

there could be different lapses of time,.,.,. the bible writers thought of this when they wrote a thousand days on earth is a day in heaven,, but i might have gotten that backwards.,..,


God could be just some dude in a basement on his own timeline outside of ours yet inside his own. Which would imply there's another level above his, and potentially also below ours (kinda like the movie 13th Floor). A fractal timeline with an infinite number of creators. In order to be outside of our timeline a creator would posses the ability to observe (or even interact) with any point on our timeline. We can sortof do this already with imagination. Our imagined worlds could be someone else's real worlds.

It's fun speculating about this stuff.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 01:30 PM
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reply to post by circlemaker
 


"There's no time before it. It's the origin point for both space and time. "

its the origin point for both space and time of the universe the singularity created,.,.

but you dont get to dictate to reality whether or not space, time, and energy existed before the big bang/singularity...



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by circlemaker
 


"There's no time before it. It's the origin point for both space and time. "

its the origin point for both space and time of the universe the singularity created,.,.

but you dont get to dictate to reality whether or not space, time, and energy existed before the big bang/singularity...


Fair enough. There could be another universe outside of it. As a self-contained universe/timeline however I stand by what I said. Even conventional science agrees that the big bang was the beginning of time, since space and time are connected.



posted on Sep, 9 2012 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by michaelbrux
Neither. Both.

God is not subject to time, we are. we are bound and contained in a box that only God lives outside of, which from our point of view is both past and future...i.e eternity.

the AI will be subject and bound within this very same box. after reading all of the books and processing all of the data, the AI will arrive at the same conclusion I've proposed.

no matter how advanced the AI becomes...it will always and forever be little more than a single data point among many on a much bigger and far more powerful computer screen.



You sound so POSITIVE on your answer!! How about giving us "gods" email address or phone number so that each of us here may also verify this info that you are so CERTAIN of being true.

edit on 9-9-2012 by HangTheTraitors because: (no reason given)




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