New Testament Fairy Tales

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

And even assuming that YOUR version of history is accurate, what you Christians have done with it is an even GREATER insult to intellect.

To think that you guys parade around with signs listing every kind of person who is f***ed in the afterlife...and here you talk about insults to intellect? Not to mention that your "God" has a laundry list of character defects that make Charlie Sheen look like Mother Theresa...

Please don't embarrass yourself. I'd really hate to see you discredited before your time.

This has nothing to do with "MY" version of history. I'm not talking about some "Christian" version of history. I'm talking about real, academic history. The kind you learn in school? Yeah.... There is zero evidence for Breeze's claims.

The fact you hate the Christian faith has nothing to do with my argument against the "Flavian Conspiracy". Zero. Zilch. Use your head.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


In that case, my apologies. It's difficult to see who is saying what here.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


The problem is, Alightbreeze didn't invent this line of thinking. It is well researched and comes from the Piso family documentation.

It has been my recent privilege to receive a manuscript by Roman Piso, entitled “The Synthesis of Christianity."

Perhaps Piso’s quote from Abelard Reuchlin sums up his thesis best:
“It was Flavius Josephus who was the creator of Jesus.”
Piso spent many years researching the fraud of Christianity. It seems that many scholars had previously come to the conclusion that Josephus had indeed created Christianity.

www.bibliotecapleyades.net...

reply to post by windword


I already pointed out that breeze didn't invent it.

Let me clarify my position here if there are some doubts: I contend that even if we assume a historical Jesus never existed, it can be demonstrably proven using historical records, the biblical texts and manuscripts we have found, and academia that this theory is completely false.

Let me reiterate: Even if we assume Jesus NEVER existed, it is still possible to prove (as myself and others far more qualified than me have) that the "Flavian Conspiracy" is hogwash.

reply to post by windword


How sure are you of this information? There's a difference between inventing an entire person and simply rewriting the story of a real man's life...

reply to post by DeadSeraph


I'm sorry if this is repetitive, but do you have link with proof to that? Did you check out this thread? www.abovetopsecret.com...

Lets just let people believe what they want to believe.

I really don't see how anyone can have a decent discussion by calling a religion as nothing but fairy tales. Some people don't like religion and don't want it rammed down their throat, but look at the other side of the argument where their religion teaches them to preach to unbelievers to "save" them.

Now I have to say there are some things in religion I do not like, mainly those things which deny people certain things, or call for deaths of other people for not believing. But thats just me, anyone can disagree with me and I'm cool with that.

For all we know, what you believe up until the point we "die" could in fact become the new reality if indeed our experiences of life do not end at death.

reply to post by windword


I have great respect for the work of Autowrench. Thanks for the link; more people need their eyes opened.

See, I don't think that "lead a worse to water" thing was meant for horses. I think the guy who coined it was thinking of humans, but didn't want his face stomped in.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by windword

 

How sure are you of this information? There's a difference between inventing an entire person and simply rewriting the story of a real man's life...

I'm 98% certain. Take a look at the links I've provided or the questions I've asked Breeze (which STILL remain conveniently unanswered). I'll be going even further though. I intend to try to make contact with actual historians if I can, and I have put out some requests on other forums for some help in digging up reputable historical sources that verify my claim.

But to sum up a major flaw:

-Josephus didn't meet vespasian until some time around 67AD. We know that paul began his writings in 48 or 49AD. That means that Josephus would have been 11 or 12 years old when some of the earliest writings of the NT began. Are we to imagine that Josephus wrote these books at this age? It's preposterous.

The general story of the conspiracy theory is that this grand plot was concocted to pacify the Jews and put down any rebellions they might try to start. Some flaws in this theory:

-Why would the romans need to do this when they had already crushed the Jewish uprisings, and leveled the temple?

-Why are other historians who mentioned Jesus (or even the "Christians" of that time), conveniently omitted from this theory?

-Why would the Jews accept this religion in the first place? It makes no sense. They would have found it heretical and an abomination to YHVH (which they did, and still do).

-If the goal was to convert the most zealous jewish militants at the time, then the logic the New Testament would pacify them is completely backwards. If anything, it would have inflamed them even more.

-The theory centers around the assumption that the NT speaks favorably of the Romans. It does no such thing and is full of criticisms against Rome and the corruption there in.

Those are just a few problems with the theory. I do intend to keep digging on this issue, and present the most reliable historical facts I can come up with.

Regards,

DS

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I've gotten away from the church thank god. What you gotta realize is that most of the die-hard religous have been indoctrinated and raised that way their whole life. They aren't going to challenge their worldviews without a major something happening in their lives to make them change it. That being said I also believe that the teachings of Jesus and his followers were hijacked by the church to further their own agendas. The first quote from the NT there I think Jesus is saying don't worry about the necessities. You will be taken care of. The second I'm not sure. There is wisdom in the bible, but there also alot of mistranslated/misinterpreted words as well. Its all in how you personally interpret it.

Another mental giant here. If there are a lot of mistranslations ect then what in the world makes you think a personal interpretation would help? And by the way......saying Jesus was hyjacked isnt going to save you.

reply to post by jiggerj


Sounds better than getting into the car every morning and commuting for an hour through a city!

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

I'm sorry if this is repetitive, but do you have link with proof to that? Did you check out this thread? www.abovetopsecret.com...

That thread is so full of inaccuracies it's not even funny. So now Flavius Josephus was a Roman General and he sacked Jerusalem?

So which is it? Was Josephus a Jewish Historian who the Flavian Dynasty used to write the NT, Or a Roman General? He couldn't have been the latter as he would require an intimate understanding of the OT to even write one book of the NT.

It's irrelevant anyways, because certain books of the NT were written BEFORE the rise of Josephus.

reply to post by DeadSeraph

I understand your frustrations, there was a time when I was in elementary school at St. Catholics that I was as embarrassingly attached to the mythical Jesus and the Flavian Gospels/NT as you are now.

But this thread is about

New Testament Fairy Tales

so let me suggest that you initiate a thread of your own, challenge me to a debate and I might attend.

Originally posted by ALightBreeze
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

I understand your frustrations, there was a time when I was in elementary school at St. Catholics that I was as embarrassingly attached to the mythical Jesus and the Flavian Gospels/NT as you are now.

But this thread is about

New Testament Fairy Tales

so let me suggest that you initiate a thread of your own, challenge me to a debate and I might attend.

That is correct, and your NT fairy tale is just that. A fairy tale. I am within the range of the topic to debate you here, and intend to do so.

Edit to add: I'm not even arguing for a mystical interpretation of Christ

You're so arrogant that you're completely missing the point. I'm arguing in favor of actual history. Even if we assume Jesus did not exist, your theory about who authored the NT is demonstrably false.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by DeadSeraph

 

www.abovetopsecret.com...

"The main reasons for the New Testament being written was...:

1. As a means by which to preserve and continue the continued practice of servitude to a Royal Family.

2. To create and make Law of the Land an official religion to quell all of the dissent of the time in Roman controlled lands, and in Rome herself."

Yeppers. Flavian fairy tales to pacify the Judea-Roman masses.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


This Piso/Flavian info is not something that I am exactly fluent in. That's why I wanted to link the thread by Autowrench, where it is highly debated.

There are others who have studied this more than me. I just wanted to support "Breezy" and let people know this isn't something all that unique.

Originally posted by windword
reply to post by AfterInfinity

 

This Piso/Flavian info is not something that I am exactly fluent in. That's why I wanted to link the thread by Autowrench, where it is highly debated.

There are others who have studied this more than me. I just wanted to support "Breezy" and let people know this isn't something all that unique.

edit on 7-9-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)

Thanks for that.

I would point out that there are considerable differences between the Piso and Breezy-Atwill-Flavian realities but that analysis isn't for this thread imo.

Back to topic...

New Testament Fairy Tales

Here is my colleague Joseph Atwill with a short presentation (6 mins) where he highlights a few faery tales of the NT from his perspective. and kudos, Joe!

reply to post by DeadSeraph


I want to comment on the part where you said, paraphrased, it was critical of rome, why would they do that to themselves?

I Think about it in terms of warfare. Im sure there was a lot of in-fighting in rome for power right? Thats just how any aggressive society is. Rome didnt just burn overnight. Im sure many people felt it was coming. Thus, those people would consider how they couod maintain their power if rome fell apart. As history shows us, religion is a very powerful idea.

If your society is collapsing, the smartest thing to do would be to control that collapse. Become your opponent, and be ready to seize power under a new "name".

All of that power went into the roman catholic church. Rome never really collapsed. It just changed its mask.
And as history also shows, the catholic church became a very dominant force in the world. I see the whole story as deliberate misdirection.

Originally posted by ALightBreeze
Back to topic...

New Testament Fairy Tales

Here is my colleague Joseph Atwill with a short presentation (6 mins) where he highlights a few faery tales of the NT from his perspective.

and kudos, Joe!

edit on 7-9-2012 by ALightBreeze because: (no reason given)

I noticed you called Joseph Atwill your "colleague". I also noticed that Mr.Atwill has no Academic credentials whatsoever (he is a businessman, and holds no degrees in history, archaeology, or anything related to the subject). Are you a historian?