Christians help me debunk these non sense atheistic beliefs about Genesis please

Originally posted by Seede

TextSTOP! How did god create light? Did he wave a magic wand?

reply to post by jiggerj

jiggerj

You don't understand what the bible is teaching. God only creates this artificial light for you. Not Him. He is the celestial light and he is the darkness which is the absence of His celestial light.

Psa 139:12 Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.

You and I are nothing but a creature of what the Creator has created. Your pride can devour you if you are not careful. Mocking God is a foolish thing to do.

I'm sorry, but YOU don't understand the bible. Are you going to debate theologians that have devoted years and years of study to the bible and a creator?

Your god is timeless, without form, and without being created. For a god to be any kind of light is to be with form.

Haven't you watched any of the debates of the religious scholars that know a LOT more than you or I?

Click on this youtube link and choose any debate on the right. They are fascinating and illuminating. Know Your Bible

reply to post by ExNihilo


God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night,
on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the
sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5

the sun and stars are just one form of light producing objects, and they just product light. On the first day God created the concept of light and dark, That doesn't mean he had to create an object that emitted it.
Also there many versus that talk about God being light, and that light is holy and the dark is absent from him.

Psalm 89:15
15 Blessed are those who have learned to acclaim you, who walk in the light of your presence, O LORD.

God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day)
working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls
heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters.
This firmament, if it existed, would have been quite an obstacle to our
space program. 1:6-8

The Hebrew raqia (the “firmament” of the KJV, ASV, RSV, et al.) means an “expanse” (Davidson, 1963, p. DCXCII; Wilson, n.d., p. 166), or “something stretched, spread or beaten out” (Maunder, 1939, p. 315; Speiser, 1964, p. 6). Keil and Delitzsch offered this definition in their monumental commentary on the Pentateuch: “to stretch, to spread out, then beat or tread out...the spreading out of air, which surrounds the earth as an atmosphere” (1980, 1:52).

In an article discussing the “firmament” of Genesis 1:6-8, Gary Workman observed that this word is an “unfortunate translation” because it “not only is inaccurate but also has fostered unjust criticism that the Bible erroneously and naively pictures the sky above the earth as a solid dome” (1991, 11[4]:14). Strictly speaking, of course, “firmament” is not actually a translation of raqia at all, but rather, more accurately, a transliteration (i.e., the substitution of a letter in one language for the equivalent letter in another language) of an “unfortunate translation.” Allow me to explain.

www.apologeticspress.org...

Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their
photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

Again God is light, so they were all good.

next post cont.

reply to post by ExNihilo



"He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making
the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a
hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions
of stars. 1:16

"And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the
earth." Really? Then why are only a tiny fraction of stars visible from
earth? Under the best conditions, no more than five thousand stars are
visible from earth with the unaided eye, yet there are hundreds of
billions of stars in our galaxy and a hundred billion or so galaxies.
Yet this verse says that God put the stars in the firmament "to give
light" to the earth. 1:17
Really over the entire face of the earth we can only see 5,000 stars that figure sounds pretty small. light travels infinitely through space to so we are constantly being bombarded by the light from more and more different stars every day eventually that would be all of them.

God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth,
and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth
upon the earth." This verse is used to justify Christian opposition to
birth control, to concern for the environment, and to animal rights. The
earth was made for humans, and they can do as they damn well please with
it. 1:28
Leviticus 25:23-24 - The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you are but aliens and my tenants. Throughout the country that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.
Ezekial 34:2-4 - Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally.
Isaiah 24:4-6 - The earth dries up and withers, the world languishes and withers, the exalted of the earth languish. The earth is defiled by its people; they have disobeyed the laws, violated the statutes and broken the everlasting covenant. Therefore a curse consumes the earth; its people must bear their guilt. Therefore earth's inhabitants are burned up, and very few are left.
evil people have always tried to twist the bibles words to get what they want.


All animals were originally herbivores. Tapeworms, vampire bats,
mosquitoes, and barracudas -- all were strict vegetarians, as they were
created by God. But, of course, we now know that there were carnivorous
animals millions of years before humans existed. 1:30
male mosquitoes only eat nectar and live very well, your forgetting were talking about god he can do what he wants with one thought he could turn an animal from herbaceous to carnivore.

God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would
strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him.
(Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals,
God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must
have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20
Adam was supposed to live forever if he didn't fall into sin, so yeah it could have taken a real long time but it wouldn't have mattered.

God's clever, talking serpent. 3:1
what am i to disprove here? or are you just trying to be witty. OH BOY!!! your "CRAFTY"!!!

next post cont.

reply to post by ExNihilo


God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide
and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11
8 Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden. 9 But the LORD God called to the man, “Where are you?”
10 He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
11 And he said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?”
where in this, does it say God is talking to himself ??? when you walk through the woods you don't make any noises? leafs don't rustle ? and they were hiding from God because they screwed up, they knew they did something wrong. The same thing a child does when they know they did wrong.



God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly
and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his
tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14
maybe they had legs before? you have never heard the phrase "eat my dust" it was a curse to have its face in the ground for the rest of its existence.

God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18
And ??? what am I supposed to disprove here.

God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve. 3:21

Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me
shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two
other humans alive at the time -- his parents! 4:14
so, if I found out my son killed his brother I would be pretty pissed.

"And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." 4:16

"And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come
from? 4:17

sister, no offence but women weren't as important back then so they probably wouldn't have recorded her name.

I could keep going but this is just getting monotonous, and it doesn't really matter what I say anyways. you have made your mind up and you're never going to change it, so I don't see why you even bothered to post any of this other than to pat yourself on the back. If you know Christianity is false just move on with your life, it's funny to me how people complain that Christians always try and push their beliefs on everyone else. But what are you doing right now?

reply to post by ExNihilo


From a Christian point of view, Science has been busy providing us with proof of all things biblical.

The one TRUTH here is that ATHEISITS ... DO NOT BELIEVE IN ANYTHING ! That is the their belief system.
They don't believe in God, Satan or anything else. They are the worlds full 100% skeptics. And when they
are shown the TRUTH or the ERROR of their BELIEF's, they are amazed, astounded and they change their
tune and adopt some theology that is against Atheism.

I'm not going to bother reading every post here, I've read a few pages. Like most of you, I don't think he is being sincere, because a sincere seeker actually seeks. You can go online, type in each question into your preferred search engine and read pro and con comments and studies about each topic. I can take just one and debunk it, like the talking snake of Genesis.

As a linguistic student I go back to the original texts and look up the word used which is Nachash. There are 3 versions depending on the jots and tittles, and that version means highly polished bronze or shining one. We know Satan comes masquarading as an angel / messenger of light, thus Eve talked with a beautiful shining one not a snake. Though, metaphorically snakes were not appreciated and one could take poetic license that he is a snake and viper just as Yeshua called his children the scribes and Pharisees snakes and vipers. Do you think they too were slithering on the ground and not men?

So, I as a true student of ancient texts, study to find out answers, I expect the OP if sincere to break out his own Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and JP Green's Interlinear lexicon of Hebrew and Greek and study the bible in it's original languages. Most people don't bother because it's not something they really care to study. If you really do care about it, then YOU will study, and YOU will dig and find answers. It took me 20 years to find an answer as to why a rapist can pay the girls father 50 shechels and marry the girl, and never divorce her. I had an attitude about "What girls wants to marry her rapist". I think I finally got my answer in prayer one day, and I am satisfied. I lived in the middle east, I have studied ancient customs, and such. I could go on with what I learned, but I won't. Suffice it to say, this was a way for girls to be with the one they loved but socially had no method to be with them. Both families oddly got to save face.

Enjoy your games OP, and if per chance you are not just trying to muddy clean water and troll, then my recommendation still stands. Get your own supplies, start studying and searching for answers YOURSELF because anything I say will mean nothing to you, and quite frankly anything handed to you on a plate you won't appreciate. It's casting pearls to swine frankly, and I don't care to have my Lord's love, wisdom, and long suffering trampled underfoot, by piggish games.

Oh, you can get a free electronic KJV and Strong's at e-sword, and start there.

reply to post by bigcountry08


I am a christian.

Originally posted by hotpinkurinalmint
I am not a Christian, but perhaps as others have pointed out the book of Genesis is not to be taken literally or as scientific truth, but as an allegory. You should keep in mind that many of the characters and stories that appear in Genesis also appear in Mesopotamian myths that predate Genesis by centuries or even millenia.

The problem is that in this time and place, in our nation, (USA) there are people who have inserted themselves and their fundamental beliefs, their acceptance of the Bible as literal truth and fact, into our politics and the creation of laws. Many of these people are freakin bat # crazy and should be called out for it every time they speak. But NO, we have freedom of religion so we let them blather on and in the process they gather all the other loonies to them who then proceed, with their numbers, to subvert what was intended to be a secular nation built upon on law for the common good. There are so many of these fear mongering idiots in power now that we truly do stand the chance of becoming a Theocracy/Oligarchy. Well oligarchy for sure, but theocracy is a close second.

While discussing all of the contradictions in the Bible is as useless as chasing ones tail, the subject does occasionally need to be brought up, if for no other reason than to figure out who's who in the running of the asylum race.

Oh, me? I am not a Christian, but I do follow the teachings of Christ. You know, that feed the hungry, care for the poor, socialist Jew. I also try to find spiritual truths in other teachings as well. I believe many roads lead to God. Whatever/whoever that is.

reply to post by jiggerj

I guess you believe what you will . There are Theologians that like you do not believe and because they have been taught by schools that do not endorse God and research that way . Then there are those that believe . What I can't understand is why people who don't believe waste their time on these sites . I suppose that they are worried that they are wrong and hope to by consensus console themselves . Of course they could be trying to rain on someone's parade .

reply to post by jaguarsky

You are very misinformed about the design of this country by our forefathers . You should go back and study the founding of this country . It was not created as a secular country . The KJV bible was submitted as the preferred bible by our government to use . The Rotunda was used as a church by our government for 100 years and the Military Honor band for the music for that church . The foundation of this country was the Christian Faith . There was no requirement to practice any religion . There was no restrictions on what religion if any that you practice . The principle objective was to get away from England and the state mandated religion of Catholicism not Christianity . There is a vast difference between the two .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I guess you believe what you will . There are Theologians that like you do not believe and because they have been taught by schools that do not endorse God and research that way . Then there are those that believe . What I can't understand is why people who don't believe waste their time on these sites . I suppose that they are worried that they are wrong and hope to by consensus console themselves . Of course they could be trying to rain on someone's parade .

I'm a deist. Theists believe.
It's not raining on people's parade when discussions might just save them from living a lie, whether it's religious brainwashing or when something really stinks in the field of science. If there is a goal mixed in with just chatting about religion, evolution, the Big Bang, how the first living cell got it's start...it's to let people know that there are things they DON'T know, and to try again, and try harder.

Haven't you ever been in a situation that caused you to yell, "Why didn't anybody tell me this?!" It doesn't feel good, does it? Not knowing the truth, or the whole truth. This is why we chat. Not to win, but to exchange ideas.

If you are stuck in your beliefs, unwilling to look at them from a different perspective, then why do YOU "waste your time on these sites"?

TextYour god is timeless, without form, and without being created. For a god to be any kind of light is to be with form.

reply to post by jiggerj

jiggerj

I realize that there are many people that have doctorates in both philosophy and theology but the basis here is the Hebrew bible in the Masoretic text. Now you are entitled to reference your own material but I am referencing the Hebrew text and not any other ideology. In my understanding God does have a form even though He is Spirit.

The Genesis account tells me that Moses has written --
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The Image of God is His Word. His Word has been brought forth from him. Not created by Him but brought forth from Himself. The Word is the celestial visibility of the celestial spirit. The likeness of the Father is Spirit God Himself. When God declared that both He and His Word created man, he is showing us that the Word is the second part of His existence.

This is confirmed by the Apostle John as he states the following --
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

As John grew old and supposedly wrote the book of Revelations from Christ to him, he says the following --
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
By this it is established,from the scriptures, that the Word is an entity and the visible form of God.

After the entire creation is finished and destroyed from this earth we then find the Word submitting His authority and power back to the Father.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

All this has shown is that the Father God does have an image of terrestrial substance which is Jesus and a image of celestial substance which is the The Word. You and I are created in the same pattern. We have a terrestrial image and after this image dies, we then have a spiritual image.

Now as for the Creator and light is concerned -
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The Apostle John has written -
1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

Rev 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. This is in reference to New Jerusalem and the Lamb is the Word.

The scriptures tell us that God's glory is light and that God is light and that light is not created by God but only the darkness was created by God. There is no darkness in God. God is Light and His image (form) is light.

It does no good to argue theology without a common bases to reference. I can't argue with a JW and their new world bible because we use different bases of manuscripts. The same with many other denominations of Christians. I have no denomination for a base outside of the Hebrew Masoretic text and the Greek majority text of Geneva 1560.

It would not even be profitable to sit in a group and discuss this literature unless everyone were on the same page. Even then we would have to be honest and call it theology.

I don't dislike you jiggerj for disagreeing with me and I don't mean to come across as a superior intellect. That is not the purpose here at ATS. The purpose is to discuss a topic regardless of who is on the other end of this line.
I may be absolutely wrong in my theological rants but we are not discussing absolutes here and I very well understand that.

reply to post by ExNihilo

God's clever, talking serpent. 3:1

God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11

God had created the Serpent. Yes in a sense He was talking to His own self, yet the Serpent represents Satan, and as you've stated before, God had created Light and Dark.

So in response to your OP, Yes God was in fact speaking with Himself in the Garden. Both sides of the spectrum.

Do you understand, or can i explain it a bit better for you in any way?
Mike

reply to post by ExNihilo


Listen, im not here to argue, but you've really got nothing supporting your case here...

Your knowledge really doesn't scratch the surface of what is meant by the scripture.

So, no im really not willing to help you, sorry dude.

I wouldn't be able to prove something if the people whom happen to be on my side are only hurting my argument, and in this case, you do not really know what you're talking about.

For future reference, if you're trying to convert Athiests, please do not. I know for a fact that they do not like this.

Especially if they are more versed in YOUR own religion, than you are.



To Athiests,

I do NOT have any specific religion, nor do i choose to tie myself to one in hopes of making it to heaven someday. I do believe in God, yet i cannot and will not try to prove His existence to you.

I have not met personally with Him, but i have had a few experiences in my life which had seemed to be influenced in some way or another.

If a few of us, like-minded individuals, can agree that there are beliefs in which not everyone will agree. Whether there is proof behind the manner, is irrelevant. NO ONE, has met God face to face, yet no one has died and told us that there is nothing afterwards.

So, the question is always up for argument.

Hope we can all be peaceful individuals about this,
Mike

To prove to yourself God is real. All you have to do is die.

reply to post by 00018GE


Yes but it will be too late then !

Originally posted by Seede


I don't dislike you jiggerj for disagreeing with me and I don't mean to come across as a superior intellect. That is not the purpose here at ATS. The purpose is to discuss a topic regardless of who is on the other end of this line.
I may be absolutely wrong in my theological rants but we are not discussing absolutes here and I very well understand that.

Same here, my friend. We're just shootin' the breeze. And you've made it very interesting. Thank you.

That said, shall we continue? Twice in this reply I noticed a statement on how god created darkness. This must mean evil, right? Because darkness can't be created; it is the absence of light. Right?

Originally posted by jaguarsky

Oh, me? I am not a Christian, but I do follow the teachings of Christ. You know, that feed the hungry, care for the poor, socialist Jew. I also try to find spiritual truths in other teachings as well. I believe many roads lead to God. Whatever/whoever that is.

Good for you!

Isnt it ODD how its the always the NON-CHRISTAINS who always seem to WALK the Christ-like WALK, while its those who claim to be devoted Christians who TALK the Christ-like TALK!!

They talk the talk but never WALK THE WALK when it comes to being Christ-like. Funny, isnt it. HYPOCRITES!!

Originally posted by okyouwin

Originally posted by OrphenFire
These "inconsistencies" show a great ignorance of biblical content and Judaic & Christian Theology.

I am an atheist and I can tell you right now that most of these are simply nitpicking and looking for a reason to make fun of the bible. But hey, to each their own...

Yeah dude you tell him. I didn't read all of them either, but I bet they're about where God made stupid mistakes in his logic, and intent. Yeah what about that tower of Babel? You see that all the time. God appears afraid, or concerned for some reason.

And then one begins to question where the balance of power between God and man really lies.

So I guess the OP is asking, "God being omnipotent and all, why leave such glaring inconsistencies in the written account?"

edit on 9-9-2012 by okyouwin because: clarity

I ended up reading the entire thing. It is quite entertaining. Some if it is good, and some of it is just nit picking.

Originally posted by cartenz
reply to post by rwfresh

 

Degree!, you can Get your PHd in Biblical Wrongology at most Universities. They call the course "Philosophy" to keep away the Westbro Baptist Church protestors

Did you know that the westbro church is a cult who's members are all part of a single family.. give or take a few? crazy.