New Testament Fairy Tales

For those interested, I have managed to track down the source of ALightBreeze's "ten years of research".

Turns out it's just Joseph Atwell and his documentary: "Caesar's Messiah"



Interested parties can read a rebuttal which points out many of the logical fallacies of these ridiculous claims here:

www.tektonics.org...

Snippet:

But the virtues over the Piso theory stop there. This time, rather than the non-existent Piso family, it is the Emperor Titus who is said to be the inventor of Christianity.

His goal was to create a "peaceful Messiah" figure for those rebellious Jews to follow, as a way of pacifying them; the joke being, that they would actually be worshipping Titus himself, unawares (more on this below).

In on the conspiracy as well was Josephus, a client of the Flavian family of which Titus was a member, and who left clues in his works for later and more clever discerners.

After 73 AD, when Rome had finished defeating the Jews, "someone" from within a circle of the Flavians (Titus, Vespasian, etc.), the Herods, and the Alexanders decided they could "tame messianic Judaism" by transforming it into a religion that would "cooperate with the Roman Empire." [6] The system and its documents were written after the war was over; that includes the material attributed to Paul [211f].

So now we have a description; let's talk about errors: A chief impetus for this idea, Atwill says [1], was that he could not conceive of how Judaism could produce two movements so diametrically opposed as the warlike Sicarii and the "peace"-advocting Jesus.

Atwill's conception, unfortunately, lacks a certain perspective; one may as well ask how early 20th century African-American society could have produced both a Malcolm X and a Martin Luther King. The clue missed is that Jesus' message was not one of peace, but of a sword, as he himself said -- the Gospel message undermined the values then held current, via subtle influence rather than direct force as the Sicarii preferred.

If Atwill cannot see that Jesus' message was not indeed, at its core, hostile to Roman authority and society in terms of the components it offered, then he needs to do some more research. Furthermore, it is clear that Atwill fails on the point of ancient social psychology. He supposes that Jesus was invented to attract militaristic, messianic Jews; yet the figure of Jesus is precisely what a dedicated Sicarii would least follow.

Jesus would be regarded as being as far out of the ingroup as could be conceived; he would even be taken by the Sicarii as a disgrace to YHWH.

Indeed, Atwill openly contradicts himself, for he claims he cannot see how Judaism could produce such diametric opposites, yet he argues that Christianity was built to make these opposites attract. He supposes, in other words, that Judaism would not produce such a group; but he hypothesizes that Jews then converted to such a group. Yet that is unreasonable even in truth, for such rebels would not approve of Jesus even as we know him; the positive view of tax collectors, Roman officials, etc. that Atwill sees would have been exceptionally repugnant to the very people being targeted.

The idea that Christianity was intended to prevent the spread of messianic Judaism to the provinces [19] ignores the fact that Jews of the Diaspora were Hellenized enough that they did not support such a movement in the first place (the misplaced hopes of the rebels, recorded by Josephus [19], notwithstanding). Atwill cannot have his cake and eat it too. In addition, the idea he sees in Paul and Josephus that "the Romans were God's servants" finds its roots in OT indications that punishers like the Assyrians and Babylonians were doing God's will -- and finds no particular favor for the Romans.

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
It seems to me that Hell has become sort of the Elephant in the room with Religion nowadays. Just don't talk about it, focus on how God loves you and sent his son for you and ignore the things we don't like. After all, they gotta keep people coming to church and putting money in that collection plate and preaching about unpleasant things in the Bible might make them not want to come back.

In the Church I was raised in the topic was seldom discussed, and its the same with many other churches. The reason being that it is too 'fire and brimstone', which tends to upset people and causes them to NOT attend rather then scaring them into attending as you claim.

As I mentioned above, the word “hell” does not exist in the bible, but rather a myriad of other terms that have been translated into 'hell' in modern translations. Hades, Tartarus, “the grave”, etc do exist in the bible, and you need to really read with a Strong's Concordance so you can look at the actual words used in each instance.

Many of the modern beliefs about Satan, Lucifer, Hell, etc... do not come from the bible, but rather are a product of European history, especially the Renaissance. The modern picture of Satan, as a horned, hoofed, pitchfork carrying, red devil is a prime example. None of these things are biblical in origin, but sprung from the RCC using them to gain works through fear.

Many believe that hell is simply the idea of eternal separation from God, others believe that it's a fire that burns into nonexistence instantly (no eternal suffering you just simply cease to exist), many non-orthodox Jews don't believe in it at all... Several of the early church fathers believed in the Apocalypse of Peter, which states that eventually everyone is rescued from hell. Others yet believe that since Christ has defeated sin/death/hell already, that everyone is granted salvation, each in their own way through the wisdom of God (universalism).

Hell is one of those topics that is actually very unclear in the Bible, the same with Satan and Lucifer.

reply to post by DeadSeraph


That's awesome, and quite hilarious...

I had a gut feeling that it was all a ruse...
Thanks, Harry Potter, for ridding us of the troll....!

reply to post by defcon5

Mormonism and Christianity are two different religions. So I would say no, they are not the same. However Catholicism and Lutheranism are two different denominations of the same religion, so fundamentally yes, Presbyterians, Methodists, Lutherans, Catholics are all fundamentally the same. Minor differences in doctrine do not make it a different religion, just a different way of practicing it.

I do not believe that Christ was God. I believe he was pretty close to the mindset of God, and I believe he was absolutely a prophet sent by God. The Holy Trinity has never resonated or made much sense to me. I suppose my beliefs about Christ fall more along the lines of Islam than Christianity.

Of course I've done wrong in my life. I am by no means a perfect person. But I don't believe that "sin" has done this to me. I believe God has created me exactly the way I am supposed to be, with warts and moles and flaws and screw-ups. I don't think God wants or expects us to never make mistakes, but I do believe he wants us to accept the consequences of our actions. As long as I try to keep doing the right thing and learn from my mistakes I feel that God is pleased with me.

Should we not be an example of goodness for others not for Religions sake, but just for decency and goodness sake? I want to be a good example for my family, my nephews and sisters, my friends who are angry at the world. Not because I want them to go to church, but because I want to see them happier and do better in life. Why can't that be enough? I think everyone needs to find their own spiritual beliefs themselves, but that takes alot of work and self-reflection and looking at the cold hard reality of your own human nature. Its much easier to go to a church and have others define your spirituality for you.

I appreciate the discussion with you and you taking the time to converse with me with these matters, I am by no means a Christian hater. I know some very fine folks that are Christians. I also know some very fine folks that have never set foot in a church their entire lives. Last Easter I went the Lutheran church that I grew up at, mainly to make my Mom happy, but also to let everyone up there know that I was OK because I was very sick last year. I was the first time I had set foot in a church in over 10 years. Of course I was met with alot of, "Glad to see you're still alive and the cancer is gone!" But I was also greeted with alot of, "I haven't seen you around here in a while." They might as well have said, "I'm better than you because I go to church every Sunday." The thing is, I am willing to bet that I have a better relationship with my creator than many of the people up there do. I don't feel comfortable discussing my spiritual beliefs with others because my life and experiences has taught me a much different spirituality than most can really comprehend.

Originally posted by defcon5

Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
It seems to me that Hell has become sort of the Elephant in the room with Religion nowadays. Just don't talk about it, focus on how God loves you and sent his son for you and ignore the things we don't like. After all, they gotta keep people coming to church and putting money in that collection plate and preaching about unpleasant things in the Bible might make them not want to come back.

In the Church I was raised in the topic was seldom discussed, and its the same with many other churches. The reason being that it is too 'fire and brimstone', which tends to upset people and causes them to NOT attend rather then scaring them into attending as you claim.

Actually, if you read what I posted, I just said the exact same thing you did. Dwell on the positive, ignore the negative.

And hell is mentioned several times in the Bible. And several times by Jesus. I quoted several of them for you in an earlier post. If you like I can post them again for you. I do know that the popular image of Satan comes from the RCC wanting to scare people into going to church. And the concept of hell came from Gehenna. A place outside Jerusalem where children were sacrificed by fire. Personally I believe that hell is an existence without the presence of God. But if Hell is mentioned in the Bible, and the RCC is responsible for many of the depictions of hell that we have today, do you think this is evidence of the RCC tampering with the translations?

Originally posted by jiggerj
In another thread it was suggested that I read the New Testament. Admittedly, it's been years since I've done this, but I used to read it often. Like the religious today, I allowed my eyes to glaze over the utterly ridiculous parts. I don't do that anymore. For instance, the following are considered the wise words of Jesus:

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?

If this is such great advice why don't we all just quit our jobs. Let's teach our kids that when they grow up they have no need to save money for the future, no need to spend money on food and clothing. Yep, real super advice.
----------------------------------------
And then there's this from the NT.

Matthew 27: The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Really? I mean, REALLY? And the mature religious adults with an IQ over 80 believe this happened? Come on now.
-------------------------------------
Religion has been an ongoing conspiracy against the masses for thousands of years. Isn't it time to really look at what you're buying into?

edit on 9/4/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

So let me get this straight...

By your own admission you after years dust off the bible, find a few verses and that makes you not only a bible scholar but also a archeologist/historian who has it all figured out, and now after your 1 minute of reading has the capacity, reasoning, experience, and intelligence to tell everyone else that they shouldn't read, or believe?

ohhhh ohhhhh ohhhhh right..... ahhhhh no I know..... okay look I know that must have been either some good bud or something. It must have been really good ahh? Like on a scale of 1-10? How good was it? Because it turned you into a bible scholar dude!!! wow

reply to post by r2d246


To his credit, he actually considered someone with an opposing view point, and took their advice. Who knows? Maybe he is still reading? At any rate, he's been cordial throughout this thread, and seems to be enjoying the discussion. I respect him for that much!

reply to post by DeadSeraph


Well, I guess thats why repeated requests for info were met with angry deflection. Nice work!

Originally posted by DeadSeraph


I really appreciate the character you've shown in this thread, Jigger. I respect you immensely for being able to discuss this subject with civility with so many people of faith who don't necessarily share your opinions. Cheers

edit on 5-9-2012 by DeadSeraph because: (no reason given)

Hey, I can brutal, but it all depends on the intelligence placed in each reply. You guys have truly used your minds here. No, dumping a list of quotes from the bible or shallow responses. If I were discussing religion with the girl from this clip, I'd either be all over her, or completely ignore her. I've posted it before, but it's still funny as hell, and very sad that someone can be this stupid.

reply to post by jiggerj


Jigger, this is a very serious answer to that girl's question, as posed in the video.

One) that was THE STUPIDEST question she could have asked. Two) the answer is simple: man wrote it.

Now, pardon me...I have a video to flame.

Edit: after checking her twitter, I'm not entirely certain that she's legitimate. I think she may be a troll.

Originally posted by totallackey
reply to post by jiggerj

 

"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?"
If this is such great advice why don't we all just quit our jobs. Let's teach our kids that when they grow up they have no need to save money for the future, no need to spend money on food and clothing. Yep, real super advice.

I am thinking there might perhaps be a little more to this than your simple offhanded interpretation...I am sure there other verses that would indicate we are not to just jump off a cliff...We can live our lives as full people doing good and important work, without worrying about the state of our clothes (i.e., needing top line designer clothes) and could actually go without a meal or two (i.e., learning the difference between the language, "I'M STARVING!" and "Maybe I can go without that Little Debbie Snack Cake...")

Matthew 27: The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Really? I mean, REALLY? And the mature religious adults with an IQ over 80 believe this happened? Come on now.

I believe these people saw something, just the way these people saw something... What it was, who knows...

Religion has been an ongoing conspiracy against the masses for thousands of years. Isn't it time to really look at what you're buying into?

What do you want people to buy into? Nothing? People are complex creatures. They have emotions, feelings, and are curious.

People need direction.

To look to a manuscript that was written in the Middle East, a place where we gained chess, the foundations of modern astronomy and the foundations of modern sailing, and maintain your attitude of disdain is rather ego maniacal...You seem to be a rather intelligent person. Surely you know the cultures of this area of the world did much to influence world history in a positive manner.

Oh yes, the Middle East was on its way to amassing an incredible amount of knowledge. This region probably would have won more Nobel prizes than anywhere else in the world. Then, a thousand years ago, this happened:

This was his (Imam al-Ghazali) advice in regards to the science of philosophy, particularly the Greek philosophy of Plato and Aristotle which many Muslims took pride in studying. He was warning them of the dangers that could result from this study. But he didn’t stop there. He even warned people about studying mathematics and other sciences.

I had to search for this. I had heard it before, but I couldn't remember the Imam's name. Through religion, he destroyed the brains of the Middle East.

More on this here: al-Ghazali on Studying Science

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

Genesis 1 says that God created matter. But it had no shape and was empty. And evil existed in it. But the Spirit of God, moved over the face of evil.

Which bible is this, GoOfy? I've never read anything of evil in the formation of the world.

Originally posted by MarkScheppy

lets have a discussion about politics,

Here you go: ATS

Enjoy.

reply to post by jiggerj


In the beginning, all that existed was "God" and the Word, and the Word was "God".

Almost word for word.

reply to post by jiggerj


That correlates to my suspicions, in regard to intellect.
It's a pet theory of mine, that we, as a species, are getting dumber whilst convincing ourselves that we are at the pinnacle of our intelligence.
Let me quantify...
We spend more and more time, thinking up ways to limit the amount of physical effort we must put forth, for any given task. By doing so, we continue to allow negative things to build up in our bodies. Then, as time goes on, these negatives, affect us to the point of mutations. And, therefore are passed on to our offspring, to continue the cycle.
2,000 years ago, humans worked. They walked. They made grand things with their hands and their backs and their sweat. The food was more pure. Their bodies functioned as the Creator intended. Their minds were not affected by chemicals, and manmade additives. And, their intelligence flourished.
They were able to understand and comprehend the way the books of the Bible were written. It was common for thoughts to be conveyed in such a manner. This greatness of minds continued up until a few centuries ago.
We have been slowly poisoning our own reason. Or allowing others to destroy us from within.

But, how should we go about, finding our way back to this purity? I think it may be too late.

reply to post by GoOfYFoOt


That's easy. Somehow, someway, destroy all electricity. That should kill the electronics nationwide. It would be one way to spark the return to the lifestyle you described...

...maybe spark is the wrong word.

reply to post by CynicalDrivel

I'd also be driven quite daft by not understanding the culture at that point either.

Exactly! The culture at that point, and before it, that also gave us Osirus. Pretty much the Jesus story, only fabricated first.

Osirus

People back then loved stories about gods as much as we love stories of aliens.

reply to post by jiggerj


I was paraphrasing... It speaks of darkness. And refers to God being light. The opposite of darkness. I correlate many things throughout the Word, to try and get a more firm understanding of the intent.

is it what it really means? Don't ask me. Just another theory from a tired mind, searching for the Truth!

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by GoOfYFoOt

 

That's easy. Somehow, someway, destroy all electricity. That should kill the electronics nationwide. It would be one way to spark the return to the lifestyle you described...

...maybe spark is the wrong word.

Exactly. It's been proven, that if we don't "excercise" our minds, that parts of it go dormant. And, once that occurs, the electrical activity required for brain function in those areas, ceases.
Add to that, the effect of the poisons that we ingest regularly, and we are imbeciles waiting to happen...

Originally posted by jiggerj
reply to post by CynicalDrivel

 

I'd also be driven quite daft by not understanding the culture at that point either.

Exactly! The culture at that point, and before it, that also gave us Osirus. Pretty much the Jesus story, only fabricated first.

Osirus

People back then loved stories about gods as much as we love stories of aliens.

Oh please

The Osiris as Jesus myth has been thoroughly debunked, Jigger. If you wish to talk about "New Testament Fairy Tales", at least read the freakin thing and post passages you consider "fairy tales" as you come across them. Otherwise, you might as well just rename the topic "The Zeitgeist Fairy tale". I've seen actual non-christian Egyptologists debunk this claim.

You will however, find it prevalent in occult studies. But it is not mentioned so much because Occultists think Jesus to be a myth based on Osiris, so much as Occultists are prone to draw correlations to EVERYTHING (the idea being that all things have certain values, and when those values match, there is a spiritual or metaphysical relationship between them).

Real archaeology and academia contends there is no link between Osiris and Jesus of Nazareth.