New Testament Fairy Tales

reply to post by borntowatch

It is hate when you blame only religion and God and deny humanity is at fault.

You still don't see it, do you? I, as an atheist, blame humanity for ALL of it's faults. The religious, however, want to credit god for every good thing that happens, but never EVER blame him for the bad.

Can you see it now? This isn't just a lack of critical thinking, it's a total absence of rational thinking.

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by borntowatch

 

It is hate when you blame only religion and God and deny humanity is at fault.

You still don't see it, do you? I, as an atheist, blame humanity for ALL of it's faults. The religious, however, want to credit god for every good thing that happens, but never EVER blame him for the bad.

Can you see it now? This isn't just a lack of critical thinking, it's a total absence of rational thinking.

I get it I get it
You hate Christians because we thank God for good things and blame man for bad things, all though you dont believe or care in God, just dont like us having an opinion...on anything that you disagree with???.
So if I can see something its your position that we (Christians) should only hold your opinion
I dont get it

and if we do credit God, whats the harm...I still dont get it.

Where is your rational thinking, I let you have your stupid beliefs, whatever they maybe.
You deny us ours because we thank an imaginary (according to you) God.
Why would you care.

Seriously if thats your best shot...

Oh no you want another Pol Pot year zero effort....Rational???

You hate Christians

reply to post by borntowatch


Once again, I don't hate christians. I hate religions and the belief in a god that does nothing, is nothing, and is used like a child's security blanket whenever things go wrong in one's life.

How would you feel about the human race if billions of grown adults believed in the all-powerful mailbox? No matter where you went people would say things like, Praise the mailbox. The mailbox works in mysterious ways. The mailbox loves you.

HOW STUPID IS THAT???? Wouldn't it get under your skin? And then you watch the news on how people are killing and dying for the mailbox. And, if you draw a picture of a mailbox, the extremist mailbox believers put a price on your head because they want you dead.

It's beyond insane to believe and/or to support this religion. It is not acceptable to claim that "Hey, that's not MY religion that people are using to kill each other with."

I know, I know, some people pray to the mailbox and get their prayers answered. And those that don't get their prayers answered, well, the mailbox knows what you need or don't need.

Religion - it's embarrassing.

reply to post by jiggerj


So you don't believe in a higher power? Remember, just because Christianity seems to have something of a monopoly on the whole 'higher power' ideal, doesn't mean they own the exclusive rights to it.

You can believe in a higher power and not be a Christian, or a Muslim, or whatever.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So you don't believe in a higher power? Remember, just because Christianity seems to have something of a monopoly on the whole 'higher power' ideal, doesn't mean they own the exclusive rights to it.

You can believe in a higher power and not be a Christian, or a Muslim, or whatever.

I believe that we should worship the planet. If we don't take care of it, we will all die.
I believe that I must protect you, otherwise I have no right to ask you to protect me.

I also believe that we have an obligation to stamp out foolish beliefs and stop them from spreading.

reply to post by jiggerj


Just let me add this clip.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So you don't believe in a higher power? Remember, just because Christianity seems to have something of a monopoly on the whole 'higher power' ideal, doesn't mean they own the exclusive rights to it.

You can believe in a higher power and not be a Christian, or a Muslim, or whatever.

I believe that we should worship the planet. If we don't take care of it, we will all die.
I believe that I must protect you, otherwise I have no right to ask you to protect me.

I also believe that we have an obligation to stamp out foolish beliefs and stop them from spreading.

I'm sure you've answered this question before but I can't remember. Have you been an atheist all your life? Were you raised in an atheist home? I'm just curious (I'm not trying to imply it has any imperative effect on the validity of your beliefs, just genuinely curious).

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So you don't believe in a higher power? Remember, just because Christianity seems to have something of a monopoly on the whole 'higher power' ideal, doesn't mean they own the exclusive rights to it.

You can believe in a higher power and not be a Christian, or a Muslim, or whatever.

I believe that we should worship the planet. If we don't take care of it, we will all die.
I believe that I must protect you, otherwise I have no right to ask you to protect me.

I also believe that we have an obligation to stamp out foolish beliefs and stop them from spreading.

I'm sure you've answered this question before but I can't remember. Have you been an atheist all your life? Were you raised in an atheist home? I'm just curious (I'm not trying to imply it has any imperative effect on the validity of your beliefs, just genuinely curious).

Raised a non-participating catholic. Did some church. Got deep into the bible in my late teens and early twenties. Found some contradictions in the bible, then some wholly illogical and unacceptable ideas, then some really stupid ideas, and the bible become a great work of pure fiction. And it was all uphill from there. Watched a lot of Hitchens debates, Dawkins, and now Harris.

But, I'm not completely an atheist. I am a truth seeker, ready to admit that the information needed to create the first living cell has me boggled. More and more, I don't believe in the Big Bang (rather a Little Bang that created our little region of the universe). I don't believe that a state of absolute nothing has ever existed. And I don't believe that a consciousness can exist without a machine to drive it (a physical brain or a computer).

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jiggerj

 

So you don't believe in a higher power? Remember, just because Christianity seems to have something of a monopoly on the whole 'higher power' ideal, doesn't mean they own the exclusive rights to it.

You can believe in a higher power and not be a Christian, or a Muslim, or whatever.

I believe that we should worship the planet. If we don't take care of it, we will all die.
I believe that I must protect you, otherwise I have no right to ask you to protect me.

I also believe that we have an obligation to stamp out foolish beliefs and stop them from spreading.

I'm sure you've answered this question before but I can't remember. Have you been an atheist all your life? Were you raised in an atheist home? I'm just curious (I'm not trying to imply it has any imperative effect on the validity of your beliefs, just genuinely curious).

Raised a non-participating catholic. Did some church. Got deep into the bible in my late teens and early twenties. Found some contradictions in the bible, then some wholly illogical and unacceptable ideas, then some really stupid ideas, and the bible become a great work of pure fiction. And it was all uphill from there. Watched a lot of Hitchens debates, Dawkins, and now Harris.

But, I'm not completely an atheist. I am a truth seeker, ready to admit that the information needed to create the first living cell has me boggled. More and more, I don't believe in the Big Bang (rather a Little Bang that created our little region of the universe). I don't believe that a state of absolute nothing has ever existed. And I don't believe that a consciousness can exist without a machine to drive it (a physical brain or a computer).

Thanks for your reply

So why not call yourself an agnostic? Do you get some kind of special decoder ring or badge for the atheist title?

Curious about your statement that absolute nothing has ever existed. Are you implying that the Universe is eternal, and cyclical? Could you clarify your opinons on the origin of the Universe for me? I'd be interested in hearing more

Also, to confirm, are you saying that you do not believe consciousness is possible outside of the physical realm? How would you reconcile this idea with the effect it has on quantum physics? I'm freakin terrible at math so I'm by no means a physicist but I thought there was evidence to suggest that certain quantum phenomenon acted differently when under observation? That seems to indicate there's more to it then just a hunk of grey matter, doesn't it?

Not trying to criticize your opinions, just curious and enjoy civil discourse.

Originally posted by jiggerj

You hate Christians

reply to post by borntowatch

 

Once again, I don't hate christians. I hate religions and the belief in a god that does nothing, is nothing, and is used like a child's security blanket whenever things go wrong in one's life.

How would you feel about the human race if billions of grown adults believed in the all-powerful mailbox? No matter where you went people would say things like, Praise the mailbox. The mailbox works in mysterious ways. The mailbox loves you.

HOW STUPID IS THAT???? Wouldn't it get under your skin? And then you watch the news on how people are killing and dying for the mailbox. And, if you draw a picture of a mailbox, the extremist mailbox believers put a price on your head because they want you dead.

It's beyond insane to believe and/or to support this religion. It is not acceptable to claim that "Hey, that's not MY religion that people are using to kill each other with."

I know, I know, some people pray to the mailbox and get their prayers answered. And those that don't get their prayers answered, well, the mailbox knows what you need or don't need.

Religion - it's embarrassing.

edit on 9/23/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Mailboxes or the earth, I see no difference. You want to worship the earth ?

How would you feel about the human race if billions of grown adults believed in the all-powerful earth? No matter where you went people would say things like, Praise the earth. The earth works in mysterious ways. The earth loves you.

HOW STUPID IS THAT???? Wouldn't it get under your skin? And then you watch the news on how people are killing and dying for the earth. And, if you draw a picture of a earth, the extremist earth believers put a price on your head because they want you dead.


Change one noun for another. I dont care what you worship, why does it bother you what I worship.
At the most my faith should inspire contempt from you, not hate.
You hate us because you have an imbalance.

Your embarrassing yourself with your bigotry

Oh and one more thing. If we worship the earth, why do good. Why try to be better. Whats wrong with being greedy selfish and violent to get away with whatever you want.
The earth is void of morals, what does your stupid earth worship offer...nothing

Heard Sam Harris make a good point once when he wondered why christians don't worship Sai Baba. He is credited with much the same miracles as christ and then some. Including materialising objects, various resurrection accounts. Unlike christ, we don't have to wonder whether there really was any such person, we don't have to rely on ancient 3rd hand rumours and myths from illiterate and superstitious 1st century peasants to confirm this. We know Sai Baba was real and can ask some of his millions of modern, western educated followers who claim to have seen his miracles first hand, some who were even resurrected. They will vouch for his miracles and his divinity.

Perhaps christians don't worship him because they see it as extremely likely to be a complete crock of.....(I would agree). Yet at the same time they have a firm belief in similar stories and lies from the 1st century and before, all shrouded obvious superstitious ignorance.

Cult psychology and the resulting religious delusions account for this IMO. No reasonable person, if they weren't brought up with religions such as christianity but heard them for the first time as sane, mature and educated adults could do anything other than laugh at just how ridiculous it is. It would seem more an affliction of the mind than something to rejoice. The practice of indoctrinating young innocent minds from an early age has a lot to answer for, it is a religious cult recruitment practice that should be banned. There should be no special dispensation of any kind (taxwise or other) given to any religion and they certainly should never have access to any public learning facility where they can infect young minds.

Perhaps then we would see a lot more people who can still think for themselves and with the capacity to be original, exploring spirituality. There could well be a universal higher power of some sort, though not the ridiculous god of mainstream religion. The idea that some imaginary being looks over you because you adhere to the right cult doctrine yet allows most of the world who don't adhere to suffer massively, is not just vain and self centred in the extreme, but perverse. This is a form of insanity.

We seem to be living in a world that operates on Darwinian principles, yet have evolved a mind that could allow us to transcend this. I can't help notice that mostly what are considered "virtues" go against the natural instincts that mother nature imbued us with. I doubt ancient myths have much to do with exploring spirituality, which would be a personal quest. Whatever truth or force there may be underlying this universe, it is obviously impersonal in that it cares no more for a race of humans than it does for a leaf on a tree.

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
The idea that some imaginary being looks over you because you adhere to the right cult doctrine yet allows most of the world who don't adhere to suffer massively, is not just vain and self centred in the extreme, but perverse. This is a form of insanity.

Or worse yet, it also allows suffering by those who have been born in a poor part of the world, even though they do adhere to the same cult doctrine.

Whatever force there may be is obviously impersonal in that it cares no more for a race of humans than it does for a leaf on a tree.

I believe that this is closer to the truth.

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum
Heard Sam Harris make a good point once when he wondered why christians don't worship Sai Baba. He is credited with much the same miracles as christ and then some. Including materialising objects, various resurrection accounts. Unlike christ, we don't have to wonder whether there really was any such person, we don't have to rely on ancient rumours and myths from illiterate and superstitious 1st century peasants to confirm this. We know Sai Baba was real and can ask some of his millions of modern, western educated followers who claim to have seen his miracles first hand, some who were even resurrected. They will vouch for his miracles and his divinity.

Perhaps christians don't worship him because they see it as extremely likely to be a complete crock of.....(I would agree). Yet at the same time they have a firm belief in stories and lies from the 1st century and before, in all of their obvious superstitious ignorance.

Cult psychology and the resulting religious delusions account for this IMO. No reasonable person, if they weren't brought up with religions such as christianity but heard them for the first time as sane, mature adults could do anything other than laugh at just how ridiculous it is. It would seem more an affliction of the mind than something to rejoice. The practice of indoctrinating young innocent minds from an early age has a lot to answer for, it is a religious cult recruitment practice that should be banned. There should be no special dispensation of any kind (taxwise or other) given to any religion and they certainly should never have access to any public learning facility where they can infect young minds.

Perhaps then we would see a lot more people who can still think for themselves and with the capacity to be original, exploring spirituality. There could well be a universal higher power of some sort, though not the ridiculous god of mainstream religion. The idea that some imaginary being looks over you because you adhere to the right cult doctrine yet allows most of the world who don't adhere to suffer massively, is not just vain and self centred in the extreme, but perverse. This is a form of insanity.

Whatever force there may be is obviously impersonal in that it cares no more for a race of humans than it does for a leaf on a tree.

This is the problem I have with the bulk of Atheist propagandists. They make emotional appeals when dealing with rational arguments.

See the debate between William Lane Craig and Cristopher Hitchens as a good example. When Hitchens fails to prove God does not exist, he must fall back on emotional appeals to the audience as to why Christianity has got it wrong instead of debating the real issue. Sam Harris did exactly that in his debate with Craig as well (though I will admit Harris did a much better job of it, and quite possibly won the debate).

As to what you are saying regarding Sai Baba, it's a ridiculous oversight. Christians don't worship Sai Baba because Christianity is an Abrahamic Religion, and thus there is only one God. Christians aren't even supposed to worship Jesus (The man). Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah based on prophecies he fulfilled written before his birth, and based on acts which he did during his life, as well as after his death.

Sai Baba does not have 1300 years (AT LEAST) of prophecy preceding him. Jesus did.

Now I can see your argument already...

"what if Sai Baba DID? Would you convert to Sai Babaism?"

What, pray tell, does any of this have to do with the nature of the universe, it's origins, and whether or not there was a creator? It doesn't. Emotional appeals to a very easily manipulated audience. This is precisely the tactic used by every single atheist I've ever heard.

"God can't exist because religion and people are flawed".

And you call us primitive thinkers?

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

This is the problem I have with the bulk of Atheist propagandists. They make emotional appeals when dealing with rational arguments.

It should be clear from my preceding post, that I am not an atheist.

Aside from that, there is very little that could be called rational about your belief.

As to what you are saying regarding Sai Baba, it's a ridiculous oversight. Christians don't worship Sai Baba because Christianity is an Abrahamic Religion, and thus there is only one God. Christians aren't even supposed to worship Jesus (The man). Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah based on prophecies he fulfilled written before his birth, and based on acts which he did during his life, as well as after his death.

Sai Baba does not have 1300 years (AT LEAST) of prophecy preceding him. Jesus did.

Yet no one really knows if there was any such person...I think you missed my point. If you understand why you doubt Sai Baba and his miracles/divinity, you will understand why people doubt christ. Preceding mythology and "prophecies" notwithstanding.

Now I can see your argument already...

"what if Sai Baba DID? Would you convert to Sai Babaism?"

No. Nor would I worship a 1st century version of the same thing.

What, pray tell, does any of this have to do with the nature of the universe, it's origins, and whether or not there was a creator?

Not much. About the same as christianity...

"God can't exist because religion and people are flawed".

And you call us primitive thinkers?

It is very likely that "something" exists, some underlying or universal cause or force, just not the imaginary god of your ridiculous and primitive myth.

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

This is the problem I have with the bulk of Atheist propagandists. They make emotional appeals when dealing with rational arguments.

It should be clear from my preceding post, that I am not an atheist.

Aside from that, there is very little that could be called rational about your belief.

As to what you are saying regarding Sai Baba, it's a ridiculous oversight. Christians don't worship Sai Baba because Christianity is an Abrahamic Religion, and thus there is only one God. Christians aren't even supposed to worship Jesus (The man). Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah based on prophecies he fulfilled written before his birth, and based on acts which he did during his life, as well as after his death.

Sai Baba does not have 1300 years (AT LEAST) of prophecy preceding him. Jesus did.

Yet no one really knows if there was any such person...I think you missed my point. If you understand why you doubt Sai Baba and his miracles/divinity, you will understand why people doubt christ. Preceding mythology and "prophecies" notwithstanding.

Now I can see your argument already...

"what if Sai Baba DID? Would you convert to Sai Babaism?"

No. Nor would I worship a 1st century version of the same thing.

What, pray tell, does any of this have to do with the nature of the universe, it's origins, and whether or not there was a creator?

Not much. About the same as christianity...

"God can't exist because religion and people are flawed".

And you call us primitive thinkers?

It is very likely that "something" exists, just not your ridiculous and primitive myth.

edit on 24-9-2012 by Cogito, Ergo Sum because: for the heck of it.

My ridiculous and primitive myth? Well then! Thanks for the attempt at open discussion!

I would add to your star count for successfully trolling me but I figure you'll get enough on your own "merits".

ETA: Oh look! You already got one!

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

My ridiculous and primitive myth? Well then! Thanks for the attempt at open discussion!

I would add to your star count for successfully trolling me but I figure you'll get enough on your own "merits".

ETA: Oh look! You already got one!

edit on 24-9-2012 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

Fair enough.

Though I would like to make myself clearer, as I usually have to in these debates. You, I don't really know, yet I see no reasson to suppose that you are anything other than a nice intelligent person. In fact I have known people with even more ridiculous beliefs than yours that I know are wonderful, intelligent and worthwhile people whom I admired in many ways. This however, doesn't change how I view there beliefs, or yours.

You are not your beliefs. Your (what appears to be) christian beliefs are something I have little time for. You personally on the other hand, as a fellow member of my species, I do have time for.

Originally posted by Cogito, Ergo Sum

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

My ridiculous and primitive myth? Well then! Thanks for the attempt at open discussion!

I would add to your star count for successfully trolling me but I figure you'll get enough on your own "merits".

ETA: Oh look! You already got one!

edit on 24-9-2012 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

Fair enough.

Though I would like to make myself clearer, as I usually have to in these debates. You, I don't really know, yet I see no reasson to suppose that you are anything other than a nice intelligent person. In fact I have known people with even more ridiculous beliefs than yours that I know are wonderful, intelligent and worthwhile people whom I admired in many ways. This however, doesn't change how I view there beliefs, or yours.

You are not your beliefs. Your beliefs are something I have little time for. You personally on the other hand, as a fellow member of my species, I do have time for.

Well then sir, I suppose I should thank you for justifying my existence

Originally posted by DeadSeraph

Well then sir, I suppose I should thank you for justifying my existence

Though the "sir" gave me a chuckle, I am afraid you have me at a loss there.

I'm starting a new Christian based Religion for Geniuses who believe in God...

I'm calling it, AMENSA...!

reply to post by jiggerj

I believe that we should worship the planet. If we don't take care of it, we will all die.
I believe that I must protect you, otherwise I have no right to ask you to protect me.

I also believe that we have an obligation to stamp out foolish beliefs and stop them from spreading.

Hear Hear! Believe it or not, I think people in Ancient Times did worship and honor Mother Earth, in fact I have found that most every Ancient Culture worshipped a Female Goddess avatar, and called Her Gaia, or simply Mother Earth. Then the Church came, with their priests and soldiers, and they virtually stamped out all forms of Earth/Goddesses Worship in favor of an outside Male God figure who is actually three beings in one, much like the Maiden/Mother/Crone of Goddess based religions. The Male God people decided to dominate the Earth for their own agendas, preserving only their own worthless skins, and damning the planet to a certain destruction. Of course then came the fantastic opportunity to use this destruction to prove their book real, although I cannot see much of a future for them, in the long run.