New Testament Fairy Tales

reply to post by NewAgeMan


Why do you even ask? You know that you are not going to give anything offered a fair shake.

Nothing is going to swing you away from the idea in the thread linked in your signature.

reply to post by jiggerj

Thanks for your reply, CW. Yes, there is a lot of wisdom in the bible, but we don't need the bible for that wisdom. How hard is it for civilized man to understand cooperation? As in, if you don't steal from me, I won't steal from you; you don't sleep with my wife and I won't sleep with your wife.

Apparently very hard for civilized man to understand! Look all around us...every day that passes brings less civilization from the human race! Albeit not everyone, but there is blatant disregard for peoples' possessions including seducing other's spouses. So many people appear to have the mindset, "every man for himself,"as they covetously, without regret make their move! And "the S..T hasn't even hit the fan yet", so imagine the uncivilized scenario that awaits us...not a pretty picture from what I've gathered!

reply to post by Cancerwarrior

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
For the longest time, only monks and the clergy could read or write.

Not true, and not really relevant anyway. Though it was uncommon for the lower classes to read or write, many folks outside the clergy could as well. Regardless, as I stated, you can still find the original fragments and read them to this day.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
The books that the council of nicea could tweak and make fit into their agenda were put in the christian cannon and the ones that were detrimental to their agenda were tossed aside and forgotten.

The only place that the Council of Nicaea was involved with the writing of the Bible was in Dan Browns fictional story The DaVinci Code. In reality, besides being almost 200 years after St. Irenaeus 'Against Heresies', the Council of Nicaea was mainly involved in dealing with the Arianism and the writing of the Nicene Creed. There was nothing whatsoever about cannonization of the Bible during the council of Nicaea, and that didn't happen until the Council of Trent in response to the Protestant Reformation, about 1000 years later...

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
I've read the Gnostic gospels too and many of them portray Jesus as alot more human than the church would have you believe. Maybe thats why they were thrown out.

If you want to know why they were thrown out, then read 'Against Heresies: On the Detection and Overthrow of the So Called Gnosis written by St Irenaeus. The Gnostic teachings sought to supplant Greek mysticism into Christianity, and subvert the original message of the Gospel.

The purpose of Against Heresies was to refute the teachings of various Gnostic groups; apparently, several Greek merchants had begun an oratorial campaign praising the pursuit of "gnosis" in Irenaeus' bishopric. Another popular theory states that a group of Gnostics known as the Valentinians remained part of the early Christian church, taking part in regular church celebrations despite their radical differences. It is also said that Gnostics would secretly meet outside of regular church activity where they would discuss their "secret knowledge" and scripture that pertains to it. As bishop, Irenaeus felt obligated to keep a close eye on the Valentinians and to safeguard the church from them. In order to fulfil this duty, Irenaeus educated himself and became well informed of Gnostic doctrines and traditions.[6] This eventually led to the compilation of his treatise.
It appears however, that the main reason Irenaeus took on this work was because he felt that Christians in Asia and Phrygia especially needed his protection from Gnostics, for they did not have as many bishops to oversee and help keep problems like this under control (probably only one bishop was assigned to a number of communities).[7] Therefore, due to the issue of distance between Irenaeus (who was in the western Roman province of Gaul) and the orthodox Christian community of Asia, Irenaeus found that writing this treatise would be the best way to offer them guidance.
Until the discovery of the Library of Nag Hammadi in 1945, Against Heresies was the best surviving contemporary description of Gnosticism.
This publication is historically important as the dating of the publication is irrefutable and the document is amongst the earliest non-controversial confirming documentations for many of the sayings of Jesus and the Letters of Paul.

Originally posted by jiggerj
In another thread it was suggested that I read the New Testament. Admittedly, it's been years since I've done this, but I used to read it often. Like the religious today, I allowed my eyes to glaze over the utterly ridiculous parts. I don't do that anymore. For instance, the following are considered the wise words of Jesus:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?

If this is such great advice why don't we all just quit our jobs. Let's teach our kids that when they grow up they have no need to save money for the future, no need to spend money on food and clothing. Yep, real super advice.
----------------------------------------
And then there's this from the NT.

Matthew 27: The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Really? I mean, REALLY? And the mature religious adults with an IQ over 80 believe this happened? Come on now.
-------------------------------------
Religion has been an ongoing conspiracy against the masses for thousands of years. Isn't it time to really look at what you're buying into?

edit on 9/4/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

While some responders believe that you are seeking confirmation about the alleged fairy tales of the Bible, others think that you may actually be searching for guidance in an attempt to reclaim your begotten Faith.
I reside firmly in the latter group. And the Lord God has led me to share with you, this reminder. I'm sure you will understand the Why...

AKJV John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: you believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know. 5 Thomas said to him, Lord, we know not where you go; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me......
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.....
25 These things have I spoken to you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give to you: not as the world gives, give I to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid...
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world comes, and has nothing in me.

The Lord Jesus, is the Way, the Truth, and the Life...I see that He resides in you.
And, know that your emptiness is because the prince of this world, has taken control of it. And as his worldly power takes hold of those around you, it also works to undo as much Faith as it can.

Where we fail as Christians, is in our lack of ability to discern the Truth from the deceptor.
It's all there in black and white, with a little Red. Read the Red, and the fairytales will shine bright with the Truth.

God Bless

Two great storys both linked to a simple yet very important theme.
This world has no value for the Christian. We have only one important calling. Preach Jesus
The Christian is not to be concerned with the affairs of the world, only to carry out what Jesus has asked us to do. The other issue is that we are not of this earth, this earth has no hold over our lives, we are visitors who are travelling home to the new promise. Jesus Kingdom. That the grave has no hold over those in Christ. We as Christians, who are holy through Christ's sacrifice are free from the grave.
This is a message to Christians, not pagans.
Its not for you, you are not meant to understand it. Your world your existence is not part of ours, our hope is not in the grave as is yours. Ours is in the risen Messiah, Jesus. He conquered the grave and asked us to extend His message to all.
Turn it down as you see fit.

reply to post by trekwebmaster


There's a difference between "prove" and "give credence to". To prove is to say, "Hey, this is undeniably true." To give credence to is to say, "We don't know for a fact that it happened, but this supports the theory that it did."

All we can do at this time is give credence. And in any case, sometimes the question is more powerful than the answer...especially when we might not get a coherent answer right now, if you catch my meaning.

reply to post by defcon5


Reading and writing was not common at all in the other socio-economic classes. Kings and Generals did not care for it because it was "monks work". And the Nicea council had everything to do with the way the Bible has been put together. The sect of Gnostic christians (mainly the essenes) taught that God is in you and you only need to look within towards the "divine spark" to find him. You dont have to go to church and you dont have to give God money and nobody (especially another flawed human being) can interpret God to you. Only you can find him. These teachings would not go over with the church well because they wanted people dependent on them. After all, Go to church, confess your sins, give 10 percent of what you own and on and on are the basic tenets of being a good Christian right?

And if Constantine the great really believed in this new religion that he instituted why did he practice polytheism until the day he died? Because he knew the truth maybe? That the bible and the christian faith was instituted as a means of controlling the plebs. You have to look a the big picture and see what was going on in the world then. Rome was going broke and it was much cheaper instead of bread and circuses to institute a faith that teaches vows of chastity and poverty (for everyone except the church of course) and making people believe that you will get your reward when you are dead. Sorry but i don't believe for two seconds that Christianity came about because the guys in charge were just oh-so worried about everyones souls. Its much more plausible to me that the rulers at the time were much more interested in keeping and expanding their own power. After all the rulers today do the exact same thing. Claim that they are doing things "for the good of the people" when in the end their agenda serves only themselves. Maybe thats another reason there has been such a steady steep decline in people who say they are Christian nowadays. Because there are other much better distractions in place today. Religion is not needed as it once was because now there are TV reality shows, movies, computer games, internet, Ipads, Iphones, Ipods you name it.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Haven't you in your long life ever got the sense that somehow everything seemed to be working out ok, and even though you can't always get what you want, if you try sometimes, (but not with worry or an excessive attachment to an outcome) you just might find you get what you need..

In all honesty, no. I've found that I've gotten what I have worked for, I didn't get what I didn't work for, and for good or ill I got what I deserved.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior


The Council of Nicaea was well documented, and its purposes well stated. Despite what conspiracy anti-christian fiction you've been reading about, none of it had to do with the 'Essenes'. The purpose of the council was:

The agenda of the synod included:
1. The Arian question regarding the relationship between God the Father and Jesus; i.e. are the Father and Son one in divine purpose only or also one in being
2. The date of celebration of the Paschal/Easter observation
3. The Meletian schism
4. The validity of baptism by heretics
5. The status of the lapsed in the persecution under Licinius.

As far as reading, there are no records of literacy from that period. However, its known that All Nobles were literate, as well as many 'middle class' merchants, scholars, lawyers, etc...None of whom were members of the clergy. This is why the RCC sought to keep the Bible in Latin, a language only taught in higher learning, to keep the commoners from access to the Bible. This is also why Martin Luther sought to put the Bible into common German, so that people could witness for themselves how broadly the RCC was interpreting the Scriptures.
Now if the RCC had been able to manipulate the contents of the Bible, then Luther's act would not have been the big deal that it was. Far too many copies of the scriptures had been around for far too long for them to be able to change what was written. This is why the RCC had to instead rely on concepts such as 'Papal Infallibility' to justify their abuses of interpreting the scripture.

reply to post by defcon5


OK, well lets pretend for a second that the bible was put together because rulers were concerned about the souls of the commoners and did not have an agenda. I'm curious to know why do you think Constantine never converted to Christianity himself? He practically made the RCC and if he made it law for everyone to practice this new religion, why was it not good enough for him? That alone should be enough to make anyone suspect.

reply to post by Cancerwarrior


The first man to write a commonly available bible in the common tongue that was readable by the common man, was in fact Martin Luther:

Luther Bible
Luther's German Bible and its widespread circulation facilitated the emergence of a standard, modern German language for the German-speaking peoples throughout the Holy Roman Empire, an empire extending through and beyond present-day Germany. It is also considered a landmark in German literature, with Luther's vernacular style often praised by modern German sources for the forceful vigor ("kraftvolles Deutsch")with which he translated the Holy Scripture.

He had no allegiance to the RCC, quite the opposite. He was not a ruler, was not trying to control anyone, and his version of the bible is still available to this day. If you doubt the authenticity of the RCC translations of the Bible, then try reading his...

Constantine was the head of all the Roman Pagan Churches, the Pontifex Maximus, or today what we call the Holy Pontiff. Back then though, he lead a country where there were still many pagan worshipers. He did not make it illegal to be a pagan, and allowed religious freedom. He most likely gave a fair shake to all religions because of his station, and wish to not instigate a religious schism in his country. Its also possible that he was simply hedging his bets, choosing all religions because he could not chose any particular one as being the only one.

reply to post by defcon5


The bible had been established long before Luther ever led the Reformation. Anytime a lowly monk not only thumbs his nose at the RCC, but tells them exactly what the 99 things they are doing wrong it will be taken as a big deal. When the RCC was first founded there were many different types of Christianity and many types of religions. If Constantine was truly for religious freedom then why did he feel it necessary to make just one version of Christianity do you think?

And the council of Nicea may not have actually made the Christian canon as we know it today, they certainly set a precedent and guided it.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
The bible had been established long before Luther ever led the Reformation.

And before either the Council of Nicaea or Constantine, as I showed you above.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
Anytime a lowly monk not only thumbs his nose at the RCC, but tells them exactly what the 99 things they are doing wrong it will be taken as a big deal.

The final act of rebellion on the part of Luther was to translate the Bible. Prior to Luther, the RCC had be desperately trying to keep the bible out of the common mans hands, because they were abusing their interpretations for money and control.

Please note that I am saying here interpretations not translations...!

When Luther handed over the commonly readable bible, man could see how far the RCC was twisting their interpretations for both control and money.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
When the RCC was first founded there were many different types of Christianity and many types of religions. If Constantine was truly for religious freedom then why did he feel it necessary to make just one version of Christianity do you think?

As Pontifex Maximus he was in charge of jus divinum. That means that he had to have one interpretation of the laws of that religion, so he could enforce them. This applied to all Romes religions, not just Christianity. There were not multiple versions of any of the other pagan religions that I am aware of within the Roman Empire either:

His real power lay in the administration of jus divinum or divine law;[15] the information collected by the pontifices related to the Roman religious tradition was bound in a corpus which summarized dogma and other concepts.

So he would want one version of any religion, so he could administer jus divinum for each religion.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
And the council of Nicea may not have actually made the Christian canon as we know it today, they certainly set a precedent and guided it.

There is no historical record of the Council of Nicaea doing anything other then what is listed above.

reply to post by defcon5


I was raised Lutheran until I moved out of my parents house. I went to church every Sunday, studied catechism, was an alcolyte, an usher, did everything a good little Lutheran boy should. Thank God I've truly seen religion for what it is. Christians often trumpet the bible as the infallible word of God. And therein lies the problem. God himself did not create the Bible and hand it down from the heavens. Men did. Men with power and influence. As anyone that looks at history can tell you, men with power and influence are concerned with one main thing, keeping their power and influence. Christianity is no different. I bet if Jesus were alive today, he would be much different than what has been portrayed in the NT. I somehow doubt that "Noone comes through the father except through me" would have been one of his tenets. I bet it read originally more like "noone comes to the father except through their own divine spark." Truth resonates in your heart, so take what resonates with you and leave the rest. I abhor religion, but I enjoy a relationship with my God and creator. All without a pastor that is constantly telling you what God is, and without a church judging you on if you are living right. If I die today I would be confident that I would be with God because I want to. I somehow doubt that many Christians are so confident. If you go strictly by the Bible, it tells you that God is some external authority figure that no matter what you do can never be pleased because you are "born in sin". The God I have come to know and love is not like that at all. The world would be a much better place IMHO if people would quit relying on other people telling them what God is and find him themselves. I think thats what Jesus truly meant when he said "seek and ye shall find."

reply to post by jiggerj

but to come up with new ideas for me to mull over.

I hope you find what you are looking for.

As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So pants my soul for You, O God.
My soul thirsts for God, for the living God.
When shall I come and appear before God?
My tears have been my food day and night,
While they continually say to me,
“Where is your God?”

Why are you cast down, O my soul?
And why are you disquieted within me?

Hope in God;

For I shall yet praise Him,

The help of my countenance and my God.

reply to post by jiggerj


In the first quote Jesus is just saying don't worry!

When I lost my business my car ( magnum 06) broke down with a blown engine, I had one month in my lease to go and couldn't pay it, got kicked out and my two kids went to my parents for a couple of months and I began taking care of an elderly woman.

Got a pos car with no air and was very DOWN as my situation left me feeling so helpless.

I kept telling God I would keep the faith/ hope things will turn around and wasn't going to worry because he would provide.

Without hope within I could have easily given up on everything.

The above statement rings very true for me throughout my life as it has been a HARD journey!!

Having a few friends ( one just the other day) kill themself because they had no hope in sight saddens me because some days I feel as though I have enough for all of us.

We get through this " earth school" by having hope in the darkest of storms that when this storm is over, the Sun will shine on us, dry us off, and show us there is another way.

So yes, LIFE is more important...... we are promised LIFE and no longer will have death.

In the grand scheme of things food is everywhere, it's abundant and readily available in the Now, whereas Life is offered through the Earth ( matter mixed with light) until atonement and then, LIFE (only LIGHT) becomes abundant.

Reading the Bible is like reading any other book IMO. Don't get stuck on a passage, just read it like a book ( front to back) a few times and THEN try deciphering mans word over Gods. It becomes pretty clear what is and what isn't " truth". Matter is manipulated and can trick the eyes, so deciphering has got to come into play here on Earth. It's a daily thing, deciphering that is.

Once read like a book you may notice like I did that Light and Dark seem to reign throughout the text. You may notice God becoming less angry with us in the New Testamant. He settles down once there is a plan set out for his children. Light seems to represent his nature while darkness seems to represent matter manipulating at every chance.

Just some thoughts... :-)

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by jiggerj

 

"Don't worry" is bad advice is it?

edit on 4-9-2012 by NewAgeMan because: (no reason given)

You take the 'Don't worry' out of its context. If I remember, Jesus also added something about how the birds and animals are always fed. What he failed to mention was that animals have to work for it. Their necessities are not handed to them. Lions have to hunt. Birds have to build nests. Ever see a bird flying away from a nest, returning with food for the young, flying away, returning... That's a LOT of work!

As to the other, I don't take everything at face value and by word of mouth some things can get slipped in that were based on little more than rumor, but what might be referred to there is an earthquake that occured the day of the cross whereby bodies fell out of tombs, with the bodies alive part added, but spiritually anything's possible.

By saying that you don't take everything at face value (and I don't even know if you're religious), if you are like most Christians, then what I hear you saying is that the part about the saints rising from the dead is probably not true and not believable, but still believe that one man did it - Jesus.

The difference is...you ever seen an animal worrying? And, aside from a few animals that do store up food for the winter, have you seen any animals take MORE than what they need, based on the FEAR that there will not be enough in the future?
The bible specifically says the Lord helps those who help themselves. No one says hard work isn't necessary. But the worry and the fear...those are unnecessary.

As for the bodies, I don't believe they are talking physical bodies. They are talking spiritual souls. It is out goal to become 'enlightened' beings on this planet. That's why Jesus, Buddha, and all the prophets have come: To teach us how to raise ourselves up from this low, low, physical earth plane. Many (most) people do not 'ascend' before they physically die. Perhaps, come one day, there will be an overall Earth ascension, and even those who have died without ascension will finally be able to join.

I'm not Christian. I'm not any religion. Most (and again, not all) Christians do not understand what is going on. Most people in general do not understand what is going on. We are here, not to collect money and wealth and clothes and power, but to advance spiritually, as loving, compassionate, empathetic souls. The 'prophets' came to remind us of this. But our Prophets never made a Profit off what they taught. They didn't need to. So don't believe the church and don't believe what other ignorant people are blindly following, but listen to what you already know.
There's a Love that never changes, no matter what you've done.

Originally posted by NewAgeMan
reply to post by LightBreeze

 

Are you sure, and if so, how can you be so sure? I would like to better understand these bold proclamations.

The undestanding that the NT is a Flavian fairy tale from a literary standpoint is a simple one. The acceptance is God almighty difficult since it requires that the NT be ditched as a historical document, that "Jesus Christ" has any historicity at all.

Sure? Yes, I am very sure of this however it takes time to unhook old, ingrained, erroneous beliefs and replace them with easily seen, incontrovertible evidence of the Flavian corruption of the Messianic, militaristic jewish rebellion against Roma.

In short, the "Messiah" is Titus Flavius, the writers of the NT are Flavian authors (Josephus Flavius primarily), the preministry of "Jesus Christ" is nothing more than a mocking reproduction of the OT itself. "The Son Of man" is Titus (see the Arch of titus for confirmation) who, as did many scholars, called himself the "Messiah".

No longer belonging to the aforementioned faith, I hope I can respond to these as best as I can.

- In the subsequant 26th and 27th verses, it says:
"Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your life[a]?"

In other words, just as the "birds of the air" don't fret about tomorrow, they are free from unnatural fears of things that haven't even happened yet. Life is far more vibrant and beautiful than worrying about clothes or food for tomorrow, be happy for what you have today and stop fearing what the future may or may not hold for you.

- The Bible is full of what is called "apocalyptic language." This is especially evident in prophetic writings such as Revelations. Apocalyptic writing was full of symbolism and metaphor and was very popular in Jewidh literature around that time. They would have understood that particular use of imagery easily. Just because you don't doesn't take away it's value and meaning.

reply to post by jiggerj


I believe your first quote is from Matthew chapter 6 verse 25. Fully formed, this teaching of Jesus shows the depth of our Creators desired involvement in the daily life of each portion of Humankind. We are taught that our life should not be a day-to-day preoccupation with getting. Rather we should live a life of grace accepting our Creators desire and plan to give to us. We are instructed in the proper relationship with the One Who loves us most. This relationship includes an intimate hour-to-hour, day-to-day faith in our Creators understanding of our every need and desire. It is a result of a total sharing of our life with the One who gave us our life. Many of us reject this desired closeness because of the shame we feel due to some of the desires we experience and want. So some choose to satisfy their shameful desires, even to calling them needs, and turn away from such a close relationship with our Creator, preferring to live a “freer” life. In so doing, they shut themselves off from the constant supply they could have and are thus forced to provide a supply for themselves instead. This requires serving Mammon but, to some, it is better than having our Creator live with us so intimately.

Your second quote from Matthew chapter 27 verse 53 speaks of the true power of Jesus’s resurrection. It was such a mighty event, that a man could and did conquer His own death, that the power of the event could not help but overflow out of His own tomb and into the tombs of others who had also lived a life seeking to do the will of our Creator. The appearance of these men and women among the populace who had buried them greatly influenced the apostles of Jesus and prepared the hearts of many others to receive the apostles’ teachings when the Holy Spirit had been sent as promised.