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posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 12:53 PM
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I definitely appreciate the gesture. And there are definite solutions in DIY, but as I see it there are 3 enormous obstacles.

1. People don't care. They would rather buy cheap and convenient than support local, usually more expensive, producers. Basically the Walmart consumers, which make up the vast majority. Clearly they don't care because they would never even think about looking at that tag on that pair of jeans to see where it was made.

2. Big business owns the majority of the land and resources needed to produce things.

3. Big business owns the majority of the expensive, state of the art technology that enables them to produce said resources more efficiently and cheaply, making it very difficult for small business to compete.

All that said, there is an organization that I'm very fond of. They are trying to tackle the problem I listed as #2. The technology. They're called Open Source Ecology. opensourceecology.org

Considering so much of the edge that big business has regarding technology is based on intellectual property (patents, copyrights, trade secrets, etc.) they are using the idea of open source software and applying it to real physical machines like tractors, power cubes, earth brick press, CNC machines and many others.. basically machines that humans use today to live a high-tech, high quality life.

It's a very difficult goal, but I think they are the most ambitious group out there that are trying to revolutionize the economy using DIY values!




posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by HangTheTraitors
 


That might be 'Keeping it Real' for you, but my reality is different, so I am Not Locked into the scheme that only a ''REAL JOB" can make one fulfilled and prosper. This is part of the problem I think the OP wishes to address.

So many think that only with a Regular Check from Da Boss Inc. or other employer, when if I had Only relied on that mode of thought, I would have been Sucking Off the Government like so many Must. I sold my self, did various odd jobs, started my own business,, that NO it isn't a Big Time,, got me a million dollar yacht kind of side job, but it has put food on the table.

I believe Barter is a Useful tool that can help us get away from the Full Consumer Model, by various methods.
For Example, I had a birthday party,, First ever for myself in my home,, (Which by the way I am still hanging onto so I can say I am "Middle Class" {tag me with a boxed in motif}. ) and a Friend saw a painting I have,, and recently I told her I am Divesting myself of ''it all".
She is coming over to help, box, organize and clean, and I am exchanging (Barter) the painting for her energy expended. We will be having drinks , music and laughter at the same time, so 'work' will be PLAY.

the point is

We all NEED to LOOK at Our Worldviews, models, ideology and etc etc, and decide if it is time to get off our collective butts as the OP Suggest and Just DO SOMETHING,,

Turn off the TV, Computer and MOVE.

Find Your Own Creativity. Maybe visit someone in a retirement home that gets no visitors,, if you don't think it is useful to ''Make" something to use as a Creative Springboard to Other things.

The Mindset you display is not really '''real'', but remnants of the Debris of What We Are Dealing with, i.e. a Model (Corporate/capitalist/fascist) That Wants the kind of obedience you are suggesting, obedience to NOT Think for Oneself Creatively.

I say,, this is what is the FUTURE,, get used to it as THE Reality.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:07 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Hah! I lied, I really didnt set up a lemonade stand.

Now what?



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:10 PM
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Originally posted by Eidolon23

Originally posted by antar
reply to post by Destinyone
 


I am proud to hear you have done this. Could you open a thread and teach us your trade?


I second that motion, and would like to go further:

If you have skills or a trade you'd like to share, start a thread and feel free to link here! We already have a tremendous resource for learning about growing and processing food:

www.abovetopsecret.com...


edit on 8-9-2012 by Eidolon23 because: (no reason given)


Thanks,,
I have Never looked into that Forum group, so when I checked out what you both were talking about,, I was Again Proud to be the ATSer I am,,

and WOW,, what a good resource I have Not thought of
and to spend as much time as I do here,,
This is Great. and made me hungry,, off to lunch.

PS: and this is and edit to not make another post,,

I see Reflection gave me more to go on,,
Thanks to you,, in regards to Open Source Ecology.
This is a Great Thread just for these two things I have Learned,,, thanks to all.

Thanks Again.
edit on 9/8/2012 by EarthCitizen23 because: add PS
edit on 9/8/2012 by EarthCitizen23 because: spaced things



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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First off, great thread!

I'm surprised at the defeated attitudes some of our ATS members display. If you don't think it's possible, then it is not - and vice versa.

Don't let "big companies" scare and intimidate. We aren't trying to produce on a global scale like they are, we are just trying to create a little extra income on our part - locally.

I was just thinking the other day how great it would be if you were to network with other like-minded people. It would be awesome to create a business between other members. The model of this idea is, in no way, complete.
It's based off this: You get people who have talents/capacity. You then get together (or network) and create a type of business using everybody's talents. After some time and momentum, you expand on this concept and make it even bigger with more talent and production.

C'mon people!! Let's get together and make some money!! I know there's a TON of brilliant minds on this site.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by Snoopy1978
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Hah! I lied, I really didnt set up a lemonade stand.

Now what?


You know, somehow, I thought you might be fibbing.





posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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Rural people have always been less well off financially than their urban brethren so out of necessity they have perfected the art of bartering.
unlike in the big cities things aren`t open or available 24/7
if your well pump stops working on sunday afternoon you can`t just pick the phone and have the "well pump repair man" there in an hour. you`re gonna have to wait till 9 oclock monday morning to talk to a repair man.If you don`t want to go without water till monday morning you have to go out there and fix it yourself, or have a neighbor come over and fix it for you then you help him with something he needs done. Believe it or not it does still work this way in a lot of rural places in america.

edit on 8-9-2012 by Tardacus because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:33 PM
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Originally posted by Tardacus
Rural people have always been less well off financially than their urban brethren so out of necessity they have perfected the art of bartering.
unlike in the big cities things aren`t open or available 24/7
if your well pump stops working on sunday afternoon you can`t just pick the phone and have the "well pump repair man" there in an hour. you`re gonna have to wait till 9 oclock monday morning to talk to a repair man.If you don`t want to go without water till monday morning you have to go out there and fix it yourself, or have a neighbor come over and fix it for you then you help him with something he needs done. Believe it or not it does still work this way in a lot of rural places in america.

edit on 8-9-2012 by Tardacus because: (no reason given)


Very well put. Us country folk trade back and forth all the time. And we always check out the auctions at the local livestock exchange for the things we need around the farm. It deffinitely pays to be resourcful.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:40 PM
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reply to post by HangTheTraitors
 
Even at the height of the great depression, the poor masses spent a nickel on movies. If you work for your own food, and don't have the extra money, you want chairs that can withstand the outside environment, so yes, when you have some spare excess, you will buy the luxury item. Damned shame that the chair is a luxury item, in this situation, but that's how it works.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by randomtangentsrme
 


It depends on the area of the country, and the expectations on quality. In this area, if you paint a Fleur de Lis on the stool, you can probably get a good half your asking price more for it. Seriously.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:22 PM
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reply to post by Reflection
 


Thanks for your post. I hope you don't mind I want to pick on your post a little bit. It is not personal toward you but you illustrate some thinking that keeps the majority of people from pulling the trigger on good ideas IMO.


I definitely appreciate the gesture. And there are definite solutions in DIY, but as I see it there are 3 enormous obstacles. 


Right out of the gate your thinking swings to the negative. You immediately start the conversation with yourself as to why it won't work. Rather then looking for ways to overcome them or if they are even real.

This does not mean you ignore the obstacles it's a matter of perspective. Your perspective seems to be coming from the "it can't be done" mindset.

The positive side to approaching obstacles is to say to yourself these appear to be problems how can I overcome them and are they real or just perceived?


1. People don't care. They would rather buy cheap and convenient than support local, usually more expensive, producers. Basically the Walmart consumers, which make up the vast majority. Clearly they don't care because they would never even think about looking at that tag on that pair of jeans to see where it was made. 


Ok this is really just an over generalization. Yes there are a lot of people who don't care and of the wallymart mindset. First question to ask is if this is your target market. The answer is obviously no.

When you say "people don't care" that is a pretty blanket statement so lets get more specific "How many people don't care"? All 300 million plus in the country? Doubtful so how many of them do you need to sell to to get where you want to be?

Lets take the guy who is the top seller on the website Etsy as a case study. He sells beads and supplies to craft makers and has made over 190 thousand sales over 5 years on Etsy. This does not include off line sales which I do not know if he does or not but I suspect he does some off line sales also. If he averages about $7 per sale that is around $1.3 million in sales over 5 years that comes to about $250 thousand a year in gross sales. 190 thousand divided by 5 years is $38 thousand sales a year. That is roughly .00012 of a percent of the population per year that he sells to to pull that kind of money.

That puts things in perspective doesn't it? Your target is not "people" in general it is a very tiny fraction of people who are not of the wallymart mindset. Looking at those numbers the sky is the limit! Most people would be estrmely happy with a fraction of that in gross sales. Now that we see that obstacle is not real we must find our target market which requires some research and some trial and error.

You see how perspective makes a difference? Instead of accepting the false idea that "people do not care" and giving up we approached it from positive mindset of what does it take to make this work.



2. Big business owns the majority of the land and resources needed to produce things. 


Again do they really. Lets do some critical thinking and a little research (and I wrote this line before I did any because I do not accept it.) First of all what is it you want to do and how much land do you really need? If you want to go into some large scale farming of course you need large tracts of land. But most people have enough land where the live to do any number of things. Especially if it can be done in the kitchen, garage, shop, or even home office. Resources? Again what do you need? The Top seller on Etsy sell beads and craft supplies so he buys the majority of them from some one else and he may make some himself. By the way some might think yeah but Etsy is just crafts and there is not a big market for that. Well I am sure he would beg to differ with you and just look on there there are some amazing craftsmen on there. He used the principle found in selling shovels to minors.

After doing a little research it is hard to find what percentage of land is owned by the average joe vs corporation and government etc. But it appears the they own about 30% so that leaves us 70%. D do we really need to spend more time on this or can we use a little logic here?

First there are millions of acres of land for sale at any given time so it is highly doubtful that there is not enough to go around. Humans only use about 30 percent of the land mass anyway.

When you say resources this is a blanket statement. The real question is what resources do you need and how can you get them? Do you need to own the land that those raw resources come from or can you buy them from who ever does at reasonable cost? I make Beehives with pine lumber but I do not own any tracts of timber land. I buy it from the lumber yard. There are a lot of people who make a living on just a few acres or even a city lot by doing something on their few acres, backyard, garage, shop, kitchen, or office. So I do not think it is worth spending time on this as it really is not a valid obstacle.


3. Big business owns the majority of the expensive, state of the art technology that enables them to produce said resources more efficiently and cheaply, making it very difficult for small business to compete. 


This is another blanket statement and just reinforces the defeatist mindset and is not true. Small business is still the backbone of the economy not big business. What is it you want to do? Name something you think you need in a small business that a small business cannot do or get done at a reasonable cost? There is a growing market for quality products. There will always be the wallymart mindset but as I show above you just need to learn to target a growingyour market.

We can do this people! We just need to stop looking for excuses and blaming big business etc. Look in any city in America and the majority70% of businesses are small businesses not big.


All that said, there is an organization that I'm very fond of. They are trying to tackle the problem I listed as #2. The technology. They're called Open Source Ecology. opensourceecology.org 


Good glad to see you moving to the positive side here. I am familiar with these folks. What if these folks that started this movement listed the same things you did in your post and decided there was nothing they could do and gave up? Instead the took the positive route and started looking for ways to overcome any adversity and move forward with their goals.


Considering so much of the edge that big business has regarding technology is based on intellectual property (patents, copyrights, trade secrets, etc.) they are using the idea of open source software and applying it to real physical machines like tractors, power cubes, earth brick press, CNC machines and many others.. basically machines that humans use today to live a high-tech, high quality life. 

It's a very difficult goal, but I think they are the most ambitious group out there that are trying to revolutionize the economy using DIY values!


And you can do the same with what ever your desires are. Stop blaming everyone else folks and letting the negative thoughts of how hard it is and why it won't work etc. dominate your thought process and start looking for ways to move forward. Take control of your mind and thus your life!

Ok I'll get off my soap box now and get back to work on my goals. I hope someone was helped by anything I said and the many other great posters here including Reflection and want to thank him for being a good sport. I'll leave you with this thought.

"Every adversity has within it the seed of an equivalent or a greater benefit!" Napoleon Hill


edit on 8-9-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:34 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Thank you for tackling that, hawkiye.

I think the problem is mostly due to negative conditioning ("You have nothing to offer!") and a lack of good PR for the idea. I think if we get the word out, it'll catch on like wildfire. Cause we're humans, and we make stuff.

It's what we do.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 02:36 PM
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Originally posted by Snoopy1978
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Hah! I lied, I really didnt set up a lemonade stand.

Now what?


Yeah I had pretty much figured that because you had already found an excuse to why it would not work. Now what? Get off your ass and start looking for ways to make something work. You might be surprised at what pops into your head when you come over to the positive side.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 05:03 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


Just because I'm acknowledging the obstacles doesn't mean I have a defeatist attitude. It just means I'm being a realist. I never implied that things, or more importantly people, can't change. Just by using the word "obstacle" I'm implying that its something that needs to be overcome. That IS being positive.

I think all of the DIY ideas are great and there are many that could improve their lives with it on some level. I'm just more concerned about large scale economic and ecological change, because everything and everyone is connected whether they want to be or not. And if society and/or the global ecosystem collapses while I'm building my state of the art Earthship, I'm still going down with the actual Earth ship.

You mentioned that humans own 30% of the land base. Well, that seems like a ton for one species, especially considering the way we treat it. Which is again more evidence that humans are absolutely having an effect on the planet.

Now that being said, social and environmental change could arise from a grass roots movement like DIY, but I don't know if there is enough time for that. I just think we're gonna have to do a lot more than that if we want to avoid some level of social and environmental collapse.

I'm not being pessimistic. I'm just acknowledging the problems. You have to do that before you can find a solution. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with me that we are on the verge of collapse, but that's a whole other topic.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by Reflection
reply to post by hawkiye
 


Just because I'm acknowledging the obstacles doesn't mean I have a defeatist attitude. It just means I'm being a realist. I never implied that things, or more importantly people, can't change. Just by using the word "obstacle" I'm implying that its something that needs to be overcome. That IS being positive.

I think all of the DIY ideas are great and there are many that could improve their lives with it on some level. I'm just more concerned about large scale economic and ecological change, because everything and everyone is connected whether they want to be or not. And if society and/or the global ecosystem collapses while I'm building my state of the art Earthship, I'm still going down with the actual Earth ship.

You mentioned that humans own 30% of the land base. Well, that seems like a ton for one species, especially considering the way we treat it. Which is again more evidence that humans are absolutely having an effect on the planet.

Now that being said, social and environmental change could arise from a grass roots movement like DIY, but I don't know if there is enough time for that. I just think we're gonna have to do a lot more than that if we want to avoid some level of social and environmental collapse.

I'm not being pessimistic. I'm just acknowledging the problems. You have to do that before you can find a solution. Of course, not everyone is going to agree with me that we are on the verge of collapse, but that's a whole other topic.


Ha ha well so much for assuming you would not be upset at me using your post as the test case. You say your not being pessimistic but you just listed several reasons on why it so hard and your fear of collapse etc.. And you again l blanket label people by saying they can change. I am telling you people do not need to change for you to do what you want. Most people never change you need to simply target the right people to do what you want to do.

The only things you got out of my post were negative like the 30% of land we use and then point out how it is abused. Then you point out your fear of impending collapse and will there be enough change in time to avert it etc. You are not being positive even though you think you are. You have offered no solutions. What are you doing about it besides sitting there paralyzed with fear of collapse? Even if collapse is on the verge what have you got to do with your time? Might as well try and move forward by changing yourself and inspire others by your actions instead of complaining.

DWELLING ON THE OBSTACLES IS NOT BEING POSITIVE! SEEKING AND DWELLING ON THE SOLUTIONS IS BEING POSITIVE!

You want to change the world theN change yourself and get off your ass and go to work set some goals and make a decision to go after what you want and never quit till it is accomplished! If enough individuals change themselves then others will see their example and it will reach a tipping point. Stop worrying about the whole World and be the change you want to see!

I am sure this post will piss you off too but again. I am using it as a spring board to give others the idea so even if you don't like it nothing personal and thanks anyways for being the test case.


edit on 8-9-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 05:24 PM
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ATS double tap
edit on 8-9-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 06:23 PM
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reply to post by hawkiye
 


How was I getting upset?

If anything, you are the one being emotional, getting personal and asking what I am doing to be the change and making assumptions about what I do personally. Getting personal is completely unnecessary in this forum. Besides I could tell you I made philanthropist of the year at my non denominational church and it could be complete BS, which it would be. It's pointless what any of us say on here about ourselves, there's no way to prove it.. Or usually no way.

The only thing that is relevant is the information I present. Like solutions like Open Source Ecology. But even the guys from OSE would be the first to tell you about how hard the obstacles they are dealing with are and they've barely scratched the surface. Those guys have a very healthy mix of optimism and pessimism. And a lot of their pessimism is because they're trying to do BIG THINGS! They aren't just looking out for number 1 and hoping to inspire a few people. They are looking to revolutionize the game. We need a lot more of them. Not people just trying to get off the grid and start an ecovillage. We need big solutions right now. If you think we have all the time in the world to wait for a grass roots movement to gradually catch on over time, fine. We can agree to disagree. But I hope you used critical thinking to come to that conclusion and not just happy feelings.

And one other thing, when you say "stop worrying about the world", I think that's something too many of us don't do enough of!



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 07:09 PM
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reply to post by Reflection
 



How was I getting upset? 

If anything, you are the one being emotional, getting personal and asking what I am doing to be the change and making assumptions about what I do personally. Getting personal is completely unnecessary in this forum.


Ha ha it's pretty obvious you are upset by how defensive you are my friend. I am analyzing where your focus is by the thoughts in your post nothing personal about that. They are like most people mostly negative. I am sorry you don't like hearing that but it is the truth. I have done the same things for many years I am in the process of changing my thought process from that sort of thinking. I could pick any number of posts here and do the same thing for most of them are focused on the negative.

I am just trying to contribute to this thread and its excellent theme of moving forward taking control of your life and stop complaining and blaming everyone and everything else.


The only thing that is relevant is the information I present. Like solutions like Open Source Ecology. But even the guys from OSE would be the first to tell you about how hard the obstacles they are dealing with are and they've barely scratched the surface. Those guys have a very healthy mix of optimism and pessimism. And a lot of their pessimism is because they're trying to do BIG THINGS! They aren't just looking out for number 1 and hoping to inspire a few people. They are looking to revolutionize the game


Well if you can't inspire a few people how do you expect to inspire enough to change the game? You are trying to justify your lack of accomplishment and or theirs by claiming they are trying to do big things so it's makes it really hard. Big things are usually accomplished by doing a lot of little things! Trying to make a big change is the cart before the horse. Most seemingly big change took many years of toil to get to the point were it seemed to change over night. And that toil is inspiring a few people at first a few at a time. Really this is just another excuse to not move forward and do what you can now. You can't change the game unless you change yourself anf a few others first. Complaining does not move you forward it takes your focus off of moving forward and moves you backward dwelling on the set backs and failures.


We need a lot more of them. Not people just trying to get off the grid and start an ecovillage. We need big solutions right now. If you think we have all the time in the world to wait for a grass roots movement to gradually catch on over time, fine. We can agree to disagree. But I hope you used critical thinking to come to that conclusion and not just happy feelings.


So why are you not one of them? It doesn't matter how much time we have it is what it is and worrying about how much time we have is just another excuse to do nothing. If things collapse they will collapse what have you got to do with yourself in the meantime? Get off your ass and get to work on accomplishing something you desire. You focus is on all the negative what ifs, what if we don't have enough time, enough people, a solution in time, it very hard etc. etc. When the focus should be making things happen, set a date for things to change and work furiously toward it. if you do that and stop worrying about all the what ifs, how hard it is and eminent collapse your mind will come up with answers to all of those things that is the power of mind!

If you plant nothing in the garden and then complain about all the weeds that spring up in it but do nothing then all you will ever have is weeds! Your mind is the same way. if you cultivate seeds of success action and accomplishment and tend them regularly then you will get success action and accomplishment! Everything starts with your thoughts. The guys over at OST ideas started with thoughts.

If you think that is just happy thoughts like "The Secret" BS then you must ask yourself why you are where you are in life and not where you want to be. There is a difference between wishing for things and hoping they just fall out of the sky into your lap rather then focusing your mind to accomplish what ever ends you desire.


And one other thing, when you say "stop worrying about the world", I think that's something too many of us don't do enough of!


You can worry in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up faster!

I have said all I am going to say to you on this for now as I do not want to derail this thread from its excellent theme. I hope somebody has gotten something out of my posts...


edit on 8-9-2012 by hawkiye because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by Eidolon23
 


this is very true, bartering can surely help. i also like how you used the phrase "kick it old school" lol.



posted on Sep, 8 2012 @ 07:59 PM
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I really like this idea.. I think if people applied as much time to learning a valuable skill or trade as they do arguing over who's right about what, they might just be better off in the end.





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