The Phoenix: Myth or Reality?

I happen to be reading some very old texts today... and i came across a passage in one of them that mentioned the Phoenix. The particular way it was mentioned struck me as curious...

In the 25th chapter of First Epistle of Clement the author speaks of the Phoenix being a symbol of one of the tenents of "Christian Faith". The rising of this bird from the dead can be seen as a symbolic representation of the "resurection"...

What caught my eye was the fact that the author of this book mentions the bird as alive and living in Arabia.

This book is from approx. 1800 years ago...

Let us consider that wonderful sign [of the resurrection] which takes place in Eastern lands, that is, in Arabia and the countries round about. There is a certain bird which is called a phœnix. This is the only one of its kind, and lives five hundred years. And when the time of its dissolution draws near that it must die, it builds itself a nest of frankincense, and myrrh, and other spices, into which, when the time is fulfilled, it enters and dies. But as the flesh decays a certain kind of worm is produced, which, being nourished by the juices of the dead bird, brings forth feathers. Then, when it has acquired strength, it takes up that nest in which are the bones of its parent, and bearing these it passes from the land of Arabia into Egypt, to the city called Heliopolis. And, in open day, flying in the sight of all men, it places them on the altar of the sun, and having done this, hastens back to its former abode. The priests then inspect the registers of the dates, and find that it has returned exactly as the five hundredth year was completed

Is it possible that this bird actually existed at one time?

Can anything live for 500 years for that matter, or was that just part of the Myth of the Phoenix?

This bird has been mentioned in numerous places in very early texts, including many from earlier then this particular book ( Flavius Philostratus, Vedic texts etc)

Is there any reality to this mysterious bird?

What are your thoughts?

www.bigsiteofamazingfacts.com...

Below is quote from site


Was the Phoenix Ever a Real Bird?

The phoenix never existed. It was a large bird, much like an eagle, written about in Greek mythology and based on ancient Egyptian legends.

Only one phoenix was said to have lived at a time. This gold and red bird, always a male, lived in Arabia. Each phoenix lived for exactly 500 years, and when it was about to die, it gathered twigs and spices and built a nest. Then the phoenix sat on the nest and waited patiently for a ray of sun to set the nest on fire

Some say the phoenix was mentioned in the book of Job...

29:18

“I said, ‘I will die with my nest,
and I will live as long as a phoenix;

Of course this depends on the translation used... most versions say use the word "sand"... but apparently "ḥol" can be translated as Phoenix as well

Now if people believe everything in the bible is truth... does the phoenix have any truth to it?

reply to post by Akragon


Yes though the Phoenix is Mythological it does have meaning in a metaphorical sense.
In the same way that Parables hold meaning though they are fiction
In my opinion

I think there are many metaphors from the ancient past that held a meaning to those who knew what they were reading, and how to read it. Unfortunately, many have been lost to time. Though there may be some who still understand at least some of them. Which is where secret societies sometimes come into the picture. "sacred knowledge". I can't recall the quote, but it seems Fulcanelli spoke of this in his own writings.

Could it have been real? Let's just say we don't know it all, but we sure like to think we do.

Notice the Parallel to that chapter in the First Epistle of Clement...

Its interesting that Jesus was called "the morning star" and the planet Venus was called the "star of the ship of the Bennu-Asar" (Asar is the Egyptian name of Osiris). Who was also resurected...

The Bennu was the sacred bird of Heliopolis. Bennu probably derives from the word weben, meaning "rise" or "shine." The Bennu was associated with the sun and represented the ba or soul of the sun god, Re. In the Late Period, the hieroglyph of the bird was used to represent this deity directly. As a symbol of the rising and setting sun, the Bennu was also the lord of the royal jubilee.

The Bennu was also associated with the inundation of the Nile and of the creation. Standing alone on isolated rocks of islands of high ground during the floods the heron represented the first life to appear on the primeval mound which rose from the watery chaos at the first creation. This mound was called the ben-ben. It was the Bennu bird's cry at the creation of the world that marked the beginning of time. The bennu thus was the got of time and its divisions -- hours, day, night, weeks and years.

The Bennu was also considered a manifestation of the resurrected Osiris and the bird was often shown pirched in his sacred willow tree.

The Bennu was known as the legendary phoenix to the Greeks. Herodotus, the Greek historian, says the following about the Bennu:

"Another sacred bird is the phoenix; I have not seen a phoenix myself, except in paintings, for it is very rare and only visits the country (so they say at Heliopolis) only at intervals of five hundred years, on the occasion of the death of the parent bird."
Herodotus goes on to record that the Bennu bird came from Arabia every 500 years carrying his father's body embalmed in an egg of myrrh. This Arabian bird however was said to resemble an eagle with brilliant gold and red plumage. Before the phoenix died it built a nest of incense twigs and laid down in it and died. From its body a small worm emerged that the sun's heat transformed into the new phoenix.

Another story says that the phoenix rose again from the burnt and decomposing remains of his old body and took these to Heliopolis, where he burned them.

The planet Venus was called the "star of the ship of the Bennu-Asar" (Asar is the Egyptian name of Osiris). The Bennu was also sometimes associated with Upper Egypt.

www.egyptianmyths.net...

It never ceases to amaze me at how pompous and presumptuous mankind has become.
He scoffs at things that he's never seen and calls them fairy tales and lies.
Yet, could not function for one hour of one day without electricity to power his frivolous toys.....most of which, he could not explain how they worked, nor repair them should they fail.

I think the OP has a very valid question.
I also think that like most "myths", it is based in a nugget of truth.

How significant of a nugget, who really knows? But I do believe that at one time there existed such a creature as to warrant the, what may seem fantastical to us whom have never witnessed it, descriptions that carried forth the imagery of it through the millennia.

reply to post by Akragon


Great reading you have quoted
Thank You

reply to post by stupid girl


Yes I agree - In fact Mythology is often real history/philosophy in story form
Like all Myths over time many layers of embroidery are added as new aspects are considered.
To think that the modern world contains more intelligent people is delusional.
So much of what is natural and real is lost in gaining a more artificial construct/Matrix

To truly understand our ancients we need to know their mind sets

reply to post by Akragon


Jesus is supposed to have spent many years in Egypt
I feel He must have come across the Ancient Philosophy there.
This Philosophy is Monotheist in it's nature and echoes of it are heard in Ancient Greek Philosophy.
The Greek scholars went to Egypt to learn of such things also.
Then we have the Gnostic Christians who took Ancient Wisdom and updated it as to be easier understood

Jesus of course in my mind at least had his own unique everyman way of teaching Wisdom that is as old as the hills.
Not wishing to be controversial but to explain my thinking be it right or wrong in other's eyes.
I believe Jesus to be a messenger of truth - A very special one who's words and deeds are not represented truly in later texts.

Originally posted by artistpoet
Then we have the Gnostic Christians who took Ancient Wisdom and updated it as to be easier understood

The Gnostic Christians took a popular figure of the day (Jesus) and tried to shoehorn him into a religion that predated him and he couldn't possibly be a part of. Their "ancient wisdom" was Platonic philosophy, a mythos that developed in the First Century (and was unrelated to Christ), and the teachings of a former Christian theologian who left the church after he was passed up for Bishop of Rome.

If there ever was a "tale that grew in the telling", it's gotta be the Gnostic Christians. Most people don't even know what Christ supposedly came to reveal, never mind what it actually was, yet you'll run across those today who claim to be Gnostics.

reply to post by adjensen


Thanks for your information.

Yes as far as I know Gnostic's did use the figure of Christ as a sort of Godhead symbol for one who attained Gnosis or "Knowing" but Christ to them was a state of mind.

My reading of Gnosticism is limited to a book named Jesus and the Godess - The Godess being Sophia representing wisdom.

Plato of course did journey to Egypt and was given knowledge of many things by the priests there.

As for Greek Philosophy - as I was referring to the Hermitica which Greek scribes claimed was information passed down from Egypt IE the writings of Thoth.
Thoth claimed to have knowledge that went back at least 50,000 years and a time of another civilization called Atland.

To me there are many complexity's involved

Regarding Jesus - I Believe him to be a real person if person is the right word.

Originally posted by artistpoet
reply to post by adjensen

 

Thanks for your information.

Yes as far as I know Gnostic's did use the figure of Christ as a sort of Godhead symbol for one who attained Gnosis or "Knowing" but Christ to them was a state of mind.

Actually, no, Christ didn't attain any knowledge -- he was, effectively, the messenger of the gods, bringing knowledge (the "Gnosis") to Earth. YOU attained said knowledge by becoming a student of a Gnostic master, and after a suitable number of years, assuming you showed yourself worthy, he'd let you in on the secret.

My reading of Gnosticism is limited to a book named Jesus and the Godess - The Godess being Sophia representing wisdom.

If you want to go to the original writings (not latter day inventions and re-interpretations,) your best friend is the Nag Hammadi texts, which you can read here: The Nag Hammadi Library, and I'd highly recommend Bart Ehrman's Lost Christianities as a scholarly overview of the differing interpretations of Jesus in the first few centuries after his birth.

Regarding Jesus - I Believe him to be a real person if person is the right word.

The Gnostics would say that it is not -- he was never here in material form.

reply to post by adjensen


Yes I did realize that Gnostic's did not believe Jesus was a real person.
Maybe I worded my post clumsily mixing up concepts

Thanks for links - though I am not sure if I will read all as I have a backlog of many things to read.
But it is appreciated.

reply to post by adjensen


You're Catholic correct?

How do you reconcile the "infancy Gospels" which are supposed to be a part of your churches accepted doctrine, with your statement "Christ didn't learn anything"... or Attain knowledge?

Originally posted by Akragon
How do you reconcile the "infancy Gospels" which are supposed to be a part of your churches accepted doctrine, with your statement "Christ didn't learn anything"... or Attain knowledge?

If you mean something like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, I wasn't aware that the text had been added to the canon. Probably because it wasn't. To the best of my knowledge, all of the "infancy gospels" are dated Second Century or later, were written to satisfy Christian curiosity about Christ's life prior to his ministry, and are not generally viewed as being particularly accurate.

At any rate, my comment was as regards the Gnostic view of Christ -- he had his Gnosis when he was still hanging around the Pleroma, he didn't come here to get it.

reply to post by Akragon


Its real in the same way UFOs are real. As psychophysical projections of archetypes of the collective unconscious in symbolic form. In the case of the Phoenix the archetype of rebirth. Same as Jesus.

So the Phoenix is relatively real. But then again so are we.

reply to post by Akragon


I know you a little well, somewhat through ats, but i wonder why you are studying all that, the lost books of the NT, when you claim that JC wasn't God. or something on that line. Not attacking just questioning.

On the other subject, why are you asking a question that you have to figure out yourself, i believe the phoenix as a real bird, although people dont believe in ANYTHING mythical or possible in this world such as gnomes and angels. we have to look at everything behind a veil as possibility . I thought all these things were invisable as well. All third eye stuff

reply to post by Jordan River

I know you a little well, somewhat through ats, but i wonder why you are studying all that, the lost books of the NT, when you claim that JC wasn't God. or something on that line. Not attacking just questioning.

Im sorry, i don't understand your question, but i'll take a stab at it...



I study all texts from the major factions of religion... Mainly to see what the wrirers were thinking... Even to try to get into the minds if those that were "close" to Jesus. The fact that he was not God comes from his own words, not from those that followed him. I have no need to rely on his followers words when he spelled it out perfectly. Though it does interest me to find out who said what... Its also interesting to note that most people that disagreed with the churches views at the time were labeled heretics and executed.

reply to post by Akragon


People believe in different things. Even a common priest know that everyone takes religion differently. Its those who take it for themselves as spiritualist