Compassion, Apathy, and Control....

Recently, I saw an old thread and it was about apathy. Of course, since many people are programmed to only see apathy in negativity it had many negative comments, and when I tried to give a positive spin on things, people ignored the thread...

This happened on The Philosophy and Metaphysics section, where people are supposed to be admitting their crazy views for other people to hear and discuss - but unfortunately, people only want to hear the same exact messages that are always told, "we are one", "we are love", blah, blah, blah...

What if, Compassion leads to attachment of this physical existence? What if Compassion is one of the things that chains you to the world and causes your soul to suffer and to keep coming back here?

If we are all light and will return to light, why care at all? Isn't knowing that they'll return one day enough, instead of trying to make them happy in this physical existence where desire, longing, and suffering exists?

What if we really do live in a backwards world where compassion is taught as beneficial instead of apathy?

Think about how Compassion has been abused. Worrying about another's feelings, you either don't want to disappoint the person or you fear judgment so you do what they say - which can lead to people who are sick with a strong desire for power to control you...

We just want people to like us - we just want to fit in - we just want them to be happy and avoid conflict - so we do what is 'normal' even if it is counter-intuitive (or doesn't make sense)... We can stay enslaved in this matrix by compassion - by caring that people would be sad that we are free and they aren't or trying to free everyone and therefore falling back into the trap.

Then, when normal people are suffering, people are scared to speak out...

Now, some would say "not having compassion is selfish" or "egotistical"... well ...

what if you also had apathy for yourself? You don't really care - but you continue to live because your body instinctively goes for the food when hungry or to the water when thirsty or to sleep when tired?

You don't care but are just along for the ride...

What if this is the only way to detach from "desire" - "longing"?

What do you think about all of these things I''ve just said?

reply to post by arpgme


Maybe trying to avoid suffering by not being compassionate adds to attachment? Gives strength to the delusion of a painful finite existence. Which isn't Reality.

What we really need to detach from is delusion. That is the only way to embrace and become what is true. Compassion is only merited if it is real. It can't be a strategy to avoid attachment. If you are suffering have compassion for yourself. Accept the real part of the suffering in an honest way. If you see suffering outside yourself that is real then compassion would be the natural way to relate to it.

reply to post by arpgme


I've thought this same thing so many times but it's impossible to explain it to the majority. Thank you for bringing it up again, although most won't open up to it as usual. The majority of people are locked hopelessly in duality, polarities and extremes.

As you touched on...even the crowd that exclaims detachment refuses to entertain the possibility that compassion does in fact lead to further attachment rather than detachment. They think apathy is the way of the lost rather than pondering the possibility that apathy is the way to the truth. I'm not saying it is, I'm saying it's worth considering.

S&F

Originally posted by rwfresh
reply to post by arpgme

 

Maybe trying to avoid suffering by not being compassionate adds to attachment? Gives strength to the delusion of a painful finite existence. Which isn't Reality.]

I never suggested not being compassionate to avoid suffering. I said this is what people do. What I was suggesting is not being compassionate for the sake of detachment from this physical world...

What are you any way? Can you "watch" your own existence come and go? If it can leave - then it is not you.

Thoughts come and go...
Emotions come and go...
The body comes and go... (cells and changes)

You are not the physical - you are observing physical - even "spirit" is still a form of physical - it is just a lighter form (light) with more freedom than than the really physical material world...

Any place with "desire" whether it is able to be fulfilled or not - is not the highest heaven (state of being)- I can feel that intuitively now. The highest heaven (state of being) would probably just be "existence" - not compassion but just pure existence -apathy/free ( without any attachments positive or negative - love, compassion, hate, revenge, etc.)...

When you realize and remember you are enlightened already, all of these symptoms of the mind dissolve. What more can be said right now, just keep moving in the direction you are and everything is going to work out.

I like your growing awareness.

What this world needs is less apathy and more empathy, compassion.

This crazy notion that compassion is the root of this planet's problems is a fallacy. Avarice, corruption, manipulation, treachery, dishonesty, disloyalty, infidelity... Those are the true problems that we face.

Now, it is true that in order to full appreciate the positive aspects of life, we must have a pinch of distress. Consider this akin to baking cookies. You need that pinch of salt to make the sweet palatable.

If we lose our compassion to a amorality, then we have lost our humanity -- and that would truly be a saddening thought.

Originally posted by maria_stardust
What this world needs is less apathy and more empathy, compassion.

This crazy notion that compassion is the root of this planet's problems is a fallacy. Avarice, corruption, manipulation, treachery, dishonesty, disloyalty, infidelity... Those are the true problems that we face.

avarice - having a DESIRE for money/riches
corruption - destruction because of the DESIRE for control/power
manipulation - walking over people for your DESIRE in this physical world
treachery - the DESIRE of having someone always act as you wish
dishonesty - CARING (Compassion) about what others think of you
disloyalty - same as treachery
infidelity - same as treachery


All of these problems stem from the Attachment of The Physical...


Love (Compassion), Revenge, Envy, Desire... all of these things contribute to being attached to the physical world...

Originally posted by maria_stardust
If we lose our compassion to a amorality, then we have lost our humanity -- and that would truly be a saddening thought.

Thoughts are not "sad" - "sadness" is a response to a thought.

It's impossible for a human to lose "humanity", unless "humanity" is defined as something not consistent with humans - in which case it wouldn't be "humanity" anyway...

reply to post by arpgme


So the notion of living in an amoral vaccum without care is a better alternative?

I disagree.

Originally posted by antar
When you realize and remember you are enlightened already, all of these symptoms of the mind dissolve. What more can be said right now, just keep moving in the direction you are and everything is going to work out.

I like your growing awareness.

Well said!

Originally posted by maria_stardust
What this world needs is less apathy and more empathy, compassion.

This crazy notion that compassion is the root of this planet's problems is a fallacy. Avarice, corruption, manipulation, treachery, dishonesty, disloyalty, infidelity... Those are the true problems that we face.

Now, it is true that in order to full appreciate the positive aspects of life, we must have a pinch of distress. Consider this akin to baking cookies. You need that pinch of salt to make the sweet palatable.

If we lose our compassion to a amorality, then we have lost our humanity -- and that would truly be a saddening thought.

Very true and nicely put.

I always think it's beneficial to entertain every side of every idea in order to work toward a complete understanding which is why I applaud the OP's proposition. I have have come across the same questions he prupossed on my own...that isn't to say those are my beliefs, only that I have asked the same questions whilst questioning everything. It's not a good idea to accept anything as it is, everything deserves the round about.

I do, however, agree with every word you just wrote.

reply to post by maria_stardust


A "better" alternative to what?

You speak as if there is a "goal" and there is none - unless you create one...

By being apathetic you detach you realize your true nature. You are NOT your emotions or thoughts... those come and go...

reply to post by arpgme


By being apathetic, we in turn become amoral. Living in a personal vacuum sans conscience is to disregard that which sets us apart from the inhumane. By denying the best of our essential nature -- our inherent goodness -- we would be no better than an unfeeling clod of dirt.

How is personal detachment any form of enlightenment?

Now, some would say "not having compassion is selfish" or "egotistical"... well ...

what if you also had apathy for yourself? You don't really care - but you continue to live because your body instinctively goes for the food when hungry or to the water when thirsty or to sleep when tired?

You don't care but are just along for the ride...

What if this is the only way to detach from "desire" - "longing"?

What do you think about all of these things I''ve just said?

reply to post by arpgme


Detachment and apathy are two different things. The ability to detach is a strong survival mechanism in every repsect and manner of its implementation. The detached warrior is more lethal in application to the new aged enigmatic secular warrior. The later still care about what others are thinking of them constantly. The detached does give a damn.

Originally posted by maria_stardust
reply to post by arpgme

 

By being apathetic, we in turn become amoral. Living in a personal vacuum sans conscience is to disregard that which sets us apart from the inhumane. By denying the best of our essential nature -- our inherent goodness -- we would be no better than an unfeeling clod of dirt.

What do you mean the "best" of our essential nature? And what do you mean no "better" than an unfeeling clod of dirt?

What quality are you comparing things to in order to say "better" or "best"?


reply to post by arpgme

Detachment and apathy are two different things. ]

My definition of apathy is "not caring" so it is the same by that definition.

Originally posted by maria_stardust
reply to post by arpgme

 

By being apathetic, we in turn become amoral. Living in a personal vacuum sans conscience is to disregard that which sets us apart from the inhumane. By denying the best of our essential nature -- our inherent goodness -- we would be no better than an unfeeling clod of dirt.

How is personal detachment any form of enlightenment?

If I might add...forgive me if I'm way off topic in regards to your train of thought...

Apathy is natural and is displayed perfectly in bacteria, they replicate and kill organisms in the process...as far as we know they don't feel one way or the other about killing a host, they simply are surviving. What separates humanity from the previously known species of earth is our ability to override animal desires and analyse situations based on factors outside our direct instincts. Which in many cases has resulted in moments of genuine compassion, caring and understanding for our fellow members of the species. This distinction has advanced us to a level in which we are able to have this conversation at this moment. (obviously some people still give in to their animal desires and act on emotion/instinct without thought)

It all depends on how you look at the world. You can focus on what you perceive to be the good and see rainbows everywhere, you can focus on what you perceive to be bad and see demons everywhere or you can look at the aggregate and realize compassion has led to a lot more progress towards the truth than it has distance.

I think removing all desire is idiotic. Buddist morons who want a free tibet... i mean wtf, attach much?

Desire should be rational and based upon a concensus... any good scientist wants concensus. You cant go wrong basing what you want off of the wants and needs of a universe full of life.

You can "not care" when your dead... and if you already dont care, your already a corpse.

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by maria_stardust
reply to post by arpgme

 

By being apathetic, we in turn become amoral. Living in a personal vacuum sans conscience is to disregard that which sets us apart from the inhumane. By denying the best of our essential nature -- our inherent goodness -- we would be no better than an unfeeling clod of dirt.

What do you mean the "best" of our essential nature? And what do you mean no "better" than an unfeeling clod of dirt?

What quality are you comparing things to in order to say "better" or "best"?

reply to post by arpgme

Detachment and apathy are two different things. ]

My definition of apathy is "not caring" so it is the same by that definition.

Guess its true what they say same minds think alike.

I can relate somewhat to what you are saying.
In my own path, I came upon the necessity of an existential nihilism. In my case it was probably kicked off as a result of moving to another culture and having a sort of culture shock, when I realized that many of the ideas, values and concepts I took for granted as being universal truths were in fact only cultural. It knocked the floor of meaning out from under my feet.

This sparked a sense of apathy on one level. If there is no intrinsic meaning to life and living, what can I possibly care about?

But then the fun started......
The answer was- ANYTHING I WANT. The meaning, the values, the goals and motivations are mine to choose.
For a second that sounded scary- but what I found was that I had no desires to experience things that hurt or hurt others. Even with the free choice, they didn't have a natural draw.

I found a link between my apathy and my sense of powerlessness. In areas I feel powerless in, I feel more apathy. I can stir more emotion up simply with my thoughts and imagination, but if I have no skills, or capability of taking action in the situation it is a waste of emotional energy, and potentially destructive.

I then found this, Csikszentmihalyi's flow model, which illustrates what I mean well-



My view of compassion is something I feel which is something loving enough to let others experience their own life- their mistakes, their lessons, their chosen paths. This is very hard to explain, but there is a level at which compassion and apathy are NOT opposites, they are the same thing. One side is what the world can see (perhaps apathetic lack of action) and what is at the heart (love and care).

Something like the way Joy and Sadness are actually the same at a very subtle level. Like when a loss carries the sadness of separation and the joy of freedom simultaneously (but we only choose which side to acknowledge and show to the world).

Excessive caring, excessive emotional attachment can lead to psychological problems and struggles as much as depression can. You get into problems with anxiety attacks, for example.
If you look at this emotional production as if on a continuum, we're probably able to be most effective in our lives if we stay somewhere in the middle, navigating between producing emotion (energy in motion) to levels in accordance with our skill and knowledge levels, to minimize energy waste or lack of necessary energy.

I don't know if that makes sense to anyone else- I have never tried to put into words this sort of way I currently see the issue.

What we all must understand that to have compassion, you must have the opposite first. It is as simple as that. So there is simply nothing wrong with having apathy. I encourage you to head off into apathy, because a person cannot have compassion. If he does not have compassion for his own self. It cannot just come out of no where. Once the being becomes apathetic and starts to feel compassionate about him self. Then here is what he has learned to treasure further on. As for people who see compassion as silly, I'll tell them continue thriving in apathy.

reply to post by Bluesma


I agree with everything you wrote i feel the same as well. Once detached everything becomes equal and equally interesting!..

The opposite lead to a fixation on things. No wonder people are easily drawn to new age cults its because they are felled with compassion and caring.