Eternity versus Everlasting Life, page 1

Pages: << 1 2 3 4 >>
ATS Members have flagged this thread 6 times

Topic started on 5-9-2012 @ 10:51 PM by adjensen

I've seen a number of people make this sort of comment:

"Spending eternity in Heaven would be sooooooo boring. What's to prevent me from being bored?"

Generally, this implies an immature view of "heaven", with the idea that one would be sitting on a cloud, strumming a harp, and that's about it. Repeat, ad infinitum, and yes, I would agree that doesn't sound very compelling.

However, I would suggest that one use a different term, which Christ does -- "everlasting life".

What's the difference?

Well, conceptually, eternity is a nothing -- it just refers to the lack of time. Nothing begins, nothing ends, everything just is, as it is, and ever shall be.

But let's think about "everlasting life" for a moment, put it in context.

Let's say that you like to play cards. Everlasting life means that you can invite friends over to play cards, and no one has to leave "because I'm tired" or "because I have work in the morning" or anything else. They can play cards for as long as they like -- you could host a card game, with people coming and going, for as long as you felt like holding it.

Pick your favourite activity, and think about how time, money or resources limits your enjoyment of it. That goes away if time doesn't matter.

If you are twenty years old, the concept of everlasting life likely means little to you, because, at twenty, life IS everlasting. But when you're fifty… seventy… ninety… suddenly the idea of everlasting life starts to make sense. Time to do the things that you never had the chance to do. Time to do the things you never had the ability to do, because you have time to hone that ability, even if it takes forever.

That's what the concepts of eternity and everlasting life combine to be -- time is no longer of any relevance, and there is no end. It isn't that we go on forever, but we go on without end.

In the words of Wilford Brimley, of all people: "When we get where we're going, we'll never be sick, we won't get any older, and we won't ever die."

YouTube Link

When you know what life has to offer, and you see how limited the human experience is, what could be more appealing than that?

edit on 5-9-2012 by adjensen because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:15 PM by rwfresh

reply to post by adjensen

Everlasting life would be an infinitely continuous, novel, ecstatic revelation of ever increasing supreme ecstasy. Sounds good to me.

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:24 PM by SplitInfinity

The idea that IF we have some form of Soul or Afterlife in being in a state of pure energy discounts the idea that what we would become would have desires and needs that are associated with having a body.

In short...we would not want what we no longer need. Split Infinity

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:28 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
The idea that IF we have some form of Soul or Afterlife in being in a state of pure energy discounts the idea that what we would become would have desires and needs that are associated with having a body.

In short...we would not want what we no longer need. Split Infinity

Good point. Though I would counter with "pure energy requires the ability to affect the relationship between matter and energy", which would result in the ability to satisfy the wants and needs associated with having a body, if such an ability were necessary.

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:35 PM by biggmoneyme

eternity/divinity is a certain scale of existence, very subtle

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:36 PM by SplitInfinity

reply to post by adjensen

But the thing is...Matter and Energy are actually interchangeable. Plus Matter as in it's most basic form...a Hydrogen Atom...One Proton...One Electron...the electron is a Quantum Particle/Waveform of Energy so Matter contains Particles that have Mass as well as Energy. Split Infinity

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:40 PM by Iron7

I'm open to any possibility. Maybe we never even "die" just go to a "new beginning".

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:43 PM by RedBird

The philosophy of Alan Watts typifies the modern pantheistic view of heaven, I think. His lecture on G K Chesterton contains a discussion of Heaven intended to demonstrate man's oneness with the higher principle and all of creation. It's a fascinating discussion, but ultimately unconvincing.

The idea is basically that in a perfect paradise, we would be able to manifest every reality and wish fulfillment we desired. After doing this for incomprehensible ages, we would get bored, and begin to create manifestations that would surprise us. And in order to make them more exciting, we would make ourselves forget who we were and what we were capable of while we were in them. This, argues Alan Watts, is the true nature of existence already. We are all God experiencing the universe in random, subjective ways.

The trouble with this philosophy is that it removes all impetus for action. All crimes and abuses may be excused since all experiences are equally valuable and all suffering is ultimately illusory.

The other problem with this dogma is that it denies most human virtues. What is Love when there is only one thing, and that one thing is ultimately impersonal?

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:43 PM by RedBird

EDIT** Double Post

edit on 5-9-2012 by RedBird because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:43 PM by PrimitiveWorld

reply to post by adjensen

Both your alternatives are false, and if religous dogma wasnt in the way of peoples thinking, they would see that.

But its very powerful. People get brought up with it, so they believe it. And looking into other explainations is scary, since Christianity threatens you with Hell if you do that. Thats how they keep believers in line. Fear.

Ive learned through life that everything that is motivated by fear is a challenge to be overcome. Everything. Fear represents a limitation, which you grow from when you overcome it.

edit on 5-9-2012 by PrimitiveWorld because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:44 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by SplitInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

But the thing is...Matter and Energy are actually interchangeable.

Well, that's a bit of the point -- if time is of no relevance, and matter and energy are manipulable, who's to complain of it?

How is one to get bored, if time doesn't matter, and neither does the relationship between infinitive energy and infinitive matter?

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:46 PM by adjensen

Originally posted by PrimitiveWorld
reply to post by adjensen

Both your alternatives are false

How so? Divorce the religious aspects, and explain how they are false. This is a matter of philosophy, not of religion.

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:52 PM by PrimitiveWorld

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by PrimitiveWorld
reply to post by adjensen

Both your alternatives are false

How so? Divorce the religious aspects, and explain how they are false. This is a matter of philosophy, not of religion.

Actually not, since you can just ask people who leave their body what the experience is like. Leaving your body is exactly what happens when you die. Thats it. We all exist in multiple dimensions, there is no time, and you can be everywhere you want to instantanously. We are conciousness, not bodies. The body is just the vehicle. Emotions and your mind is part of the body, but your conciousness is not.

So thats my philosophy, and Ive left my body and been to these realms personally. Science will say its just chemistry in the brain. But they are in the dark ages about this, being stuck in the material world. Quantum physics is getting close to understanding though.

edit on 5-9-2012 by PrimitiveWorld because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:56 PM by AfterInfinity

reply to post by adjensen

Let's say that you like to play cards. Everlasting life means that you can invite friends over to play cards, and no one has to leave "because I'm tired" or "because I have work in the morning" or anything else. They can play cards for as long as they like -- you could host a card game, with people coming and going, for as long as you felt like holding it.

"You can have all the cake and ice cream and puppies and toys you want in heaven..."

That's what you just suggested in that quote. And that isn't an immature view? I find it hilarious, really. If we fail to abstain from the seven sins, "God" will use the seven sins to punish us. If we DO abstain, "God" will use the seven sins to reward us.

Yet another logical fallacy. Oh, my, who saw that coming?

reply posted on 5-9-2012 @ 11:58 PM by adjensen

reply to post by PrimitiveWorld

Well, star for you, but you're missing the point. This is a matter of philosophy, what we perceive the truth of time to be. It has nothing to do with personal chemistry or quantum mechanics.

Personally, I've seen enough of people re-defining quantum mechanics to be "magic", when it is, in fact, statistics applied to an unmeasurable (currently) level of behaviour. Once we have a better ability to measure what is going on at the quantum level, all that "magic" is going to go away.

reply posted on 6-9-2012 @ 12:00 AM by adjensen

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by adjensen

Let's say that you like to play cards. Everlasting life means that you can invite friends over to play cards, and no one has to leave "because I'm tired" or "because I have work in the morning" or anything else. They can play cards for as long as they like -- you could host a card game, with people coming and going, for as long as you felt like holding it.

"You can have all the cake and ice cream and puppies and toys you want in heaven..."

That's what you just suggested in that quote. And that isn't an immature view? I find it hilarious, really. If we fail to abstain from the seven sins, "God" will use the seven sins to punish us. If we DO abstain, "God" will use the seven sins to reward us.

Yet another logical fallacy. Oh, my, who saw that coming?

No, not really, it has nothing to do with God. Where did you come up with that?

It relates to time, and the absence thereof. God's existence, or lack thereof, doesn't matter to that philosophical discussion.

reply posted on 6-9-2012 @ 12:02 AM by TarzanBeta

reply to post by adjensen

I think even more revealing is the fact that people don't actually know what Heaven means.

But a cursory look at Genesis reveals very quickly what "Heaven" is.

Heaven is defined as, in Genesis, as the firmament in the midst of the waters below and the waters above - the firmament separated the waters and that firmament is, as Job said concerning God's work, "He hangs the earth on nothing."

Heaven is space.

How in the world could anyone be bored in space?!

Have you not looked up lately?

If we are to be given bodies capable of traveling the universe, how could you possibly be bored?

If people had learned the true definition of Heaven instead of the false idea of Heaven, things would make much more sense. As well, God is the only one without and yet also within the universe. The Father is the dimension in which this universe is set. As He said, not only is He in us, but WE ARE IN HIM.

The universe is not Him, be He is without it; above it, if you will. He is the infinite dimension within which this finite universe has been created.

Heaven is firmament of the universe. We call it "Sky" when we look out and look up.

How many people have dreamed of flying? And wished that they could just fly on earth alone - much more the entire universe!

And yet didn't He also say that we will be given wings like an eagle? "Two wings like an eagle" even.

He means we will fly. We will not be bored with our everlasting life!

And what is so bad about a nice day hanging out on the clouds strumming a harp? Have you even heard a harp before? Have you ridden on a cloud?

I don't know, but that still sounds pretty intriguing to me. It beats suffering physical and mental torture all the day long.

Besides, I'm never bored even now. I haven't...ever been bored. I don't relate to people that say they are bored. IN fact, people who say they are bored annoy me greatly. There are a plethora of things to do in this limited life even. There is no boredom for me. Even being stuck in a room with no food, no rest, staring at the wall - my imagination serves me well even then.

People who say they are bored are simply boring and lazy people and they are practically begging God for a challenge in their life to keep them busy. Sometimes it is better to challenge ourselves than to ask God for the challenge... He is very intelligent. He will come up with something for you to do.

And ironically, that thing might very well be to force you into more of your "boredom" so that you learn to overcome it and learn to use your imagination.

And by "you" and "your", I mean all those that are reading who find themselves frequently thinking to themselves or even saying, "there is nothing to do."

But I am not attempting to convict those who are suffering greatly. I understand the defeat. I understand the desire to lay down and quit because so many things are so hard. That is not the same thing as boredom. That is called strength training. And it is horrible, I know. I do not mean to convict you or to place another burden of worry or insecurity into your mind. Be at ease.

I am speaking specifically to those people that are complaining they are bored because what they have, in actuality, is PEACE.

And those who will complain about peace... well, don't worry. Your peace won't last forever. Fret not!

As a final note, Eternity verses Everlasting Life (and the following statement is based ONLY on the context in which the OP chose to use these terms) - Eternity is what you experience when your hand is sitting on a burning stove. Everlasting Life is what you experience when having a conversation with the beautiful woman.

Yes, I just equated Einstein's laymen description of his theory of relativity to the idealism described by the OP.

reply posted on 6-9-2012 @ 12:03 AM by AfterInfinity

reply to post by adjensen

The moment you mention heaven, "God" becomes involved. Highly pertinent subject matter.

And if you're talking about the absence of time, then you're saying that eternity and everlasting life are the same thing. Which makes your thread a moot one.

Unless you want to clarify?

edit on 6-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

reply posted on 6-9-2012 @ 12:06 AM by AfterInfinity

reply to post by TarzanBeta

If heaven is outer space, then what is hell? I assume you know the answer to that as well.

Additionally, how does our behavior have any bearing on whether or not we go to space? After all, if sinners don't go to heaven, then obviously space isn't heaven...considering the Russians have already been there.

Joking, joking! Jeez.

reply posted on 6-9-2012 @ 12:07 AM by AfterInfinity

reply to post by adjensen

On that subject, time is a name for a certain quality of the reality around us. Just like distance and height, we have time. A term for a property of our reality. The word 'time' has one sole purpose: to express that particular perceived property in our reality.

And we can even measure that property...in minutes, hours, days, and weeks.

edit on 6-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

Pages: << 1 2 3 4 >> ^^TOP^^