Response to the common skeptic's argument that interstellar travel is inherently unfeasible.

Originally posted by Imtor
'UFO believers'...

some will never learn the difference between thinking logically and being objective and being a 'BELIEVER' ...

You would be describing yourself then?

Originally posted by Imtor
Who? I can't give specific names, I've seen in documentaries, in other interviews, a lot here on ATS, this 'Aliens cannot travel so far...'

SO there are such who make such claims and I am against those.

Yet, despite all those people making that supposed claim, you cannot provide a single example.

Originally posted by Imtor
Conspiracy theories, theories and clasified data ----> Movies (they take the ideas from such stories)--->Science tries to create things seen in movies or again some theories

The idea science relies exclusively on movies for ideas is laughable.

reply to post by Diablos


Von Neumann robots + corrupted data = Borg

reply to post by WingedBull


I've seen and heard the statement too. Put these words "too immense distances aliens visit earth" into Google and you'll find this is a common rebuttal.

we can't really discuss this without knowing how long it takes to get here. are they bending space and getting here in a thousand years ? than you could breed your pilots on board the ship

does it take a million years ? thats more problematic, lol

I think any ship that gets here is a probe, and the pilots are droids or synthetics or whatever you like

.02

There's so much about our science that is incomplete, for so many reasons. Some discoveries have been suppressed intentionally, some things may just be forever beyond the scope of our understanding, I could not say without any amount of conviction that interstellar travel cannot be done. I am not qualified to speak to the feasibility of humans acquiring that ability but my incomplete knowledge tells me that some other inhabitants of the universe may exist and could have done it. My personal hope is that humans do not ever spread beyond the Earth, however.

Just a thought to throw in the mix, as it's been voiced, or hinted at in previous similar arguments, but, something to consider regarding evolution ...

From an evolutionary standpoint, at least from what we can extrapolate from our own experiences with the life we have on earth - animals with the highest order of intelligence are predators or at least omnivores.
This can be seen in dolphins, squid, octopus, dogs, and, of course, man, as well as some other animals.
Prey, or food animals typically only need be smarter than the food they eat (usually plants), and smart enough to run away.
There are exceptions with animals like the horse and elephant, but, the smarter animals tend to be predators, or at least omnivores.

While a pure predator/prey relationship evolutionary path in xenosociological circles is argued too specialized for advanced intelligence, we still have a number of scientists like Steven Hawking making statements that contact with extraterrestrials could very well be quite dangerous.

This danger, however, at least in looking at our own civilization, could this dangerous aggression be a recipe for civilizational suicide?

Perhaps the very evolutionary path that leads to advanced intelligence is self regulating in its adaptation, mutation, and selection for not only creativity and imagination, but, also insanity.
The smarter we get, the more clever we become at killing each other.

In that respect, we don't seem too far removed from the killing thirst we had thousands of years ago.

Perhaps, being smart is a direct path to civilizational suicide?

We don't see anyone else in the universe because everyone else, or at least most of them killed themselves off? It's a thought.

Still, If only one intelligent advanced civilization were to survive past such suicidal pursuits as our own civilization and make it to the stars, we should certainly expect to see some sign of their explorations eventually in the course of our own explorations, especially where there could be millions of years of expansion, growth, and colonization to leave traces of passing in abandoned structures, or even just the signature scars of industry and litter.

It'd certainly be nice to have a direct contact and social exchange, but, even a scrap of definitive proof that we're not alone would be nice.

reply to post by Nanocyte

Interstellar Travel can be achieved by having an understanding of the UNIFIED FIELD THEORY. Once you understand this...you would be capable of FOLDING SPACE OR WARPING SPACE.

Thus you a Traveling without Moving. In a One Dimensional state...all points of Space/Time are the SAME POINT. If you can generate a Singularity you could Travel to any point in a One Dimensional State thus ZERO TIME LOSS.
This is achieved by Generating a Large amount of Energy to represent Mass which in of itself creates Gravity.

This would be a form of Gravitic Drive and it is Math possible...we just are no where near that level of tech.
Split Infinity

reply to post by Druscilla


No, you are not very correct. While some producers do make their own stories, lot's of the SCI FI movies and shows come from conspiracies and stories. A lot of movies are based on that.. the number would be endless but... conspiracies exist since the 80s or earlier, stories of Reptilians too - V, TMNT, endless other have the idea of creatures from such stories. The Martians attack paranoia on the radio from the 20th century is certain to have driven the creation of movies. War of the worlds and such... it all started around science and naturally around conspiracies...

Movies are indeed inspired by conspiracies, science and such

reply to post by WingedBull

Originally posted by WingedBull
You would be describing yourself then?

I am right in the middle, where there is no place for ignorant PSEUDOskeptics like you or believers like some posters of ridiculous threads and where all were supposed to be.

Originally posted by Imtor
Yet, despite all those people making that supposed claim, you cannot provide a single example.

Why should I bother? It's a FACT already. I am not saying revolving around existing technology, I am saying a lot of scientists cannot accept quite different science they never imagined can exist.. with things being a lot different or advanced than they thought, even close to sci fi to be come reality - some say NO without knowing what else can be discovered - soo UNscientific...

The idea science relies exclusively on movies for ideas is laughable.

Laughable is your comment and the way you generalize it to make my point look bad. I never said all technology is created from movies, I am saying that a lot of science in the process of discoveries is trying to recreate things that only existed in movies - from daily consumer needs to more. Is this still laughable? If you have no clue about it, it still is, I know. See Japan - robots, things that were only in movies decades ago... One day spaceships could replicate something from movies...

Originally posted by ishum
reply to post by Tardacus

 

i have an idea. it'll be a bit out there for some but........

some "researchers" claim that et's been here before, ok. but how did they find us?
well some of those "researcher" think there was a high tec civilization on this earth at one time and that they had a solarsystem wide(or systemS) war. what if theyre visiting us now because the previous hightec civilization was actually traveling to other systems. maybe had trade routes and even treaties. then the war broke out destroying it or setting back the the civilization back to the stone age. maybe it was such a terrible war that other systems were set back too.some may have recovered faster or wasn't involved and visiting to see how life here is managing.

maybe atlantis, maybe further back. heck maybe even dinos. we know realy know very little about them and they were around for 100s of milions of years.

so short form theyre here cuz they knew we were here from previous indiginous cantact.
just a thought of had.

didnt mention specific "researchers" to avoid derailing from accusations that theyre hoaxers and frauds.


[again english teachers need not read.]

which brings us back to where we started.how did they find this high tech ancient civilization of ours?
The same situation still exists, that the chances of randomly being at the right place at the right time somewhere in the universe to find other intelligent life, are so high as to be almost impossible.

reply to post by Tardacus


Well seeing you haven't been a member long, people on here can name many races on nearby star systems they will tell you a name for the race, the name of their system (which is usually what we call it ) what kind of craft they have etc, it is all in their heads of course!!!

Originally posted by Lucas73
Von Neumann robots + corrupted data = Borg

They wouldn't even have to be corrupt for a Von Neumann machine to be dangerous. Only poorly programmed.

One possibility that seems to be rarely discussed in UFO circles, perhaps because it is not as flashy as a face-to-face meeting with aliens, are Bleakwell probes. Thoughts, anyone?

Linear high speed interstellar travel
in our familiar 3 dimensional space is most likely a definite no for anyone.
Linear travel would be confined to interplanetary commuting.
To travel stellar distances,
a different approach would be needed
using technology that is most definitely not in the public domain,
if it exists at all for humans despite what Ben Rich said.
For aliens,
literally anything is possible given sufficient time,
and with the sheer immensity of stars out there
if the problem can be cracked
I'm sure it has been by now.
Why do we not see them?
Simple, they don't want to be seen.
Humanity as it is,
not ready to play with the big boys.
Because, if WE were able to travel among the stars,
we cease being a problem to ourselves
and become a problem for them.
They are not going to give us the smarts to do this,
not just like that.
Terms and conditions will apply.

reply to post by WingedBull

Originally posted by WingedBull

If our understanding of the universe is correct, then others will find it to be correct as well. The laws that govern the universe are, well...universal.........

That is a big assumption which is supported only by several IF's

Here are a couple more IF's:
Even if what we believe to be true, is in fact true in this area, that does not definitely prove that it is true everywhere else.

Originally posted by WingedBull

Perhaps to a person with a poor understanding of how science works. Nothing is based on someone's simple say-so but must stand up to rigorous, repeatable testing.

My point exactly. Our science is based on tests that have been conducted on this one tiny lil blue dot, and have not been conducted elsewhere within this Universe. You are claiming that what we know is 'Universal', without having any evidence to back up such a claim.

Originally posted by WingedBull

Question is, do you have evidence showing that the constants of our universe are not in fact constants? If so, there are plenty of scientists waiting to talk to you. And a Nobel prize may be in your future...

I said only that it is possible that the Laws of Physics which we believe to be true, do not hold true within the entire Universe.

A possibility. That is all.

After all, the Universe is kind of a big place.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles

I said only that it is possible that the Laws of Physics which we believe to be true, do not hold true within the entire Universe.

A possibility. That is all.

After all, the Universe is kind of a big place.

It certainly is but to the best of our knowledge the laws of physics apply to the entire universe. This is not based on speculation but on observation of distant galaxies and so on. So far all observations seem to validate our understanding of basic physics. Maybe other universes (if they exist) are different but that is pure speculation.

I didn't read past page one but, the bigger issues in inter-stellar travel would be:

• Inertia. The effects of inertia (People report instant change of direction in UFO sightings) on the alien's biology.
• Assuming we are talking about living pilots, the effects of G-force.
• Assuming the speed of light is not a barrier for ET, space debris. The smallest space rock hitting your ship at speeds just nearing the speed of light would be catastrophic.
• Assuming they are using technology to bend space-time to "jump" across large distances....the energy needed for this is colossal, regardless of the tech these aliens have. Also, the energy used for this and the bending of time-space itself would have an immediate gravitational effect on all surrounding matter. Why hasn't this been detected?

There are many other reasons why traveling in distances of light-years is a problem. The reason we know that the laws of physics apply universally, is because we can/have observed phenomenon and have accurately predicted outcomes using the same math. Whether its galaxies in our own Milky Way or others in the far distance....we can predict movement, orbits and behavior all using the same math.

I'm not saying it isn't possible....I'm saying that if it were happening near here...it would be difficult to keep quiet.

Originally posted by Lucas73
reply to post by Diablos

 

Von Neumann robots + corrupted data = Borg

Very good point. In fact the possibility of undesirable mutations might be motivation to make the creation, possession and use of self-replicating robots to be a galactic crime, Weapons of Civilizational Destruction.

You have to think more biologically, not mechanically. Evolutionary forces would favor robots which were aggressively self-replicating and expansionist and interested in their own needs and not the ones which expended resources satisfying the desires of their creators.

Creating such a race is creating a potentially dangerous galactic rival.

Originally posted by Unidentified_Objective
I didn't read past page one but, the bigger issues in inter-stellar travel would be:

• Inertia. The effects of inertia (People report instant change of direction in UFO sightings) on the alien's biology.
• Assuming we are talking about living pilots, the effects of G-force.
• Assuming the speed of light is not a barrier for ET, space debris. The smallest space rock hitting your ship at speeds just nearing the speed of light would be catastrophic.
• Assuming they are using technology to bend space-time to "jump" across large distances....the energy needed for this is colossal, regardless of the tech these aliens have.

Presumably locally altering gravitation should also encompass inertia so that there would not be inertial "g-forces" inside the craft. And presumably the craft would be travelling and much less than c in its own local reference frame, but the problem of even interstellar dust would be a major issue.

This is all hypothetical based on some as yet totally undiscovered coupling to gravitation which is engineerable, and presumably that implies a much much lower energy/mass density needed than the Einstein equation would indicate.

Also, the energy used for this and the bending of time-space itself would have an immediate gravitational effect on all surrounding matter. Why hasn't this been detected?

The electromagnetic effects and optical effects could be consequences of gravitational lensing and strong local metric variations. It's possible that the instantaneous change in direction is not actually so in the craft's local reference frame, it is only the effect of time-dependent gravitational lensing which makes it appear to be so for an observer like a human looking in essentially Euclidean space-time. We have no intuition whatsoever about the effects of sharp, and nearby metric variations, since we have no idea how to make one, and there is no known natural process which makes one.

Does warp drive emit gravitational radiation? WHo knows, since we don't have a clue how it would work anyway.

There are many other reasons why traveling in distances of light-years is a problem. The reason we know that the laws of physics apply universally, is because we can/have observed phenomenon and have accurately predicted outcomes using the same math. Whether its galaxies in our own Milky Way or others in the far distance....we can predict movement, orbits and behavior all using the same math.

I'm not saying it isn't possible....I'm saying that if it were happening near here...it would be difficult to keep quiet.

I agree that our current understanding of physics leaves very little room for powerful new technology like that.

If there were some huge missing hole in our understanding of the laws of physics (which this would imply) shouldn't we have seen some significant experimental consequences so far?

Even the most extreme ones known to science today (nuclear fission)and exotic particle production) were observed in nature, one in an African mine and the other from high-energy cosmic rays.

Where is the strong coupling to gravitation that we've missed?

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by Nanocyte

 

Interstellar Travel can be achieved by having an understanding of the UNIFIED FIELD THEORY. Once you understand this...you would be capable of FOLDING SPACE OR WARPING SPACE.

No, we also need experimental configurations and specific physical knowledge of the particle couplings which cause this.

We don't have any experimental or observational evidence for a macroscopic field theory other than Einstein plus Maxwell.

Think of the analogy to nuclear fission. People say that it came out of E=mc^2. That isn't true at all. What matters is the specific and very unexpected experimental fact that certain large nuclei have spontaneous fission and emit some of their binding energy in the velocity of their split nuclei and then also emit additional neutrons.

It is specific knowledge about detailed particle properties of this kind of nucleus in this kind of conditions. E=mc^2 only tells you how to do the accounting in the end, but reveals none of the useful physics. Albert Einstein is not the father of the nuclear bomb. Enrico Fermi is.

Same thing with a hypothetical warp drive. We need specific experimentally accessible details of "what thing does what when interacting with what other thing."

Thus you a Traveling without Moving. In a One Dimensional state...all points of Space/Time are the SAME POINT. If you can generate a Singularity you could Travel to any point in a One Dimensional State thus ZERO TIME LOSS.
This is achieved by Generating a Large amount of Energy to represent Mass which in of itself creates Gravity.

This would be a form of Gravitic Drive and it is Math possible...we just are no where near that level of tech.
Split Infinity

Problem is, everywhere we want to go isn't in a singularity. And we sure as heck wouldn't want to go remotely near one.

Originally posted by CaptChaos
Judging by the entire history of the world, everything that all these "scientists" think they know right now is completely wrong. Everything in the past that was thought to be known has turned out to be wrong. Thinking that everyone was always wrong in the past, but NOW we know EVERYTHING is just ridiculous.

No, but we know how to explain, quantitatively, things that nobody had any idea how to explain before, and the consequences of that understanding results in technology that nobody had anything before.

Knowing the periodic table and facts about atomic nature of the planet is qualitatively different from not knowing, just as knowing calculus is qualitatively different from not knowing.

Physics from 1700 to today is completely different from the profound ignorance of the nature of the universe from the dawn of history until then.

I'd also be willing to say that the calculations of the distance to the stars will also turn out to be wrong. They may be much closer than we think they are.

Not a chance. We have tremendously successful interlocking evidence for the mass/luminosity/distance to stars.

Besides, distances to near stars have been measured with parallax which takes nothing but geometry.

Originally posted by BrokenCirclesThat is a big assumption which is supported only by several IF's

Actually, it is not a big assumption at all. In fact, to the best of our knowledge, it is the truth. As Cripmeister pointed out, by what we can see in the observable, whether it be here or in far-off galaxies, the rules that apply to this part of the universe apply everywhere.

Originally posted by BrokenCircles
You are claiming that what we know is 'Universal', without having any evidence to back up such a claim.

Not simply this pale dot but (again) as Cripmeister pointed out, what we have observed here also holds true for the observable universe. So yes, despite your claims, there is plenty of evidence to support my statements.

As, I did not say what we know is "universal" (this is yet another attempt to twist what I said as saying our knowledge is perfect and definitive), but rather if what we believe to be true is in fact true, then other cultures will find it to be true as well.

Originally posted by WingedBull
I said only that it is possible that the Laws of Physics which we believe to be true, do not hold true within the entire Universe.

Sure, it is possible. But so far, nothing of the sort has been observed. Therefore, there is no evidence, thus far, to support the idea that physics changes based on where you are in the universe.

There is a gross leap of logic taking place in this discussion...that because a hypothetical, heretofore unimagined sort of physics or propulsion system may exist, therefore aliens must be visiting the Earth. The logic just does not follow.

But beyond that, look at the logic of what you are arguing insofar as the laws of the universe not being the same everywhere. Even if that were the case, so what? Once aliens reached this part of the universe, our laws would be in play and whatever laws are true in their part of the universe are moot. They will be just as hobbled by our laws as we are.