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Eternity versus Everlasting Life

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posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 11:41 AM
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reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Well, you've kind of got it, but you're getting bogged down in the details. When you speak of a cat, unless you are referencing a specific one (a material cat,) you're referencing the form of a cat, which is a concept, not a material object. The form of a cat has always existed, always will, and is separate from the existence or non-existence of material cats. It isn't an idea -- you didn't suddenly dream up the idea of a cat -- it is a intelligible form, and since it is neither invented or material, it is eternal, it has no beginning or end.

As I said earlier, it might be easier to think about laws of physics, because they are a little more obvious. Man didn't "invent" the Laws of Thermodynamics, he discovered them, because they were there the whole time, waiting for someone to discover them. They were there before the Big Bang (again, so far as we know,) and they will exist after the universe ends, because the universe is dependent on them, they are not dependent on the universe.




posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
There is nothing to lead us believe that there is anything that can be properly affixed with the label 'eternal' or 'immortal'. How can we suppose or even conceive such a thing exists before, during or after life? I can imagine a horse with a man's head in my thoughts, much like I can imagine something being eternal. Who can say that the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance?

It seems that obedience to a particular idea is the only reason this notion persists, not anything found in experience, habit, or the common senses. I would be wary of such seductions.

ETA: Same goes for 'everlasting life'


edit on 6-9-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)


"the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance"

And what is the purpose of the idea? If someone believes Truth to be a hell then the idea is a nuisance.

I will tell you why the idea of eternity exists. Because we have yet to conclude the idea of Time has any substance whatsoever. We have neither concluded a beginning or an end to Time. We know our idea of time is a fantasy so the idea of eternity persists and is in fact pre-existant.


Time is merely a method of measuring the distance between events when events are ordered in a linear fashion.

From an eternal perspective, all events (past, present and future) exist at once.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:10 PM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by LesMisanthrope
 


Well, you've kind of got it, but you're getting bogged down in the details. When you speak of a cat, unless you are referencing a specific one (a material cat,) you're referencing the form of a cat, which is a concept, not a material object. The form of a cat has always existed, always will, and is separate from the existence or non-existence of material cats. It isn't an idea -- you didn't suddenly dream up the idea of a cat -- it is a intelligible form, and since it is neither invented or material, it is eternal, it has no beginning or end.


How are we able to say the form of a cat is eternal if cats are not? Did the form of a cat exist before cats existed? I don't see how this conclusion is reached.

ETA:

Well, you've kind of got it, but you're getting bogged down in the details.

That's philosophy for you.

edit on 6-9-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
How are we able to say the form of a cat is eternal if cats are not? Did the form of a cat exist before cats existed? I don't see how this conclusion is reached.


Because the form doesn't rely on the material cat. So, yes, the form pre-existed material cats. The form is intelligible, the cat is sensible (in that you can only think about the form, but you can sense the cat,) meaning that the form has always been there, waiting for you to find it, it wasn't created by someone looking for the idealized cat the first time a material cat was sensed.



Well, you've kind of got it, but you're getting bogged down in the details.

That's philosophy for you.


Got that right, lol.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by RedBird
The philosophy of Alan Watts typifies the modern pantheistic view of heaven, I think. His lecture on G K Chesterton contains a discussion of Heaven intended to demonstrate man's oneness with the higher principle and all of creation. It's a fascinating discussion, but ultimately unconvincing.

The idea is basically that in a perfect paradise, we would be able to manifest every reality and wish fulfillment we desired. After doing this for incomprehensible ages, we would get bored, and begin to create manifestations that would surprise us. And in order to make them more exciting, we would make ourselves forget who we were and what we were capable of while we were in them. This, argues Alan Watts, is the true nature of existence already. We are all God experiencing the universe in random, subjective ways.

This is the philosophy i most relate to these days.

As you mentioned, we would have to become bored at some point with our omniscience or servitute of a higher being. As the OP mentioned, we could play cards for millions of years, do anything we want, whenever we want, but this wouldnt be enough. Yes, it may keep us entertained for a time, but after billions, nay, trillions of years, watching big bang after big bang, exploring the multi-verse, eventually we would grow bored. I can actually imagine this boredom becoming all encompassing and worse than anything possibly inflicted upon you in these physical lives of ours. But thats a terrifing thought. The pain we can suffer here on this earth can be enough that it makes some wish they were never born at all.

So, as this theory points out, eventually we want nothing more than to "forget ourselves", even if just for a while. So we take a chance, are born into the physical universe and live our lives.

Originally posted by RedBird
The trouble with this philosophy is that it removes all impetus for action. All crimes and abuses may be excused since all experiences are equally valuable and all suffering is ultimately illusory.

The other problem with this dogma is that it denies most human virtues. What is Love when there is only one thing, and that one thing is ultimately impersonal?

I dont actually see these as being problems of this theory. While our mortal bodies and minds see these as problems, our eternal spirits would not.
edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 01:56 PM
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Originally posted by nightbringr


Originally posted by RedBird
The trouble with this philosophy is that it removes all impetus for action. All crimes and abuses may be excused since all experiences are equally valuable and all suffering is ultimately illusory.

The other problem with this dogma is that it denies most human virtues. What is Love when there is only one thing, and that one thing is ultimately impersonal?

I dont actually see these as being problems of this theory. While our mortal bodies and minds see these as problems, our eternal spirits would not.
edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)


All crimes and abuses may be excused?

Not necessarily, since the abuser's punishment is a valuable experience, for the abuser and their punisher.

Helping the victims is a valuable experience, for the victim and the helper.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Glass

Originally posted by rwfresh

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
There is nothing to lead us believe that there is anything that can be properly affixed with the label 'eternal' or 'immortal'. How can we suppose or even conceive such a thing exists before, during or after life? I can imagine a horse with a man's head in my thoughts, much like I can imagine something being eternal. Who can say that the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance?

It seems that obedience to a particular idea is the only reason this notion persists, not anything found in experience, habit, or the common senses. I would be wary of such seductions.

ETA: Same goes for 'everlasting life'


edit on 6-9-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)


"the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance"

And what is the purpose of the idea? If someone believes Truth to be a hell then the idea is a nuisance.

I will tell you why the idea of eternity exists. Because we have yet to conclude the idea of Time has any substance whatsoever. We have neither concluded a beginning or an end to Time. We know our idea of time is a fantasy so the idea of eternity persists and is in fact pre-existant.


Time is merely a method of measuring the distance between events when events are ordered in a linear fashion.

From an eternal perspective, all events (past, present and future) exist at once.


Totally agreed. The perspective of linear events is not actual. It is illusory. It's incorrect. Not true or real.

If we are color blind but unaware of the defect we may associate incorrect characteristics to things we are looking at based on our blindness. Eternity is the true perspective. It is truth.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen
 



Let's say that you like to play cards. Everlasting life means that you can invite friends over to play cards, and no one has to leave "because I'm tired" or "because I have work in the morning" or anything else. They can play cards for as long as they like -- you could host a card game, with people coming and going, for as long as you felt like holding it.


"You can have all the cake and ice cream and puppies and toys you want in heaven..."

That's what you just suggested in that quote. And that isn't an immature view? I find it hilarious, really. If we fail to abstain from the seven sins, "God" will use the seven sins to punish us. If we DO abstain, "God" will use the seven sins to reward us.

Yet another logical fallacy. Oh, my, who saw that coming?


Sorry to say, it is you that has the immature view: "You can have all the cake and ice cream and puppies and toys you want in heaven..." Really?

I don't know about anyone else, but the thing I'm looking forward to the most is the promise that the "mysteries will be revealed." The wonders of the universe go far beyond ice cream and puppies, and we are promised that we will understand them all.

Then there are other universes, and other dimensions to explore where we will - IMHO - continue to grow as a part of God's family, giving Him "grandchildren" and more; spreading His truth throughout the cosmos to the NEXT generation, and the generation after that.

Who knows, that could take... an eternity.
edit on 9/6/2012 by TTAA2012 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Glass

Originally posted by nightbringr


Originally posted by RedBird
The trouble with this philosophy is that it removes all impetus for action. All crimes and abuses may be excused since all experiences are equally valuable and all suffering is ultimately illusory.

The other problem with this dogma is that it denies most human virtues. What is Love when there is only one thing, and that one thing is ultimately impersonal?

I dont actually see these as being problems of this theory. While our mortal bodies and minds see these as problems, our eternal spirits would not.
edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)


All crimes and abuses may be excused?

Not necessarily, since the abuser's punishment is a valuable experience, for the abuser and their punisher.

Helping the victims is a valuable experience, for the victim and the helper.

But what do these things matter to our eternal soul? Do you think your spirit will "grow" somehow from being punished in this physical world? Ive heard this refrain many times, yet it does not make sense in this scenerio.

After all, we are hypothesizing that we come to earth to escape boredom, not learn some great, cosmic truth.
edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by nightbringr
 


Hypothesizing, yes? Then it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. And as long as we're in the game, I can hypothesize that you're wrong.

Not that I'm saying you are...I'm just pointing out the door you left wide open.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:05 PM
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reply to post by adjensen
 


What if, by everlasting life He meant as in reincarnation??


That would mean we would already be in Heaven.

Nice,
Mike



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by SplitInfinity
 


So you are saying that if those Islamic idiots were actually going to get 70 virgins for blowing themselves up ( NOT) they would still be virgins for eternity and the poor soul would be cursing his Imam . LOL
I do believe that in the presence withthe Lord things would be different . The dictates of the Flesh restrict the expanses of the Spirit . Who knows what will be available to us .



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:16 PM
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Originally posted by PsyMike91
reply to post by adjensen
 


What if, by everlasting life He meant as in reincarnation??


No, the universe is doomed to destruction in 16-50 billion years, so even if reincarnation was a viable thing, material life in this reality couldn't be everlasting.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:18 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by nightbringr
 


Hypothesizing, yes? Then it doesn't matter if we're right or wrong. And as long as we're in the game, I can hypothesize that you're wrong.

Not that I'm saying you are...I'm just pointing out the door you left wide open.

Im not sure what door your refering to.

And i also dont believe our earthly morals would apply to our eternal souls. I dont believe in good and bad as black and white, i dont believe in some allmighty god. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you meant?

Edit. Actually having read the rest of your posts to others on this subject, it appears quite obvious your a troll. Laters.

edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:24 PM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I decided that my speculation, due to lack of empirical evidence at hand, was not worth pursuing in our discussion. With that in mind, I respectfully declined to further argue the point.

In response, you attack me by saying that my decision was childish because I refuse to agree with a subject of complete speculation, considering the lack of empirical evidence on your side of the fence.

I've never seen someone act so insulted by such a polite refusal to engage in confrontation. But then again, it's an understandable reaction, as you're probably trying to get a reaction and thereby obtain more ammo with which to persecute my lack of willingness to argue over a discussion that won't go anywhere anyway. Have fun with that.


I am shocked that you only care to continue arguing any points without having any knowledge to back up your arguments. You have continued to argue and demean in this thread and yet by your very own admission you have absolutely no knowledge or basis for any of your arguments.

You haven't educated yourself on any of the points I have made - which are all common sense points anyway and require very little reflection to discern. You have only continued in this thread to demean others' arguments. But if you want to have a real discussion and you want to have real learning, is it not wise to attempt to learn the view against which you are unable to formulate an argument so that you are better able to have a discussion?

Is not the purpose of these discussions to learn? Or are we here just to entertain ourselves by rattling off random opinions and to demean each other without cause?

Your actions indicate motive towards the latter.

You only hinder yourself.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:32 PM
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Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by Glass

Originally posted by nightbringr


Originally posted by RedBird
The trouble with this philosophy is that it removes all impetus for action. All crimes and abuses may be excused since all experiences are equally valuable and all suffering is ultimately illusory.

The other problem with this dogma is that it denies most human virtues. What is Love when there is only one thing, and that one thing is ultimately impersonal?

I dont actually see these as being problems of this theory. While our mortal bodies and minds see these as problems, our eternal spirits would not.
edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)


All crimes and abuses may be excused?

Not necessarily, since the abuser's punishment is a valuable experience, for the abuser and their punisher.

Helping the victims is a valuable experience, for the victim and the helper.

But what do these things matter to our eternal soul? Do you think your spirit will "grow" somehow from being punished in this physical world? Ive heard this refrain many times, yet it does not make sense in the scenerio.

After all, we are hypothesizing that we come to earth to escape boredom, not learn some great, cosmic truth.


The eternal soul's purpose is essentially to expand and explore every possibility, so yes, I think it will grow in some way from each experience.

(of course this is looking at it from the perspective of linear time. In eternal perspective it has already grown beyond infinity, it is complete and perfect)

Boredom doesn't fully describe the reason we are here; it's one way of putting it, but I think that we had learned all there was to learn from being able to experiment with the fabric of reality.

In the void emptiness of the beginning, we could have discovered all the emotions and sensations, and invented all the forms of matter in our imaginative mind, but without context.

It might have even been maddening to be able to swing rapidly from joy to suffering, love to crippling loneliness, etc. on a whim, while not understanding what any of those feelings represent.

Dividing consciousness from one objective view into several subjective ones allows us to put those feelings into context, answering the question of why one would feel joy or suffering or love or loneliness. It gives meaning to the forms of matter we dreamt up and allows new ways of manipulating that matter to create new things, like technology.

Could you imagine living the life of a serial killer, slaughtering innocent people without remorse, and then, after you die, the memories of the lives of those people you killed come flooding into your consciousness? And along with those memories come the memories of their loved ones and the pain they endured, and it all comes together to weave a grim and profound tapestry of what it means to live that kind of life. And as you're experiencing this you go through a sort of personal hell as all the pain you've inflicted is inflicted upon you and then suddenly you understand why...

It's a beautiful thing in my opinion.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 04:26 PM
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Originally posted by Glass
The eternal soul's purpose is essentially to expand and explore every possibility, so yes, I think it will grow in some way from each experience.

But like everything else in this post, this is conjecture. You may claim to think this is how it is, but you cannot know it with certainty.

Originally posted by Glass
Boredom doesn't fully describe the reason we are here; it's one way of putting it, but I think that we had learned all there was to learn from being able to experiment with the fabric of reality.

Why not? I could be as simple as our eternal souls becoming restless and wanting to "forget" for a while we are immortal and eternal. Not sure why there has to be more to it.

Originally posted by Glass
Could you imagine living the life of a serial killer, slaughtering innocent people without remorse, and then, after you die, the memories of the lives of those people you killed come flooding into your consciousness? And along with those memories come the memories of their loved ones and the pain they endured, and it all comes together to weave a grim and profound tapestry of what it means to live that kind of life. And as you're experiencing this you go through a sort of personal hell as all the pain you've inflicted is inflicted upon you and then suddenly you understand why...

And imagine this scenerio, but when we die, we are simply our eternal spiritual self again. No heaven, no hell, no remorse or regret.

I think you are trying to pin some kind of universal sense of morality on things, when really we dont know if there is such a thing. I dont claim to know the answers, and i dont think we will truely have them until we die. Again, we simply do not know.

Originally posted by Glass
It's a beautiful thing in my opinion.

And this is why you believe it to be this way. To you its beautiful and therefore makes sense. I dont pretend to think the universe makes sense. Why does it have to?



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 05:12 PM
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Originally posted by nightbringr

Originally posted by Glass
The eternal soul's purpose is essentially to expand and explore every possibility, so yes, I think it will grow in some way from each experience.

But like everything else in this post, this is conjecture. You may claim to think this is how it is, but you cannot know it with certainty.


No offense, but I get really tired of this sort of response. "You cannot know..." haha, but what if I do know? You'd never know for certain whether or not I know for certain. You merely assume that I cannot know because you do not, and believe you cannot.




Originally posted by Glass
Boredom doesn't fully describe the reason we are here; it's one way of putting it, but I think that we had learned all there was to learn from being able to experiment with the fabric of reality.

Why not? I could be as simple as our eternal souls becoming restless and wanting to "forget" for a while we are immortal and eternal. Not sure why there has to be more to it.


Personal experience tells me that nothing is ever quite that simple. I just think it was not only restlessness but also the desire to have a unique experience, perhaps in pursuit of a particular emotion or idea.




Originally posted by Glass
Could you imagine living the life of a serial killer, slaughtering innocent people without remorse, and then, after you die, the memories of the lives of those people you killed come flooding into your consciousness? And along with those memories come the memories of their loved ones and the pain they endured, and it all comes together to weave a grim and profound tapestry of what it means to live that kind of life. And as you're experiencing this you go through a sort of personal hell as all the pain you've inflicted is inflicted upon you and then suddenly you understand why...

And imagine this scenerio, but when we die, we are simply our eternal spiritual self again. No heaven, no hell, no remorse or regret.


...well, thats boring


The idea is that the eternal self remembers the lives it has experienced, that when one dies they pass through heaven/hell, which is merely the transition of the subjective consciousness back into the eternal objective consciousness as you remember your other lives and the connections between them.

If instead when I die I simply pop back into eternal consciousness with no recollection and nothing gained...well...what was the point?



I think you are trying to pin some kind of universal sense of morality on things, when really we dont know if there is such a thing. I dont claim to know the answers, and i dont think we will truely have them until we die. Again, we simply do not know.


I think you might be trying to evade morality and judgement.

All I'm saying is that when our finite consciousness reuinites with the omniscient, we will fully understand the effects our actions had in the big picture. We know that even the smallest actions have far-reaching consequences. Knowing those consequences would give anyone a sense of purpose.

Basically I'm telling you right now: Yes. We will have the answers when we die.




Originally posted by Glass
It's a beautiful thing in my opinion.

And this is why you believe it to be this way. To you its beautiful and therefore makes sense. I dont pretend to think the universe makes sense. Why does it have to?


Perhaps you just haven't made sense of it yet?

I'm not claiming to know everything, but I'm 99% certain that I know something.
edit on 6/9/2012 by Glass because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by Glass
No offense, but I get really tired of this sort of response. "You cannot know..." haha, but what if I do know? You'd never know for certain whether or not I know for certain. You merely assume that I cannot know because you do not, and believe you cannot.

And to be honest, i get tired of people insisting they "know" the greatest mysteries of life, yet never offer any explanation as to how they became aware. Instead of trying to be mysterious, why not simply explain how you know?

Originally posted by Glass
Personal experience tells me that nothing is ever quite that simple. I just think it was not only restlessness but also the desire to have a unique experience, perhaps in pursuit of a particular emotion or idea.

Personal experience tells me life is VERY simple at its root. We are born, we try and do the best we can and live happy lives, and we die. Simple.

To me it would seem insane for an eternal spirit to want to be incarnated on this planet. I have a great life i love, but when i look at all the horror, suffering and pain so many people live with on a daily basis, it seems beyond crazy to want to be here. The only valid explanation i can offer is our eternal existance becomes unbearable at a point and we want nothing more than to forget it, even for a while. Nothing else makes sense to me. Why would you want to be born into a family that sexually abuses you, tortures you and eventually kills you by leaving you locked in the basement alone, helpless and afraid? Because that could be any one of us. The ONLY answer that makes sense is the afterlife can be worse.

Originally posted by Glass
...well, thats boring


The idea is that the eternal self remembers the lives it has experienced, that when one dies they pass through heaven/hell, which is merely the transition of the subjective consciousness back into the eternal objective consciousness as you remember your other lives and the connections between them.

If instead when I die I simply pop back into eternal consciousness with no recollection and nothing gained...well...what was the point?

Again, no idea why there has to be a point. I understand the need and want for everything to "make sense", but i, unlike you, assert that there is no need for anything to make sense.

Perhaps if you explained to me how you know this is the way it is, i can better understand. Your first paragraph does indeed imply that you know beyond a doubt that this is how the universe works. Could you please enlighten us?

Originally posted by Glass
I think you might be trying to evade morality and judgement.

I think if you knew me you wouldnt think that. I have a good life, no criminal record and generally believe i have a good heart. I simply do not know why you contend that our morals we observe here on this earthly plane have any bearing whatsoever in the spiritual plane.

Originally posted by Glass
All I'm saying is that when our finite consciousness reuinites with the omniscient, we will fully understand the effects our actions had in the big picture. We know that even the smallest actions have far-reaching consequences. Knowing those consequences would give anyone a sense of purpose.

Again, your grasping for purpose in a universe that may not care how you feel about it.

Originally posted by Glass
Basically I'm telling you right now: Yes. We will have the answers when we die.

On this we can agree.



Originally posted by Glass
Perhaps you just haven't made sense of it yet?

I'm not claiming to know everything, but I'm 99% certain that I know something.

All fair. I used to believe exactly as you do. But my insatiable need to know whats "out there" has since led me to believe there is no reason at all for things to make sense.

I now view such asserations as a type of New Age religion. So many here rag on Christians and others for having religious beliefs, all the while extolling their "we are Gods" religion. Its no different. We are lonely and scared and unsure of what is out there when we die, so we make up stories and mythos to explain it and make us feel better. All we have really done is replace the all mighty diety with ourselves.

edit on 6-9-2012 by nightbringr because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 7 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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reply to post by SimonPeter
 

I am not a Religious person but I have experienced things that have allowed me to understand that there is more going on than what any religion can describe. Split Infinity



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