Gays have the right to marry and always have

reply to post by StalkerSolent


I don't mean to interject but you bring up a great point. The thing is I don't think (from my experience anyway) that many people want to abolish the big monotheistic religions. I think what most people want is for church to get out of state as there is supposed to be a separation.

Marriage CAN be a religious contract but it is a LEGAL contract also. I don't believe anyone is denying that a marriage from a Fundamentalist Christian standpoint (or an Islamic or Jewish standpoint) is a marriage between man and woman sanctioned by god.

But from a legal standpoint that definition can not stand. From a legal standpoint to deny two men or two women the same protections that a Hetero couple receives is DISCRIMINATION.

Monotheistic religions did not invent marriage, it was incorporated and infolded into their belief systems. Monotheistic religions can not and should not have a monopoly on the word marriage. They can have their idea of marriage but they can not have all marriage.

If two atheists get married by the Justice of the peace so that they can have medical and legal benefits (the same benefits a Christian gets, mind you) Are they not married even without god? Why aren't Christians protesting Atheistic Marriage to the degree they are protesting Homosexual marriage?

Speaking of America, the only reason States are denying marriage to Homosexuals is because of the Christian majority. States are in bed with Church.

A distinction needs to be made between Christian marriage and marriage in and of itself.

Edit: I'm not saying Homosexuals can't be Christians, I believe they can if they so choose. I only use the distinction between "Christian Marriage" and Legal (re:secular) Marriage as an example of one way a fundamentalist could perceive the topic at hand. I could go into the reason a Homosexual can be Christian but that really would need to be a completely separate topic lol.

Originally posted by ideasarebulletproof
reply to post by thehoneycomb

 

Let us go the next logical step with your assessment.

Let's ban inter-racial marriages. Blacks have the same right as whites: To marry in their own race.

This was banned for a time. But, one of the problems there is defining black and white. What about all the mixed race people? How do we fit them in? There are no mixed sexed people. At least, they are a rare commodity indeed. So, it's easier to separate the gays from the straights.

Let's ban disproportionate wealth marriages. Poor people have the same right to marry as the rich, as long as they marry another poor person.

Again, this has been the practice for a long time. It's still a force even today. Europe had the class system. Royalty could only marry Royalty etc...no matter how ugly the Royal spouse might be, still that Royal blood entitled union with a Royal mate by decree.

Let's ban inter-religious marriages. Muslims have the same right to marry as everyone else, as long as they marry in their own religion.

Many places in the world forbid inter-religious marriages, already. Been there, done that. Old news.

You see how this silly argument from folks against gay marriage is?

It's not silly at all. In all other cases you refer to, it is society's social structures that form the distinctions between people, but here it's biology, a nature barrier.

A black man can marry a white woman and produce a child. Nature allows it, God allows it. It is only we the people who impose some restriction to keep things the way we want to see them.

A muslim can marry a jew and produce a child. Nature allows it, God allows it. It is only we the people who impose some restriction.....

But a gay man marrying another gay man cannot produce offspring no matter how many times they "copulate".
Nature has banned it, God has forbidden it, and no amount of laws passed by us can change that reality.

"They have the same rights as everyone else. They can marry anyone they want, just not of the same sex."

They cannot have the same right, even if we the people wanted to give them the same right, because it is not within our power to grant "equality" to people whom Nature or God has designed to be different.

Let us pass a law to give fish the same rights as birds.

We hereby decree, that from this date onward, fish are allowed to roam the sky and birds are permitted to visit the ocean floors.

We'd love to have this power as humans to grant or deny rights to whomsoever we wish.

The right of two men to produce a child by copulation, how can we do it? Science is not there yet. Maybe we can put an artificial "womb" into the body of a man, and attach it's entrance to the "colon". So that men too can have the "equal right" to bear children like straight couples. But, we're a long way from that technology.

That would also bring up another problem for children. Imagine kids at school arguing among each other, "I was born through a vagina, where did you come out?"

See? No matter what we do, or how hard we try, we cannot circumvent the design.

reply to post by GreatOwl

what a hair-brained theory you've got going there.

first, you claim there is a natural barrier ... forget the fact that gay folks have been producing children for many years before the platform of gay marriage was even a cry from the fringe.

so, now that we have gay persons producing children, you jump to "copulation" requirements. well, does that "requirement" apply to non-offspring-producing heterosexuals ??

If a hetero couple doesn't produce a family, why should they be entitled to any special privilege or benefit specifically designed to encourage "family" structures ??

what you seem to ignore is that the right of marriage (consentual legal contract), is an unalienable right.
it is not a privilege bestowed by anyone other than the participants.

the discriminatory practices of the state regarding licensing marriage are what needs to change.

reply to post by GreatOwl


Well that is all your opinion. If you believe god has made being gay a sin, then don't marry someone the same gender as you.

See how easy that is?

If it is your belief that gay people are going to hell, and "god" has made it a sin, then why on earth do you even care?

And please spare me the 'compassionate soul saver' diatribe of trying to "save" people. That's not going to fly with me.

reply to post by GreatOwl


"But a gay man marrying another gay man cannot produce offspring no matter how many times they "copulate".
Nature has banned it, God has forbidden it, and no amount of laws passed by us can change that reality."

I just had to try messaging something so uninformed and ridiculous myself to see if it came across as anything other than the tacky bit of gibberish your head just farted out.your narcissism rubbed off on me and i thought i could make it sound less pathetic, sadly it turns out when i type it it still comes across as a sad closed minded bigots head fart, it's sad you can't see that the world already moved on whilst you were screaming against the wind. the wind will always win and right now it's not in your favour

"The times they are a changing".... people with your attitude are being left behind, the rest of us are trying to be decent to each other and evolve past following a very very old rule book(i say following the rule book but always only the bits you agree with, gods word is very flexible with you people) be kind to people for a change and spend a day trying to minimalise your narcissism, imagine just for one day that you dont have all of the answers and you're not superior to everybody else, it'll be liberating.
be safe

Originally posted by Miri08
Never mind that numerous studies find that children raised in Homosexual households are just as well adjusted as children raised in Heterosexual households.

Never mind that Homosexuality is found in many different species and thus Homosexuality is for all intensive purposes older than modern humans and therefore just as natural as Heterosexuality and, oh say, breathing.

Never mind that Homosexuals can not marry(in all places) because if they were to marry under your example they would not be Homosexuals, they would be Heterosexuals.

If you disregard all of that your argument makes perfect sense.

edit on 7-9-2012 by Miri08 because: spelling and an add on

Homosexual acts may be found in nature, but gays are not natural. Animals that commit homosexual acts are filling a need. Are animals gay for life? Any animal? No, because that animal would be extinct by now.

reply to post by Miri08


Sorry, I didn't know there was a kind of marriage predating the Bible, I apologize. Still, I believe gay sex is unnatural, and because of my spiritual beliefs, I do believe it's wrong.

You, along with a lot of other people, seem to not understand that "my truth" is my belief, and from my point of view (and it's not just MY view), it is EVERYONE'S truth. That's how people with strong beliefs think.

Also, I have gay and bi friends, I don't hate gays... I just don't agree with the sin itself. Yes, I believe it's a sin. I have every right to believe that, just like they have every right to think otherwise. I just don't believe in it, just like I don't believe in prostitution, people having sex with animals... hell, I don't even believe in porn. I can't stand porn.

Most people think I don't care about anything, because I am a hardcore punk chick---spikes, chains, leather gloves, crazy makeup, blood red hair, everything. I have anger issues, and I talk smack about breaking the law a lot. That's just how my friends see me. Contrary to my exterior, though, I guess I have pretty conservative beliefs.

All I'm saying is gay marriage doesn't set right with me, along with about half of America. If they want to pass it, though, let em. I don't care that much.

Originally posted by glassspider
the rest of us are trying to be decent to each other and evolve

I get that.

Evolution by conscious design changes, instead of random selection.

I can dig it.

All I'm saying is that technology is not there yet.

I'm not saying it's wrong to want to evolve.

I just point out that we can't just pass a law to make things equal. There's a lot more going on than choice.

We are not the decider. Not yet, anyway.

Time may come when we be Gods.

Then, we can make anything happen.

Right now, we be just men, who have to submit to the design plan.

I'm not gay because I was built with different body parts.

I don't know what special body parts you need to be gay. Perhaps it's a closely guarded secret ?

reply to post by SepticSheepHerder


By that argument you would concede that Bisexuality is completely natural, because Bisexuals have a "chance at reproduction."

Homosexuality has been around longer than Homo sapiens sapiens, are we extinct? Why didn't I get the mass email that we were extinct? Boy, those Homosexuals have really upset the human population - There are SO FEW OF US...

Could it be, is it possible at all, that nature has a way of creating balance? Could it be that Homosexuality is natures way of keeping a sustainable population?

As a Heterosexual female who is married to a Heterosexual male, I fail to see how Homosexuals being allowed the legal protection of marriage threatens me in anyway whatsoever.

reply to post by glassspider


I am not attacking gays. I don't agree with their lifestyle.

It isn't natural, and I am spiritual, so I believe that it is wrong. It isn't my idea of the norm.

It's my belief of right and wrong. And, unlike mental issues, I think people have a little more control over being gay. Just about every so-called gay or bisexual I know has NEVER dated someone of the same sex. They use the "gay" label to make themselves interesting. Sure, some people MAY be genetically prone to being attracted to the same sex--because sometimes when a baby is developing, they start to develop into a female--then somehow, it turns out male. Some men are born with many girlish qualities and too little testosterone, and women vise versa. That sucks, and it's out of their control, but it doesn't stop the act from being unnatural, and, as I believe, wrong.

Also, many people preform gay sex simply because it's a sin, not because they particularly care for it. Same reason some people get the impulse to hurt others or steal things. It's a trill.

There's a million reasons people choose to be gay. I just don't care for the lifestyle, and that's all.

I'm not a hater, and I'd never do a hate crime. I don't go out of my way to make gay people feel bad, either. These are my beliefs, and I'm sorry if you don't agree with it, or you view it as an attack.

BTW, it's Dalek Sec, my favorite Dalek. He's a visionary for Daleks, and the smartest out of all of em.

Originally posted by ideasarebulletproof

And please spare me the 'compassionate soul saver' diatribe of trying to "save" people. That's not going to fly with me.

I don't want to save anyone. Save them from what? Men enjoy sin. That's why they dwell in the flesh. Nothing to save there. All flesh must kill other flesh and consume other flesh to keep the flesh going. Sin begets sin. All nations must invade other nations and plunder their wealth to keep themselves wealthy. This is the condition of man. But, there is one thing that is important. We are all connected. What I do affects you, and what you do affects me. You may not see the connection immediately, but it's there. If I poison all the fish in the river, you can no longer fish there. If I allow you to change the meaning of words in my language, I can no longer make myself understood. When I speak, there's then confusion by those who listen, because they then think I'm saying something else.

There's no such thing as equal rights. If all things become equal, then nothing is distinct, and no words have any unique meaning anymore. When we babble, people will only hear gibberish.

reply to post by XxNightAngelusxX


I do understand that Christians (just as an example) believe that Jesus is the lord, everyone's lord, believers and unbelievers alike. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I believe that Jesus may be the way for some but not for all.

As long as you are a believer and I am not we can never see eye to eye on this. But I can respect your belief and you can respect mine. We can aim to live and let live. We can aim to agree to disagree.

My only point is that marriage is not ONLY a Christian concept. To deny Legal Marriage to Homosexuals is discrimination in my eyes.

My views have been aptly expressed in my posts and your views have been aptly expressed as well. We will not agree but I certainly don't want to have an all out font war with anyone lol. Sometimes I come off as very confrontational where Homosexuality is concerned and I apologize if it seems that I was attacking Christianity. In the same way that I promote equality for sexual orientation I also am am very pro - religious freedom. I just can't help but wish that there was a more "live and let live" mindset.

Ask any gay person if they chose to be gay. Then ask yourself why this god would create a person doomed to some hell. By now you should be questioning your religion or realizing god must be the biggest a**hole around and you should distance yourself as much as possible.

reply to post by XxNightAngelusxX


forgive me but i am going to have to go through this bit by bit because there is quite alot that you've said that doesnt really make sense.....

I am not attacking gays. I don't agree with their lifestyle.

yes you are attacking gays when you call us an abomination, unnatural and all your other choice words

It isn't natural, and I am spiritual, so I believe that it is wrong. It isn't my idea of the norm.

a truly spiritual person would know that he doesn't have all of the answers and would be accepting of other people.

unlike mental issues, I think people have a little more control over being gay. Just about every so-called gay or bisexual I know has NEVER dated someone of the same sex. They use the "gay" label to make themselves interesting.

hard to know what to say to that . Mental health issues are not chosen but homosexuality is, so that's why you a self confessed suicidal person can still fit into you're good book but everyone else should be pushed out,and as for the bit about never meeting a "so-called gay or bisexual......." you really need to get out more, all of the gay and bisexual people i've met have done loads of love making with the same sex, that's how we get the gay/bisexual badge :0)

They use the "gay" label to make themselves interesting

we go through abuse on a daily basis get hounded out of neighbourhoods, get beaten on the streets, disowned by our christian families and denied basic human rights to make ourselves look interesting, really? that's a new one, but again I think you're meeting the wrong kind of gays:0D

Also, many people preform gay sex simply because it's a sin, not because they particularly care for it. Same reason some people get the impulse to hurt others or steal things. It's a trill.

and sadly it seems you genuinely believe that. Again you've been meeting some strange gays.

You need to start looking at the rest of the world you have a perfectly good brain capable of analysing any information that comes your way and weeding out the bull..yet you cling to silly ideas with no basis in reality...

There's a million reasons people choose to be gay. I just don't care for the lifestyle, and that's all.

firstly the majority of the world understands that people do not choose to be gay , if you don't care for the lifestyle don't take it up for yourself, really simple, but when you come online and imply that we are abominations choosing to be gay to piss off the poor white heterosexual christians, who've been at the top of the pile forever pissing down on the rest you know you're being foolish, you can't say don't judge me for my mental health and thoughts that go against my bible and then attack other people for not following it to the letter.


as for the dalek i wasn't saying caan was your photo i was saying that if you read your first post in the voice of the fabulously mental dalek caan, it's a lot funnier than intended, only one or two sentences don't fit the dalek noise so then i slip into davros in my head :0) honestly try it even though you agree with the points you raised it'll still make you giggle.
please talk to gay people and give yourself a chance to understand, even if at the end you don't understand and your head is still full of silly notions at least you'll be able to say you put your Judgements to one side and tried to understand but it didn't work out, don't just come on-line spewing crap you know nothing about it's awful to read when you're tryiing hard to see the good in a cruel world.

reply to post by Miri08


Thanks Miri!

See, IMHO, we ought to take the legality out of marriage, and let marriage be an entirely religious institution. The legal stuff ought to be done legally. I mean, I can make both a spiritual commitment to my (hypothetical) wife and then have a legal action done to reflect that reality. But I don't really care if two people (who may not even be romantically involved) making an identical legal contract.

This would also have interesting implications as relates to divorce, which might be a good thing...

reply to post by glassspider


I'm not attacking gays, honestly. If I was, I'd probrably call them every name in the book.

I never said I was suicidal, and have never BEEN suicidal. I was stating that my FRIEND was suicidal, and I understood how she felt.

When I told you my gay friends are basically adopting the gay lifestyle just to make themselves interesting, I was talking about every gay person I currently know. In the past, however, growing up, my father and step mother were both around a LOT of gay neighbors and friends, all of which treated my siblings and I like trash. A woman from a particular lesbian couple who lived next door to us once attacked me. Around other people like themselves, however, they were all chummy and nice. You think white Christians are the only ones who can discriminate? Then obviously, YOU are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about.

I know the difference between a genuinely homosexual person and a "fake" gay person, because I've been around them both.

If you're gay, then you're gay, and that's all well and good. You're still not going to change my beliefs, though.

The only thing I did was post my beliefs, which is exactly what you, and everyone else, are doing. Yet somehow, my beliefs are an attack because they happen to be a little conservative on this matter?

Do you know how much Christians are hated because of a simple difference in beliefs?

I know EXACTLY what that feels like, so don't sit there and assume I don't know what I'm talking about just because I'm expressing the same feeling from a different view point.

Like I said, I have never preformed a hate crime, I have never called a gay person ANY kind of discriminating name. I treat my gay friends with the exact respect I treat my other friends. You know why? Because God is in charge of judging them, not me. Just like no one else is in charge of judging me for anything I've done, except God.

Expressing my beliefs does not equal out to judging and condemning someone.

Also, I understood what you meant about the Dalek, I just wanted you to know it was Sec. Sec rocks

reply to post by thehoneycomb


Wow, you really are sad. Protect the family unit eh? In the interests of the children. Your idea of a family unit is a bit silly then because children are raised by grandparents, single parents, foster parents, siblings, whole villages and gay couples, those are all successfull family units for raising children. I'm sure there are more but that's not the point. The most successful parents I've known are those who had to work a little harder than the rest of us to have children, those with fertility issues and those who adopted including gay couples.
Marriage it's self protects NOTHING, especially not children. In florida a fourteen year old can marry with parental permission, people stay married to abusive partners 'for the children' and how does that benefit the child exactly? People marry for wealth and power, for immigration status and for fear of the alternative, people marry because their parents promised them into marriage as children, all manner of pressure pushes people to marry and these marriages do not magically ensure a good life for children.
If God told people to 'go forth and multiply' he didn't say they had to marry first.
Finally, of course Gay couple should have the same marriage rights as anyone else, including divorce. Marriage is a legal status and not some magical holy spell cast by a preacher or whomever. Get a grip.