Ten Courts of Hell

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

The New Testament also declares the Abrahamic Covenant to be immutable and unchangeable.

That would be interesting if there was such a statement in the New Testament.
The covenant was not how you are being taught in your cult.
What this deity type person said was that he would visit each generation to confirm the covenant, something that only lasted two generations, showing to me that it was not especially "everlasting".
All your arguments do not negate the fact that there is no kingdom of Israel and there hasn't been since the time of Solomon.
The promise of the prophets, that Jesus was referring to when he said salvation is of the Jews, was about himself being the King, but in that same story, Jesus said the time now was that people would no longer worship in the temple but spiritually. There is a spiritual kingdom with Jesus as the king that has been in place here on earth since the time of John the Baptist.

All your arguments do not negate the fact that there is no kingdom of Israel and there hasn't been since the time of Solomon.

reply to post by jmdewey60


The words "nation" and "kingdom" mean different things in the scriptures. I never said "kingdom of Israel".
I said "nation of Israel";

(It is important to note that "Jew" in this context represents all of GOD's chosen nation Israel, and "Greek" represents all other nations of the earth (gentiles)).

In the context used in my quote, "nation" is referred to as ethnicity/race of origin. Therefore a collective way of saying "all jewish peoples." The term "nation of Israel" was also inclusive, through GODs grace, of foreign peoples who adopted the jewish form and worshipped the GOD of Israel as if they were jews themselves. The book of Ruth is a prime example.
Yes, as you say, Christians today are "grafted" into the Jewish line and are GODs chosen people. But it is also important to remember that there are many Jewish people today who still don't accept Jesus Christ as Messiah.

Just as a side note - wasn't Israel established as legitimate state once again on May 14th, 1948? Doesn't that officially make it once again, a "nation"/"kingdom"?

On May 14, 1948, in Tel Aviv, one of the greatest miracles of history occurred against all odds. Jewish Agency Chairman David Ben-Gurion, using Ezekiel as his authority, proclaimed the establishment of the modern State of Israel. After 2000 years, a nation “that was not” became one again. In an afternoon ceremony Ben-Gurion pronounced the words, “We hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called Israel.”
God moved “heaven and earth” to remain faithful to the covenants He established with Abraham and his descendents. This is the surety on which we, who are those fortunate enough to be “grafted in,” stand. Those promises are our promises also. In the most unfathomable and destitute situations He never, ever fails to be faithful to His commitments.

Yeah...glad to see you have an original thought...anyway...
...what you have quoted of mine, actually relates to the name Jesus...this is what was being discussed...

If you read and interpret holy books the way you have misinterpreted, and misrepresented the context of what was actually being discussed...my point is made in spades...

reply to post by akushla99


Sorry. Let me rephrase my answer.


ROMANS 1:18 For the wrath of Jesus is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about Jesus is plain to them, because Jesus has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew Jesus, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal Jesus for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore Jesus gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about Jesus for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason Jesus gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge Jesus, He gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of Jesus, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Though they know Jesus's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
2 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of Jesus rightly falls on those who practice such things.
3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of Jesus?
4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that Jesus's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when Jesus's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who obey patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, tthe Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For Jesus shows no partiality.

Originally posted by 1king2rulethemall

Yeah...glad to see you have an original thought...anyway...
...what you have quoted of mine, actually relates to the name Jesus...this is what was being discussed...

If you read and interpret holy books the way you have misinterpreted, and misrepresented the context of what was actually being discussed...my point is made in spades...

reply to post by akushla99

 

Sorry. Let me rephrase my answer.


ROMANS 1:18 For the wrath of Jesus is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
19 For what can be known about Jesus is plain to them, because Jesus has shown it to them.
20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
21 For although they knew Jesus, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal Jesus for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore Jesus gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about Jesus for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason Jesus gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge Jesus, He gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of Jesus, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Though they know Jesus's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
2 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things.
2 We know that the judgment of Jesus rightly falls on those who practice such things.
3 Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of Jesus?
4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that Jesus's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
5 But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when Jesus's righteous judgment will be revealed.
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who obey patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, tthe Jew first and also the Greek.
11 For Jesus shows no partiality.

So...you wrote this?

You did not write this, so it cannot be...'your answer'...

...and claiming to 'rephrase your answer' could be construed as claiming to be whoever is deemed to have written it...get where I'm going here?

Let me repeat myself...

If you read and interpret holy books the way you have misinterpreted, and misrepresented the context of what was actually being discussed...my point is made in spades...

You seem to be preacing to me...making 'on the run' judgements...are you the judge?

"2 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. "

...good, I thought not...

A99

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Ben81

 

I wouldnt serve a god that does this to his children.

Sad to see that you get off on it

I feel sorry for ones that feel like that. I would not "serve, work for, or bow down to ANY God that uses FEAR to make people serve. I think the OP needs to research the origins of the word he is using.
en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

To paraphrase what I posted elsewhere:

Most of a person's view of the afterlife depends on what mental/philosophical/theological filter they read their Bible through: the Eternal Torment filter, the Final Annihilation filter, or the Universal Reconciliation filter. All three work, and have adherents, but the last seems more accurate and consistent to me.

Consider the Book of Jeremiah, chapter 32, verse 35: "...their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination..."

Did you catch that? Such a thing - burning people in a fire - had never entered the mind of God, but most churches preach and believe that He plans just that for most of humanity. All you have to do to see the truth is change the filter!

I will admit that the Bible does not tell us what happens afterward to the people who are thrown into the Lake of Fire, but the whole thrust of that Book is that they will be saved, and in many places God describes His refining (not punishing) fire.

Heaven, yes - hell, no!

reply to post by Lazarus Short

Most of a person's view of the afterlife depends on what mental/philosophical/theological filter they read their Bible through: the Eternal Torment filter, the Final Annihilation filter, or the Universal Reconciliation filter. All three work, and have adherents, but the last seems more accurate and consistent to me.

I was shown my Afterlife a few years ago, and there was no torment, no fire, it was nice. So nice, by the way, I wanted to stay then, and I would love to go there right now. There is no such thing as "Hell," except to those who have the lie pounded into their brainwashed heads for the fear effect. I have been seeing the dead for many years, some I know beyond any doubt whatsoever was not religious in any way, and no one I ever saw was in such a place.

So, in my considered opinion, if you wish to believe in Hell, then have fun there. I do not.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

(It is important to note that "Jew" in this context represents all of GOD's chosen nation Israel, and "Greek" represents all other nations of the earth (gentiles))

OK, I understand that someone wrote this. I saw this yesterday in a lexicon, and it apparently is some Christian writer's opinion but I do not take this to be an opinion universally shared among Christian scholars.
You can repeat it all you want but it does not make it more true.

The words "nation" and "kingdom" mean different things in the scriptures. I never said "kingdom of Israel".
I said "nation of Israel";

The scriptures do not talk of a nation of Israel outside of a kingdom. If you think it does, then you should quote a verse saying so. This notion of a "nation" of Israel is a modern artificial construct and there are sociological books you can read about how it was invented.

In the context used in my quote, "nation" is referred to as ethnicity/race of origin.

That may be your personal opinion. What the text says is Jew. You are turning that into meaning something different, to show that somehow this concept of a nation still exists, carried about by individuals spread across the earth. Well that is just wishful thinking and I would offer was designed as a philosophy to tear down the validity of the Church of Jesus as the successor of the promise of God to do good things for those who obey Him.

So...you wrote this?

You did not write this, so it cannot be...'your answer'...

...and claiming to 'rephrase your answer' could be construed as claiming to be whoever is deemed to have written it...get where I'm going here?

Let me repeat myself...

If you read and interpret holy books the way you have misinterpreted, and misrepresented the context of what was actually being discussed...my point is made in spades...

You seem to be preacing to me...making 'on the run' judgements...are you the judge?

"2 Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. "

...good, I thought not...

A99

reply to post by akushla99


I am very confused with what you have written and why you have written it?

You made this statement to another poster ;

...and if they are judged by the information available to them...they cannot, in all Gods honesty and Goodness be judged for not having the information available...make sense? (in relation the the OP?)

So I replied with an answer directly from the Bible, which directly addresses this line of thinking.

You then posted back to me ;

Yeah...glad to see you have an original thought...anyway...
...what you have quoted of mine, actually relates to the name Jesus...this is what was being discussed...

If you read and interpret holy books the way you have misinterpreted, and misrepresented the context of what was actually being discussed...my point is made in spades...

I don't need to have an "original thought" because I believe that the Christian Bible is the truth. That is how I think. Those are my thoughts, so therefore that is my answer.

Because you were discussing "the name of Jesus" I thought it more than appropriate to give an answer from the most authorative text on the subject of Jesus/GOD - that being the Christian Bible.
I specifically selected the passages that spoke directly to your statement of ;

...and if they are judged by the information available to them...they cannot, in all Gods honesty and Goodness be judged for not having the information available...make sense? (in relation the the OP?)

The passages that I posted are in relation to GOD as the creator and also to Jesus being that GOD and the name of Jesus as the only name by which mankind is saved. That is why I "re-phrased" the passages using the name of Jesus. The Christian Bible adamantly declares that the only way to know GOD is by knowing Jesus - because He is GOD. Jesus and GOD are one. Jesus was GOD among us. If you know GOD, then you know Jesus. If you know Jesus then you know GOD. So the passages are basically declaring that there will be no excuses at all for anyone not to know JESUS !!!!

I thought that this covered your post most assuredly.

In no way was I judging you by any of my posts. I have re-read my posts and I can't find anywhere at all that even hints at that suggestion?
I don't understand why you seem to be trying to insult me either?

Well that is just wishful thinking and I would offer was designed as a philosophy to tear down the validity of the Church of Jesus as the successor of the promise of God to do good things for those who obey Him.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jeremiah 31:1 "At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."
Jeremiah 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Ezekiel 36:28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

These are all prophesies for future Israel - showing that Israel still has specific place in GODs promises.


Israel and the Church - What’s the Relationship?

May I suggest that you check out this link:

Israel and the Church

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

These are all prophesies for future Israel - showing that Israel still has specific place in GODs promises.

According to who or what, are they about a future event?
The return apparently happened in the time of the Persian Empire and then into the Greek era, where people who were so inclined had the opportunity of freedom of movement to return to Palestine, which would have been the situation in Jesus' time. A lot of people did not make that move but still would travel to Jerusalem for certain religious festivals where they could receive blessings.
The flaw in your argument is that Hebrews in the New Testament quotes that same passage in Jeremiah but uses it to explain the New Covenant that Jesus brought about.
So this gives further support to my claim that your cult philosophy detracts from Jesus, to tear away credit given to him, to be given to others, in the after-Christianity scenario of your heretical imaginings.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

I don't need to have an "original thought" because I believe that the Christian Bible is the truth. That is how I think. Those are my thoughts, so therefore that is my answer.

I know this isn't really my argument here, but come one now! Do you even hear yourself talking? The KJB the truth? Been living beneath a rock, have we?
It is just taken for granted (by Christians) that it is true, but if you analyze the weight of the evidence for this doctrine, you find that it is in actuality both weak and nearly non-existent. First of all, the second sentence of this argument, that the “Bible is the Truth, the word of God” implies that the text in the Bible books are God’s words verbatim. However, we all know, including you Christians, that humans wrote those books, not Gods. Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that all 66 books are God’s word, or that any of it is infallible. The doctrine of Biblical inspiration and infallibility was made up by Christian fundamentalists to create an false foundation for their faith system. It is well understood among scholars, and others who read a lot, when reading through Biblical stories, and comparing them to other earlier writings, that a great portion of the Bible has been lifted from earlier writings of other, older cultures.

The passages that I posted are in relation to GOD as the creator and also to Jesus being that GOD and the name of Jesus as the only name by which mankind is saved. That is why I "re-phrased" the passages using the name of Jesus. The Christian Bible adamantly declares that the only way to know GOD is by knowing Jesus - because He is GOD. Jesus and GOD are one. Jesus was GOD among us. If you know GOD, then you know Jesus. If you know Jesus then you know GOD. So the passages are basically declaring that there will be no excuses at all for anyone not to know JESUS !!!!

First of all, the name "Jesus" could not have existed in Ancient Hebrew. The letter "J" is but 500 some years old, and there are no vowels in the Hebrew Language. That leaves us with "ss."

Ever heard of this man?
He was born of a virgin and “immaculate conception by a ray of divine reason.” He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wise men with his wisdom. He was tempted in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. He baptized with water, fire and “holy wind.” He cast out demons and restored the sight to a blind man. He taught about heaven and hell, and revealed mysteries, including resurrection, judgment, salvation and the apocalypse. He had a sacred cup or grail. He was slain. His religion had a eucharist. He was the “Word made flesh. followers expected a “second coming” in the virgin-born Saoshynt or Savior, who is to come in 2341 AD and begin his ministry at age 30, ushering in a golden age. Do you know?
Zoroaster

Zoroaster is one of many "saviors," sages, and wise men who lived in Ancient times, and it was from these the story written by the Romans took the attributes of Jesus. In face, there were at least Sixteen Crucified Saviors in history, which one was yours?
The King James was heavily edited too....read all about it here:
The Origins of the King James Bible
You state, like some others, that "the name of Jesus as the only name by which mankind is saved." Saved from what, exactly? Sheol?

Gehenna?
Gehenna was a garbage dump at a location just outside of Old Jerusalem. Used by Jews of the time to get rid of, or destroy things. Gehenna was a place to cast ones garbage, dead and diseased bodies, the bodies of criminals, and other refuse. In order to ensure complete and utter destruction, the Jews kept the fires of Gehenna always burning. Often fueling the fires with sulfur. The actual location is lost in Time. Is this what we are to be saved from? I think you better see about saving yourself, because no one is going to do it for you. I'm just saying.

According to who or what, are they about a future event?

reply to post by jmdewey60



GILLS EXPOSITION OF THE ENTIRE BIBLE

1At the same time, saith the LORD, will I be the God of all the families of Israel, and they shall be my people.

At the same time, saith the Lord,.... The time of the Messiah, the Gospel dispensation, the latter days; when the Jews shall consider the prophecies of the Old Testament, and observe how they have been fulfilled in Jesus; and shall reflect upon their disbelief and rejection of him; and shall turn unto him, and serve the Lord their God, and David their king; see Jeremiah 30:9;

will I be the God of all the families of Israel; not of some few persons only, or of one of a city, and two of a family, but of every family; and this will be when "all Israel" shall be converted and saved, and a nation shall be born at once; then will God show himself to them as their covenant God, manifest his love to them, and bestow the blessings of his grace upon them:

and they shall be my people; behave as such to him; own him to be their God, and serve and worship him.

CLARKS COMMENTARY ON THE BIBLE

This chapter continues the subject of the preceding in a beautiful vision represented at a distant period. God is introduced expressing his continual regard for Israel, and promising to restore them to their land and liberty, Jeremiah 31:1-5. Immediately heralds appear, proclaiming on Mount Ephraim the arrival of the great year of jubilee, and summoning the people to gather unto Zion, Jeremiah 31:6. Upon which God resumes the speech; and makes such gracious promises both of leading them tenderly by the way, and making them happy in their own land, that all the nations of the world are called upon to consider with deep attention this great salvation, Jeremiah 31:7-14.The scene is then diversified by a very happy invention. Rachel, the another of Joseph and Benjamin, is represented as risen from her tomb, in a city of Benjamin near Jerusalem, looking about for her children, and bitterly lamenting their fate, as none of them are to be seen in the land of their fathers, Jeremiah 31:15. But she is consoled with the assurance that they are not lost, and that they shall in due time be restored, Jeremiah 31:16, Jeremiah 31:17. To this another tender and beautiful scene immediately succeeds. Ephraim, (often put for the Ten tribes), comes in view. He laments his past errors, and expresses the most earnest desires of reconciliation; upon which God, as a tender parent, immediately forgives him, Jeremiah 31:18-20. The virgin of Israel is then directed to prepare for returning home, Jeremiah 31:21, Jeremiah 31:22; and the vision closes with a promise of abundant peace and security to Israel and Judah in the latter days, Jeremiah 31:23-26. The blessed condition of Israel under the Messiah's reign is then beautifully contrasted with their afflicted state during the general dispersion, Jeremiah 31:27, Jeremiah 31:28. In the remaining part of the chapter the promises to the posterity of Jacob of the impartial administration of justice, increasing peace and prosperity, the universal diffusion of righteousness, and stability in their own land after a general restoration in Gospel tines, are repeated, enlarged on, and illustrated by a variety of beautiful figures, Jeremiah 31:29-40.

Keil and Delitzsch Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament

The expression "At that time" refers to Jeremiah 30:24, "in the end of the days," which means the Messianic future. The announcement of deliverance itself is continued by resumption of the promise made in Jeremiah 30:22; the transposition of the two portions of the promise is to be remarked. Here, "I will be a God to them" stands first, because the restoration and perfection of Israel have their only foundation in the love of God and in the faithfulness with which He keeps His covenant, and it is only through this gracious act that Israel again becomes the people of God. "All the families of Israel" are the families of the whole twelve tribes - of the two kingdoms of Israel and Judah, separated since the death of Solomon. After this announcement of deliverance for the whole of Israel, the address turns first to Israel of the ten tribes, and continues to treat longest of them, "because, judging from appearances, they seem irrecoverably lost - for ever rejected by the Lord" (Hengstenberg).

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

all . Israel-not the exiles of the south kingdom of Judah only, but also the north kingdom of the ten tribes; and not merely Israel in general, but "all the families of Israel." Never yet fulfilled (Ro 11:26).

NONE OF THESE CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN MET OF ISRAEL TO THIS DAY. THEY ARE FUTURE PROPHECIES. AS MANY WELL RESPECTED BIBLE SCHOLARS CONFER.

The return apparently happened in the time of the Persian Empire and then into the Greek era,

reply to post by jmdewey60


I am pretty sure that the return happened in 1948.

On May 14, 1948, in Tel Aviv, one of the greatest miracles of history occurred against all odds. Jewish Agency Chairman David Ben-Gurion, using Ezekiel as his authority, proclaimed the establishment of the modern State of Israel. After 2000 years, a nation “that was not” became one again. In an afternoon ceremony Ben-Gurion pronounced the words, “We hereby proclaim the establishment of the Jewish State in Palestine, to be called Israel.” This prompted both applause and tears.We see it as something much more. God moved “heaven and earth” to remain faithful to the covenants He established with Abraham and his descendents. This is the surety on which we, who are those fortunate enough to be “grafted in,” stand. Those promises are our promises also. In the most unfathomable and destitute situations He never, ever fails to be faithful to His commitments. This is the cornerstone upon which to build a house that cannot be shaken.

The Land Covenant
Concerning the Land grant, we read the following in the Book of Genesis:
On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates—the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girga#es, and the Jebusites.”
Genesis 15:18-21
As we read, we see that God made a covenant. In Hebrew the word for covenant is briyth, which consists of the following concepts: an alliance, or a sacred pledge or agreement. In the previous verses of Genesis 15 we read about the binding of this covenant.
The actual word in the Hebrew literally means “to cut,” and so we see Abraham cutting the sacrifices into halves. In order to ratify the covenant, the two parties would walk between the sacrifices, but here we see that the two entities that walk between the sacrifices do not include Abraham. He is in a God-induced deep sleep. We read that it is a smoking furnace and a burning lamp that walk between the sacrifice. It’s interesting that in Hebrews 12:29 we get a glimpse of the identity of these metaphors:
For our God is a consuming fire.
Hebrews 12:29


From this we conclude that the covenant is an unconditional promise of God, for He swore by Himself; thus, there are no conditions placed on Abraham. There are no “if and then” clauses, only a God-proclaimed “I Will.” One thing that is consistent throughout the Scriptures is that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob keeps covenant!
The Torah proclaims in the book of Numbers
that:
God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Behold, I have received a command to bless;
He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it.
Numbers 23:19,20
This is a rather short and pointed synopsis of the past where one gains perspective when reading about the grant ing of the land of Israel (Zion) to the Jews.

Israel’s Future
As we look to the future we know that a nation has been born in a day and that the Lord is bringing His Covenant people back to the Land! Since May of 1948 we have been witnessing the dry bones becoming flesh. In regards to Zion we are currently at an impasse and the world leaders are seeking to move along the so-called Peace Process by carving up the Promised Land.
Before we go any further, let’s look at what the Prophet Joel has to say about dividing and partitioning His Land.
I will also gather all nations, And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; And I will enter into judgment with them there On account of My people, My heritage Israel, Whom they have scattered among the nations; They have also divided up My land. Joel 3:2


This passage, as well as the picture Zechariah paints concerning Jerusalem being a type of global hernia in the last days, should cause us great concern.
The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: “Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of drunkenness to all the surrounding peoples, when they lay siege against Judah and Jerusalem. And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all
nations of the earth are gathered against it. In that day,” says the Lord, “

Ezekiel 36:28 You will live in the land I gave your forefathers; you will be my people, and I will be your God.

The flaw in your argument is that Hebrews in the New Testament quotes that same passage in Jeremiah but uses it to explain the New Covenant that Jesus brought about.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Yes that is correct. That is my point. The promises given to the Nation of Israel will not be fulfilled until they acknowledge Jesus Christ as their Messiah. WHICH HAS NOT YET COME TO PASS!!!!

Jeremiah 31:33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

This promise/prophecy talks about the Jews turning away from the "law" and enjoying their "sabbath rest" in Jesus Christ. The "law" is in their "minds" and "hearts" - faith in Jesus Christ, not in their works!!!!!!

So this gives further support to my claim that your cult philosophy detracts from Jesus, to tear away credit given to him, to be given to others, in the after-Christianity scenario of your heretical imaginings.

1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do]. 5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and [of] a good conscience, and [of] faith unfeigned: 6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling; 7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

1Ti 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.


1Ti 6:11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.

1Ti 6:20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane [and] vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called: 21Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace [be] with thee.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall


Yep, Hosea 5:15.

It is just taken for granted (by Christians) that it is true, but if you analyze the weight of the evidence for this doctrine, you find that it is in actuality both weak and nearly non-existent.

reply to post by autowrench

Foremost, we feel that the KJV is an EXCELLENT translation, but not the ONLY excellent translation.
In over 90 percent of the New Testament, readings are identical word-for-word, regardless of the family. Of the remaining ten percent, MOST of the differences between the texts are fairly irrelevant, such as calling the Lord "Christ Jesus" instead of "Jesus Christ," or putting the word "the" before a noun. Less than two percent would significantly alter the meaning of a passage, and NONE of them would contradict or alter any of the basic points of Christian doctrine. What we have, then, is a dispute concerning less than one-half of one percent of the Bible. The other 99.5% we all agree on!
Because there are over 14,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament we can absolutely be confident of its accuracy. With this large number of manuscripts, comparing manuscripts easily reveals any place where a scribe has made an error or where there is a variation. There are approximately 150,000 variations in the manuscripts we have today. However, these variations represent only 10,000 places in the New Testament (if the same word was misspelled in 3,000 manuscripts, that is counted as 3,000 variations.) Of these 10,000 places, all but 400 are questions of spelling in accord with accepted usage, grammatical construction, or order of words. Of the remaining variations, only 50 are of significance (such as two manuscripts leaving out Acts 2:37). But of these 50, not one alters even one article of faith which cannot be abundantly sustained by other undoubted passages.]There are some manuscripts that date as early as 130 AD, very close to the completion of the New Testament. These manuscripts are nearly identical to those dating 900 years later, thus verifying the accuracy of the scribes.

The New Testament Compared to Classical Literature

BY WAYNE JACKSON
The amazing preservation of the New Testament documents can perhaps be appreciated best by comparing the evidence for their authenticity with that available for the works produced by the classical writers of antiquity.
An abundance of additional material on the manuscript availability for the classical writings can be found in F. W. Hall’s Companion to Classical Texts.
The accumulation of manuscript evidence has been so vast and the work of the scientific textual critic so precise, that we may express complete confidence in the reliability of the New Testament text. While it is true that some minor manuscript variations exist, they are negligible. Westcott and Hort felt that the significantly debatable portions of the New Testament text could hardly amount to more than a thousandth part of the whole—the equivalent of a little more than half a page in the Greek New Testament (Thiessen 1955, 77).
Let me emphasize how impressive this fact really is. The New Testament documents have been in existence almost nineteen hundred years. For fifteen of these centuries they were replicated solely by hand. In spite of this, there are only some twelve to twenty significant textual variations in the entire New Testament, and none of these affect an important doctrinal matter. On the other hand, consider the works of William Shakespeare. These writings have existed less than four centuries (and since the invention of the printing press) and yet:
[I]n every one of Shakespeare’s thirty-seven plays there are probably a hundred readings still in dispute, a large number of which materially affect the meaning of the passages in which they occur” (Hastings 1890, 13; emphasis original).
We can only stand in awe of the providential preservation of the sacred text of the word of God. We can trust the Bible. It is a book by which we can both live and die.

Because of time and wear many of the historical documents from the ancient world have few manuscripts to which we can refer. This is specially true when we consider the secular historians and philosophers. For instance, we only have eight copies of Herodotus's historical works, whose originals were written in 480-425 BC. Likewise, only 5 copies of Aristotle's writings have found their way to the 20th century, while only 10 copies of the writings of Caesar, along with another 20 copies of the historian Tacitus, and 7 copies from the historian Pliny, who all originally wrote in the first century, are available today (McDowell 1972:42). These are indeed very few.

When we consider the New Testament, however, we find a completely different scenario.

First of all, the second sentence of this argument, that the “Bible is the Truth, the word of God” implies that the text in the Bible books are God’s words verbatim. However, we all know, including you

reply to post by autowrench



May I respectfully suggest that you investigate the provided link (and all of its derivatives.)

The Bible Codes

Also please investigate Dr Chuck Misslers' book named "Cosmic Codes".
Also investigate the prophetic accuracy of the Christian Bible.

First of all, the name "Jesus" could not have existed in Ancient Hebrew.

The name JESUS in its english form did not exist in ancient Hebrew. Agreed.
Yeshua (ישוע, with vowel pointing יֵשׁוּעַ - yēšūă‘ in Hebrew) was a common alternative form of the name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ ("Yehoshuah" - Joshua) in later books of the Hebrew Bible and among Jews of the Second Temple period. The name corresponds to the Greek spelling Iesous, from which comes the English spelling Jesus.

In face, there were at least Sixteen Crucified Saviors in history, which one was yours?

THIS IS THE ALERT POSTED BY THE WEBPAGE THAT HOSTS INFORMATION ABOUT THIS BOOK!!!!

ATTENTION: The scholarship of Kersey Graves has been questioned by numerous theists and nontheists alike; the inclusion of his The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors in the Secular Web's Historical Library does not constitute endorsement by Internet Infidels, Inc. This document was included for historical purposes; readers should be extremely cautious in trusting anything in this book.

THIS IS A QUOTE FROM A LINK CONTAINED ON THE SAME WEBPAGE!!!!

Richard Carrier

[Editor's note: This is a conflation of three responses which were made by Richard Carrier to feedback and e-mail involving questions about the scholarhip of Kersey Graves, in particular, and about scholarship, in general, in the subject area about which Graves concerned himself in The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors.]

The World's Sixteen Crucified Saviors: Or Christianity Before Christ is unreliable, but no comprehensive critique exists. Most scholars immediately recognize many of his findings as unsupported and dismiss Graves as useless. After all, a scholar who rarely cites a source isn't useful to have as a reference even if he is right.

Graves often does not distinguish his opinions and theories from what his sources and evidence actually state.
Graves often omits important sources and evidence.
Graves often mistreats in a biased or anachronistic way the sources he does use.
Graves occasionally relies on suspect sources.
Graves does little or no source analysis or formal textual criticism.
Graves' work is totally uninformed by modern social history (a field that did not begin to be formally pursued until after World War II, i.e., after Graves died).
Graves' conclusions and theories often far exceed what the evidence justifies, and he treats both speculations and sound theories as of equal value.
Graves often ignores important questions of chronology and the actual order of plausible historical influence, and completely disregards the methodological problems this creates.
Graves' work lacks all humility, which is unconscionable given the great uncertainties that surround the sketchy material he had to work with.
Graves' scholarship is obsolete, having been vastly improved upon by new methods, materials, discoveries, and textual criticism in the century since he worked. In fact, almost every historical work written before 1950 is regarded as outdated and untrustworthy by historians today.

You quoted;

Gehenna was a garbage dump at a location just outside of Old Jerusalem. Used by Jews of the time to get rid of, or destroy things. Gehenna was a place to cast ones garbage, dead and diseased bodies, the bodies of criminals, and other refuse. In order to ensure complete and utter destruction, the Jews kept the fires of Gehenna always burning. Often fueling the fires with sulfur. The actual location is lost in Time. Is this what we are to be saved from? I think you better see about saving yourself, because no one is going to do it for you. I'm just saying.

Ever heard of a simile? Have you ever logically considered that Jesus was using this as a simile to hell so that the people could get a rough visual, sensory, and practical example of what being cast out of GODs promise of eternal life would be like.
You do know that the Bible uses puns, similies, analogies, metaphors, types and anti-types, poetic devises, acrostics, enigmatic description, allegory.............. and the list goes on.

Nowhere in the Bible does it claim that all 66 books are God’s word, or that any of it is infallible. The doctrine of Biblical inspiration and infallibility was made up by Christian fundamentalists to create an false foundation for their faith system. It is well understood among scholars, and others who read a lot, when reading through Biblical stories, and comparing them to other earlier writings, that a great portion of the Bible has been lifted from earlier writings of other, older cultures.

reply to post by autowrench

Question: "Is there proof for the inspiration of the Bible?"

Answer: Here are some evidences that the Bible is inspired (God-breathed) by God, as declared in 2 Timothy 3:16.

1) Fulfilled prophecy. God spoke to men telling them of things He would bring about in the future. Some of them have already occurred. Others have not. For example, there were more than 300 prophecies concerning Jesus Christ's first coming 2,000 years ago. There is no doubt that these are prophecies from God because of manuscripts and scrolls dated before the birth of Christ. These were not written after the fact. They were written beforehand. Scientific dating proves this.

2) The unity of Scripture. The Bible was written by approximately 40 human authors over a period of approximately 1,600 years. These men were quite diverse. Moses, a political leader; Joshua, a military leader; David, a shepherd; Solomon, a king; Amos, a herdsman and fruit picker; Daniel, a prime minister; Matthew, a tax collector; Luke, a medical doctor; Paul, a rabbi; and Peter, a fisherman; among others. The Bible was also written under a variety of circumstances. It was written on 3 different continents, Europe, Asia, and Africa. Yet, the great themes of Scripture are maintained in all the writings. The Bible does not contradict itself. There is no way, apart from God the Holy Spirit supervising the writing of the Bible, that this could have been accomplished.

Contrast this with the Islamic Koran. It was compiled by one individual, Zaid bin Thabit, under the guidance of Mohammed's father-in-law, Abu-Bekr. Then in A.D. 650, a group of Arab scholars produced a unified version and destroyed all variant copies to preserve the unity of the Koran. The Bible was unified from the time of its writing. The Koran had to be unified through the editing of men.

3) The Bible presents its heroes truthfully with all of their faults and weaknesses. It does not glorify men as other religions do about their heroes. When you read the Bible, you realize that the people it describes have problems and do wrong just as we do. What made them great was that they trusted in God. One example is David. David is described as “a man after God's own heart” (1 Samuel 13:14). Yet, David committed adultery (2 Samuel 11:1-5) and murder (2 Samuel 11:14-26). This could have been left out of Scripture to hide these details of David's life. But God included these things.

4) Archaeological findings support the history recorded in Scripture. Though many unbelieving people throughout history have tried to find archaeological evidence to disprove what is recorded in the Bible, they have failed. It is easy to say that Scripture is untrue. Proving it to be untrue is a different story. It has not been done. In fact, in the past the Bible contradicted the current “scientific” theories, only to be proven later to be in fact true. A good example is Isaiah 40:22, which declared that God “sits on the circle of the earth” long before scientists claimed the earth was flat.

The Bible’s claims of being from God should not be understood as arguing in a circle or by circular reasoning. The testimony of reliable witnesses - particularly of Jesus, but also of others such as Moses, Joshua, David, Daniel, and Nehemiah in the Old Testament, and John and Paul in the New Testament - affirm the authority and verbal inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. Consider the following passages: Exodus 14:1; 20:1; Leviticus 4:1; Numbers 4:1; Deuteronomy 4:2; 32:48; Isaiah 1:10, 24; Jeremiah 1:11; Jeremiah 11:1–3; Ezekiel 1:3; 1 Corinthians 14:37; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; 2 Peter 1:16–21; 1 John 4:6.

Also of interest are the writings of Josephus, an historian who recorded much of the history of Israel during the first century. In this he records some events which coincide with Scripture. Beware though, his writings are rather lengthy. Considering the evidence given, we have no choice but to accept the Bible as being from God (2 Timothy 3:16).

Recommended Resource: Inspiration and Authority of the Bible by Benjamin Warfield.

reply to post by 1king2rulethemall

NONE OF THESE CONDITIONS HAVE BEEN MET OF ISRAEL TO THIS DAY. THEY ARE FUTURE PROPHECIES. AS MANY WELL RESPECTED BIBLE SCHOLARS CONFER.

The prophecies of Jeremiah were of a time in the future to him, which were fulfilled in what would be the past, to us, from our point of view.
Jesus was the fulfillment, along with his establishment of the church.
Gill, who you quoted, and I assume is one of the "respected Bible scholars" you are referring to, spells it out in his commentary, that it is the Israel/the church that signals the time of grace, that fulfills this prophecy.
So I don't see how you are providing a back-up to your cultish philosophy, and if you think there is some in those quotes, if you could be so kind as to point out specifically what it is contained within them that is the support and to point out how it does exactly.