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Eternity versus Everlasting Life

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posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen
 


The moment you mention heaven, "God" becomes involved. Highly pertinent subject matter.


Not really. I believe in God, but I have a number of friends who believe in an afterlife, but don't believe in God (well, not anything like I do, lol.)


And if you're talking about the absence of time, then you're saying that eternity and everlasting life are the same thing. Which makes your thread a moot one.


No, semantically, they aren't the same thing. Eternity means that time doesn't exist. Everlasting life means that what we are continues without end. A subtle difference, perhaps, but a significant one, philosophically.




posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen
reply to post by PrimitiveWorld
 


Well, star for you, but you're missing the point. This is a matter of philosophy, what we perceive the truth of time to be. It has nothing to do with personal chemistry or quantum mechanics.

Personally, I've seen enough of people re-defining quantum mechanics to be "magic", when it is, in fact, statistics applied to an unmeasurable (currently) level of behaviour. Once we have a better ability to measure what is going on at the quantum level, all that "magic" is going to go away.


There is no magic, only conciousness. You know how scientists are building colliders for billions of dollars, looking for the smallest physical piece of material that makes up the physical world? In the future, they find out that its pure energy that keeps the universe together, and its a form of energy that science doesnt grasp yet - conciousness. Its not a energy that you can measure, like gravity. You cant find it by studying the material world.


Anyway, I dont mean to get in the way here. I just get excited talking about this... Im sorry if I disturbed your topic, and Im off now.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


If heaven is outer space, then what is hell? I assume you know the answer to that as well.

Additionally, how does our behavior have any bearing on whether or not we go to space? After all, if sinners don't go to heaven, then obviously space isn't heaven...considering the Russians have already been there.


Joking, joking! Jeez.


Yes. Hell is "Sheol" which literally means "the grave". Hell and Hades are terms that were used interchangeably to give, especially pagan people, an understand of what was the end result of those who refused to obey God and have faith In Jesus Christ.

If you search, you will find this to be true.

Death and Hell is a common phrase in the New Testament to refer to the first death. The first death is the death that (most) all people have to suffer because of our sin. It simply means non-existence. When you die, you cease to exist.

That is Hell. Separation from God. Whereas Heaven is the description of the fabric upon which all bodies in the universe hang.

But also realize that Earth is a place that is within Heaven. But Earth is not Heaven. This is obvious. It is simply a place within it. Just like the universe is not infinity, but it exists within infinity. It's the same thing.

So there is everlasting life in Heaven (the rest of the universe, including all unknowns to us very narrow human beings) with God, and then there is everlasting death, which is the second death - the second death is the lake of fire - which destroys Death and Hell - which He goes on further to explain that He destroys Satan, his followers, and all people who were evil and rejected His love.

The lake of fire is NOT death and hell, for it destroys death and hell. There is no more death or separation from God for anyone living henceforth from that moment. There will be no memory of the former things, as it is written.

There will only be everlasting life for God and all of creation for all things will have been made perfect at this time.

So there is either existence with God, or non-existence. IT is as simple as that.

There are two kinds of people - people who want to be with God and people who do not. Either way, every single person will get their desire.

And while this always makes sense to me, I still do not relate to people that do not understand this concept. It is a very simple thing.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:21 AM
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reply to post by adjensen
 



I have a number of friends who believe in an afterlife, but don't believe in God


I said 'heaven', not 'afterlife'. That was a very deliberate specification on my part, trust me. I'm not so foolish as to allow a semantics loophole by which to dodge the question.


No, semantically, they aren't the same thing. Eternity means that time doesn't exist. Everlasting life means that what we are continues without end. A subtle difference, perhaps, but a significant one, philosophically.


Now that is an interesting point. You're alleging that in order for life to exist, time must also exist...which is quite arguable, because in order to live, we must also be dying in one way or another, and death is not possible without the passage of time.

But according to the Bible (and because you mentioned heaven in your OP, yes, I am going to take it there) "God" is life, which means life can exist outside of time, yes? It's at a stand still, though. Suspended animation? Or a loop?

Can life exist in a loop? Of course. It's called neutrality. Stasis. So according to you, "everlasting life" is stasis. Unless you have another logical conclusion? If so, I'd love to discuss it.

edit on 6-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:24 AM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I'm confused. If we die and are separated from "God", does that mean our soul follows our body to the grave? If not, where does the soul go that's separate from "God"?

You're saying hell is literally the grave?



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 12:46 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I'm confused. If we die and are separated from "God", does that mean our soul follows our body to the grave? If not, where does the soul go that's separate from "God"?

You're saying hell is literally the grave?


Jesus Christ referred to the dead as "asleep". This is to say that the first death is not the final death - but that it is in actuality a resting waiting time for the resurrection (the resurrection of the living first, and then 1000 years later the resurrection of the dead - or those who are not found in the Book of Life).

The soul would simply be asleep. The soul does not exist within the physical realm. The soul would be inert, more or less, in the infinite dimension, or in the mind of God. The soul is a memory, if you will. It cannot follow the body into the ground.

Hell is literally the grave. It is death. That is what it is.

People who die the first death are not going to a lake of fire (yet, if that is there chosen destiny). All people who die the first death end up in the same place. No one ends up in a special place except for times where God makes an exception (which He did make a few rare exceptions for a few).

However, it is at the point of the resurrection which He reveals to each their destiny. Everlasting life to the resurrection of the living and destruction in the lake of fire for those not found in the Book of Life. "There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

But that destruction is a destruction of BODY AND SOUL; not just the body. The body is destroyed once again and then the soul is destroyed with it in the lake of fire along with death and hell (because there will no longer be death for anyone else ever. The first death is gotten rid of by means of casting out the father of sin, unrepentant sinners, and the curse of sin itself completely out of the realm of existence).

So, I will be more clear if I have not already been.

The rest of the universe is literally Heaven. The state of non-existence is death, or Hell.

Remember Jesus Christ said that those of us who obey Him and love Him become heirs with Him to the Throne. He said we will "sit with Him in the Throne".
Remember also that God said that "Heaven is my throne and earth is my footstool."
Remember also that God said that the firmament in the midst of the waters, the space upon which the earth (and all things) hang, space, is Heaven.

So therefore, God is literally telling us that if we love Him and obey Him, He will literally give us the keys to the universe. He will make us rulers in the universe - because He said that we will SIT WITH HIM IN THE THRONE. He makes us masters of the universe, literally.

But He is telling those who disobey Him that their inheritance is with their father - the father of lies. Satan's inheritance is eternal non-existence by means of destruction in the lake of fire - and so is the inheritance of all who believe that their life belong to themselves or that they are somehow above the Creator, as Satan believes and leads everyone else to believe.

So, once again, I say it again...

There are two choices, simply put. Existence with God.. or non-existence. It's that simple.

It's always been that simple.

I do not understand why people choose to make it more complicated than it is? God has told us in plain words what all these things are. Why do people continue to guess and make-up stories and try to pass off those stories as just as valid when there is absolutely no reason or common sense ALONE to back any of it up?

The reason why people find it so hard to imagine Heaven is because you didn't look for the answer!

Now maybe you all have a better understanding and a more enjoyable time imagining the things God might have in store for you if you will recognize Him as the sole Creator of this beautiful universe and also obey Him and accept His sacrifice, His Son, "Immanuel - GOD WITH US", manifested in the flesh to further marry Himself into the fabric of the universe He created for His joy and His glory; and He loves us enough to SHARE HIS THRONE WITH US if we love Him, truly. Not that we seek His Throne; no, but that we seek His love.

You see, Satan also desires God's Throne and wishes to be like God and above God even. This didn't earn him anything because of the things he was willing to do to get it.

It is obedience, true love, true reverence, understanding, humility, and yet also determination and willingness and acceptance and sometimes in this very painful life it helps to imagine all the things you might try out in this beautiful universe. Imagine teleporting between planets and shaking the hands of all the leaders of all of our brothers and sisters in the universe - and learning to play their unique musical instruments, eat their interesting foods...

Current earth is cultureless



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 01:27 AM
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There is nothing to lead us believe that there is anything that can be properly affixed with the label 'eternal' or 'immortal'. How can we suppose or even conceive such a thing exists before, during or after life? I can imagine a horse with a man's head in my thoughts, much like I can imagine something being eternal. Who can say that the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance?

It seems that obedience to a particular idea is the only reason this notion persists, not anything found in experience, habit, or the common senses. I would be wary of such seductions.

ETA: Same goes for 'everlasting life'


edit on 6-9-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 01:27 AM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I respectfully disagree with your understanding, but I'll not push it further because all I have is speculation.


Thanks for your clarification.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 02:56 AM
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I personally want nothing after death; zero remainder. Zip nada no transmigration, no heaven, no hell, no union with a godhead. NOTHING.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:12 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I respectfully disagree with your understanding, but I'll not push it further because all I have is speculation.


Thanks for your clarification.


You will disagree based solely upon speculation? Do you realize how that sounds?

"I disagree because I want to." That's what that sounds like.

The interpretation of the Holy Bible that I have given you is honest, true, and simple - the accounts I have given you are not taken from others' interpretations of the Bible; but my own eyes have read, and read again, the Holy Bible multiple times - and the New Testament an incredible number of times. Thanks to the wisdom of God, and all of the wisdom He gave us not only by the nature around us, the events in life we go through, but also His revealing in the Bible, I am able to give you the only truth the Bible tells us about the existence of Heaven and Hell.

Now if you would like to disagree with the facts that I have presented, then I willingly open my eyes and ears for you if you have some other reason with which you might actually shed new light or wisdom on any of these things.

If you are disagreeing on the basis of what every other Christian has told you, then forget what they told you. They were wrong. There are many self-professed Christians out there that DO NOT BELONG TO GOD. There are also a few true-Christians that may still not be understanding about some things (although you will find this is quite rare and is generally indicative that a Christian has recently been called and chosen) - though, that is not to say that the true Christians have more knowing than anyone else; but rather that God has given us greater knowing by reason of our obedience and love in Him

Pay attention to the word obedience. This is the factor most Christians fail to recognize. And we all make mistakes - but many scoff at the need to truly obey God. People say, "Jesus will forgive me" and then go do something. This is madness. This is not obedience. My son, when he says to himself, "I'm going to touch what dad told me not to touch anyway, because I know he loves me." No. Sorry little brother. You've just ended any good that was in your day.

I have very little problem with you except that you said you disagree based purely upon speculation. That is completely absurd; and it is only so maddening for me because you claim to be so intelligent. I disagree with your reasoning for disagreeing. If only you had made an effort.

But I do understand that it is the false understanding, false prophecies, false attitudes, false everything about people who CLAIM to be Christian and people who CLAIM God as their own that have caused people like you to exist. You're mixed and muddled and because you have no allegiance to some form of a god, you are indifferent with your understanding of all things spiritual. So therefore you consider that all things spiritual belong in the same bag and you condemn the bag. But this is also utter foolishness. Spirituality is an inescapable reality - regardless of whether you believe in it or not, it is all around you, especially in the form of people constantly discussing it! So it would be very wise, at the very least, and as a science-minded individual, to actually learn about God so that, at the VERY very least, when you choose to disagree with someone, you will have a valid reasoning by and for which you will argue.

But, I would actually rather that you didn't argue so much as LEARN THE TRUTH.

There really is no reason to argue because the truth is simply the truth. When there is arguing then there is somebody that is wrong. So then at the very least one person is responsible for speaking out of turn and being completely ignorant as to the subject matter of a discussion. Of course, here at Above Top Secret, I see more like two people arguing and they are both wrong. It's sad that not even at least one side of an argument is right anymore.

So, anyway. My post has gone on for an eternity it would seem. I will take a little more peace now.

AfterInfinity, you are raging against God; I see that in your threads and your posts. You're looking for someone to prove you wrong. You're begging His hand upon you - even if it hurts. You're afraid of the realities I expressed earlier because some of them met the desires that you have - and you that it makes no sense for God to give us dreams and then not fulfill them - and yet our "spiritual leaders" have been telling you that that's not possible - well, except for the evil foolish ones that are only con-artists - and they further ruined your view because you were too smart to fall for their pretend games. So you rage, and seek a reason.

It's time you stopped raging and started accepting that He has been talking to you the whole time. Stop screaming and hear.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:19 AM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I decided that my speculation, due to lack of empirical evidence at hand, was not worth pursuing in our discussion. With that in mind, I respectfully declined to further argue the point.

In response, you attack me by saying that my decision was childish because I refuse to agree with a subject of complete speculation, considering the lack of empirical evidence on your side of the fence.

I've never seen someone act so insulted by such a polite refusal to engage in confrontation. But then again, it's an understandable reaction, as you're probably trying to get a reaction and thereby obtain more ammo with which to persecute my lack of willingness to argue over a discussion that won't go anywhere anyway. Have fun with that.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 03:20 AM
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reply to post by BigBrotherDarkness
 


I can respect that. We die for a reason, right? Because that particular movie, that particular lifetime, has been finished.

Makes perfect sense.

edit on 6-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 08:44 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity

No, semantically, they aren't the same thing. Eternity means that time doesn't exist. Everlasting life means that what we are continues without end. A subtle difference, perhaps, but a significant one, philosophically.


Now that is an interesting point. You're alleging that in order for life to exist, time must also exist...which is quite arguable, because in order to live, we must also be dying in one way or another, and death is not possible without the passage of time.


No, not really, unless one is to limit "life" to something akin to "bodily existence in this reality." Can "life" exist beyond this reality? Sure, why not, assuming that one's definition of "life" is broad enough?


But according to the Bible (and because you mentioned heaven in your OP, yes, I am going to take it there) "God" is life, which means life can exist outside of time, yes? It's at a stand still, though. Suspended animation? Or a loop?


That's actually a pretty difficult question that I've struggled with, and have come to no conclusion. If time doesn't exist, how does one, for example, construct a sentence -- make one word come after the other? As a result, one is left to determine that time does exist, but not in the same sense, and that doesn't really help.

In the end, I just put it down to:


“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. (Isaiah 55:8 NIV)

and I'll check with him when the time comes



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 08:53 AM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
There is nothing to lead us believe that there is anything that can be properly affixed with the label 'eternal' or 'immortal'. How can we suppose or even conceive such a thing exists before, during or after life? I can imagine a horse with a man's head in my thoughts, much like I can imagine something being eternal. Who can say that the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance?


Well, near as we can tell, there are eternal things.

One example would be a circle -- a perfect circle does not (some would say cannot, though I disagree,) exist in this reality, but as a mathematical concept, it has always existed, has never changed, will never change, and will always exist in the same form. It was there before the Big Bang, and it will be there in billions of years when the universe tears itself apart and no longer exists.

(Reference Plato's Theory of Forms -- all forms are eternal, as well.)



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
There is nothing to lead us believe that there is anything that can be properly affixed with the label 'eternal' or 'immortal'. How can we suppose or even conceive such a thing exists before, during or after life? I can imagine a horse with a man's head in my thoughts, much like I can imagine something being eternal. Who can say that the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance?


Well, near as we can tell, there are eternal things.

One example would be a circle -- a perfect circle does not (some would say cannot, though I disagree,) exist in this reality, but as a mathematical concept, it has always existed, has never changed, will never change, and will always exist in the same form. It was there before the Big Bang, and it will be there in billions of years when the universe tears itself apart and no longer exists.

(Reference Plato's Theory of Forms -- all forms are eternal, as well.)


Yes. Concepts are contrivances.

Ideas: perfect circles, triangles, straight lines, horses with a man's head, eternity, Plato's forms etc. begin in the human mind. And since we know humans are not eternal, we can safely say that their ideas are not as well. Ideas can last as long as they are remembered, and none further.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen
 


On that subject, time is a name for a certain quality of the reality around us. Just like distance and height, we have time. A term for a property of our reality. The word 'time' has one sole purpose: to express that particular perceived property in our reality.

And we can even measure that property...in minutes, hours, days, and weeks.
edit on 6-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)


Excellent. God is a name for something as well as defined by thousands of writings from all philosophical, cultural, religious histories. There is no other word better suited to it's meaning. Disregarding the label leaves one without a label to communicate the meaning.

God is not a Christian word. On time - time is illusory in the context of actual Reality. "the reality around us" is completely without substance. It is not Reality. Using the word reality and time in the same sentence is an incorrect use of the word Reality. A word like God helps draw contrast as well as context for the completely delusional experience of intellectual and sensory perception most people are locked into.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 09:37 AM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Ideas: perfect circles, triangles, straight lines, horses with a man's head, eternity, Plato's forms etc. begin in the human mind. And since we know humans are not eternal, we can safely say that their ideas are not as well. Ideas can last as long as they are remembered, and none further.


Nope, it isn't an idea, nor are Plato's forms (the "Theory of Forms" is an idea, the forms themselves are not.)

If you think that perfect circles didn't exist, prior to humans being around to observe them, or that they'll go away when we do, you have a very bizarre view of reality.

Spend a bit of time studying physics, and you'll understand what I mean. There are things which transcend this reality, and which allow it to exist. Metaphorically, they are the canvas that reality is painted on, and they were always in existence (as best as we can tell) and they will always be in existence -- they are eternal.

In case the idea bugs you, they are NOT God -- as I said earlier, this is a matter of philosophy, not theology.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by BigBrotherDarkness
I personally want nothing after death; zero remainder. Zip nada no transmigration, no heaven, no hell, no union with a godhead. NOTHING.


That desire is a wish that will remain unfulfilled which is where the desire comes from. Acknowledgement of it not being the case.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
There is nothing to lead us believe that there is anything that can be properly affixed with the label 'eternal' or 'immortal'. How can we suppose or even conceive such a thing exists before, during or after life? I can imagine a horse with a man's head in my thoughts, much like I can imagine something being eternal. Who can say that the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance?

It seems that obedience to a particular idea is the only reason this notion persists, not anything found in experience, habit, or the common senses. I would be wary of such seductions.

ETA: Same goes for 'everlasting life'


edit on 6-9-2012 by LesMisanthrope because: (no reason given)


"the idea of eternity isn't a mere contrivance"

And what is the purpose of the idea? If someone believes Truth to be a hell then the idea is a nuisance.

I will tell you why the idea of eternity exists. Because we have yet to conclude the idea of Time has any substance whatsoever. We have neither concluded a beginning or an end to Time. We know our idea of time is a fantasy so the idea of eternity persists and is in fact pre-existant.



posted on Sep, 6 2012 @ 11:27 AM
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Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
Ideas: perfect circles, triangles, straight lines, horses with a man's head, eternity, Plato's forms etc. begin in the human mind. And since we know humans are not eternal, we can safely say that their ideas are not as well. Ideas can last as long as they are remembered, and none further.


Nope, it isn't an idea, nor are Plato's forms (the "Theory of Forms" is an idea, the forms themselves are not.)

If you think that perfect circles didn't exist, prior to humans being around to observe them, or that they'll go away when we do, you have a very bizarre view of reality.

Spend a bit of time studying physics, and you'll understand what I mean. There are things which transcend this reality, and which allow it to exist. Metaphorically, they are the canvas that reality is painted on, and they were always in existence (as best as we can tell) and they will always be in existence -- they are eternal.

In case the idea bugs you, they are NOT God -- as I said earlier, this is a matter of philosophy, not theology.

You may need to read a little more Plato.

Here's an example: Cat's all share a quality common to all cats. That quality in philosophical jargon is called a 'universal.' Plato holds that every instance of a cat—your cat, my cat or in philosophical jargon a 'particular'—is merely the appearance of that universal. Plato asserts that the universal is eternal and created by God.

Now the term 'computer' is also a universal, which defines a quality held by all computers. That universal is one of Plato's forms. Do you hold that the idea of a computer is eternal and that it's been there forever and for all time? Or is a universal merely a linguistic convenience?

Are all apples merely appearances of one God-like eternal apple? Are all trees the image of one eternal tree?




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