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Ten Courts of Hell

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posted on Oct, 4 2012 @ 09:28 AM
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So do you have a point?
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


YES. My point is that the Old Testament and the New add up to ONE COHESIVE REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.
Without the Old Testament, Jesus wouldn't make sense. Without Jesus, the Old Testament wouldn't make sense.
You yourself have confirmed the intricate relationship of both the Old and the New Testaments with your words... " in New Testament times people saw things in Jesus and his life that corresponded with mentions of things in the Old Testament."
This is because Jesus fulfilled the Old Testament! Before their very eyes, scripture was being fulfilled by Jesus.

Luke 24:27
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he ( Jesus ) explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.




Just ask yourself this simple question friend - How would you (or anyone) know about Jesus without the scriptures?




posted on Oct, 4 2012 @ 12:31 PM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

You still have not offered a defense of your original statement, that you see the "book" itself as the ultimate revelation of God's character.

Would you like to repudiate your earlier statement and accept that you were committing idolatry, but have seen the error of your ways and have now repented and have accepted Jesus as properly fitting that role?

And while you are at it, repent of your other idolatry, of worshiping men instead of Christ as the giver of blessings from God?

Or, how about that you accept Jesus as the Chosen One of God, and that we who believe in him are also chosen by being in Christ, and those who have rejected Jesus are now rejected of God?
edit on 4-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 4 2012 @ 06:47 PM
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In reality, it is a collection of 66 books, penned by some forty authors, over a time span of about 1500+ years. The amazing fact is that it is an integrated message system from outside our known time dimension.

From the very first sentence of the scriptures, to the very last sentence of the scriptures, they speak of Jesus Christ - the common thread weaved throughout the entire Bible. The New Testament is concealed in the Old Testament, and the Old Testament is revealed in the New Testament.

The scriptures are the inspired words of the Creator of all things, and by them, He is made known to us - His character, His nature and His love.

Through each page is revealed the wonderful history of love.
Through each page is revealed the wonderful mystery of love.

Every detail of the life of Jesus was PRE-WRITTEN in the scriptures!

Every detail in the scriptures is there by deliberate design and is about Jesus Christ!



I encourage you, friend, to seriously study the scriptures for yourself. You will be changed forever.
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I can only assume that you are referring to this particular post.
Please read it again - as you are very confused with what it actually says.

I will make it simple and summarise it for you;

Every detail in the scriptures is there by deliberate design and is about Jesus Christ!



Jesus is the theme, the character, the plot. It's all about Jesus. I have never stated anything apart from that during this entire thread! Show me where I have.

From your comments, it is apparent that you are not reading all of the posts, or comprehending at all what is in them.



posted on Oct, 4 2012 @ 07:32 PM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

There is a link on my post.
Click on it, and it it will bring up the post that I am replying to.

I am comprehending your posts, maybe you don't, or don't want to recognize what you did write.
You come off to me as a unrepentant sinner and will probably end up in hell.
edit on 4-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 10:53 AM
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I don't think there is anything specific about Jesus in the old testament concerning his personality.
What there is about him is more about how God chooses him and how God will use him for His own purposes.
Jesus said of all the prophets, there was none greater than John the Baptist. He was not a writer of the old testament but a character in the New Testament, who was told by God to prepare the way for the Lord, then later on was told how to identify that person he was preparing the way for.
John told others of what he was told, and then said that the person who was pointed out by God to him was standing before them.
Jesus then went on to perform miracles that he describes as only possible through the power of God, and used that to back up his claim that he was the very same person who was expected by them as the chosen one of God.
Once it was established that he in fact was the expected one, he proceeded to instruct the people to now pay attention to what he said and what he did, to understand what his personality was.
The OT only served to point to John the Baptist, and from there, he takes over as the most important prophet, and the OT there has reached the end of its usefulness as to revealing the nature and character of God because we have people in the immediate presence of, or are in fact the very person of God.
You can't get any more explicit than that, as for the basis from which to become knowledgeable of the things of God. The OT only establishes the idea that there was the coming of a Messiah, and The Lord, not fully comprehending exactly what that would be like, but having those hopes being described, based on the experiences of whoever happened to be writing about this expectation, in what would end up eventually in what we think of today as the OT.
edit on 5-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 11:35 AM
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About my

will probably end up in hell.
statement in my earlier post:
Saying "Jesus, Jesus" is not going to save you by itself.
Sprinkling Jesus' blood on you does not absolve you of sin but binds you in a covenant with him to do the works of Christ.
If God's gift of the spirit of Christ, through Jesus, is in you, doing that good work, then it is promised that same spirit, which is in us, will do another work, which is to raise us from the dead.
If there is idolatry in your soul, then that spirit is not in you.
Your idolatry has filled in that space within you that would be filled with your repentant heart if it was not blocked from entering.
Your idolatry is to a book and a people you believe is the appropriate object of worship by you.
If you applaud them, you are essentially sacrificing to them. Look up the origin of the word, ovation. It comes from the Roman idea that you sacrifice a lamb in honor of what someone did that you want to recognize.
If you get all happy about these people going to war and taking land from its inhabitants, and you like it, being something normally considered a despicable crime, but you cheer because it is for the benefit of those you worship, you are guilty not only of that idolatry, but also of the guilt of that crime that you have become an accomplice to.



posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 09:50 PM
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There is a link on my post.
Click on it, and it it will bring up the post that I am replying to.
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


I am sorry, but I couldn't find the link that you are referring too.



I am comprehending your posts, maybe you don't, or don't want to recognize what you did write.


Please show me what you are referring too.



I don't think there is anything specific about Jesus in the old testament concerning his personality.


Jesus is the true and better Adam who passed the test in the garden and whose obedience is imputed to us.
Jesus is the true and better Abel who, though innocently slain, has blood now that cries out, not for our condemnation, but for acquittal.
Jesus is the true and better Abraham who answered the call of God to leave all the comfortable and familiar and go out into the void not knowing wither he went to create a new people of God.
Jesus is the true and better Isaac who was not just offered up by his father on the mount but was truly sacrificed for us. And when God said to Abraham, “Now I know you love me because you did not withhold your son, your only son whom you love from me,” now we can look at God taking his son up the mountain and sacrificing him and say, “Now we know that you love us because you did not withhold your son, your only son, whom you love from us.”
Jesus is the true and better Jacob who wrestled and took the blow of justice we deserved, so we, like Jacob, only receive the wounds of grace to wake us up and discipline us.
Jesus is the true and better Joseph who, at the right hand of the king, forgives those who betrayed and sold him and uses his new power to save them.
Jesus is the true and better Moses who stands in the gap between the people and the Lord and who mediates a new covenant.
Jesus is the true and better Rock of Moses who, struck with the rod of God’s justice, now gives us water in the desert.
Jesus is the true and better Job, the truly innocent sufferer, who then intercedes for and saves his stupid friends.
Jesus is the true and better David whose victory becomes his people’s victory, though they never lifted a stone to accomplish it themselves.
Jesus is the true and better Esther who didn’t just risk leaving an earthly palace but lost the ultimate and heavenly one, who didn’t just risk his life, but gave his life to save his people.
Jesus is the true and better Jonah who was cast out into the storm so that we could be brought in.
Jesus is the real Rock of Moses, the real Passover Lamb, innocent, perfect, helpless, slain so the angel of death will pass over us. He’s the true temple, the true prophet, the true priest, the true king, the true sacrifice, the true lamb, the true light, the true bread.

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What there is about him is more about how God chooses him and how God will use him for His own purposes.


My brother, in love, I would like to point out to you that JESUS IS GOD, WHO CAME TO EARTH AS A MAN. Jesus Christ is the eternal GOD of the Old Testament! In your posts you appear to miss this fact.



The OT only served to point to John the Baptist, and from there, he takes over as the most important prophet, and the OT there has reached the end of its usefulness as to revealing the nature and character of God because we have people in the immediate presence of, or are in fact the very person of God.


Mat 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

This is a statement declaring that the law of Moses (which points to Jesus) and the prophetic words, writings and symbols (which point to Jesus) finish at John the Baptiser, and that Jesus has now come as the fulfilment of the law and the prophecies.

Mat 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

In Jesus Christ, we no longer live by the law, but in faith of the grace of salvation by Jesus Christ.
Again, I point out to you........ Without the Old Testament, Jesus wouldn't make sense. Without Jesus, the Old Testament wouldn't make sense.



we have people in the immediate presence of, or are in fact the very person of God.


I am uncertain if this is a typing error by you or not, but what people are the very person of GOD?



posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 09:51 PM
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The OT only served to point to John the Baptist,


The Old Testament served to point to.......

History


Creation


The Fall of Man


Sin Defined


Our Need for a Saviour


The Nature of God


Examples and Warnings


Principles for Godly Living




Sprinkling Jesus' blood on you does not absolve you of sin but binds you in a covenant with him to do the works of Christ.
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


1 John 5:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.

Rev 7:14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Here is a quick questionaire that you may want to participate in.


[align=center]The Cleansing Blood Of Christ


1) (1 John 1:7 & Revelation 1:5) What cleanses us from all sin?

(a)We have no sin to be cleansed.

(b) Nothing can.

(c) The blood of Christ.

2) The blood of Christ is not necessary to cleanse us from our sins.

(T) (F)

3) (John 19:34) Where did Christ shed His blood for us.

(a) In His death on the cross.

(b) When He cut His finger.

(c) He never shed any blood.

4) Our sins are washed away when we come into contact with the cleansing blood of Christ.

(T) (F)

5) (Romans 6:3) How do we get into His death to spiritually come into contact with Christ's blood?

(a) When we die physically.

(b) When we are baptized into His death.

(c) We can't spiritually come into contact with His blood.

6) We come into contact with the saving blood of Christ when we are baptized into His death.

(T) (F)


edit on 5-10-2012 by 1king2rulethemall because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 5 2012 @ 11:33 PM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

I am sorry, but I couldn't find the link that you are referring too.
Like in this post right here, just above what you are reading right now. See where it says "reply to post by 1king2rulethemall", well, click on that highlighted part. It links you to the post that the one you clicked on was a reply to. That way you can know exactly what I am relying to.

Jesus Christ is the eternal GOD of the Old Testament!
Funny how the Bible and the Church missed that somehow.
How is it exactly that you came upon this information?
Was it through your cult?

"we have people in the immediate presence of, or are in fact the very person of God."

I am uncertain if this is a typing error by you or not, but what people are the very person of GOD?
In the story, meaning in the Gospel, John the Baptist is in the presence of Jesus, who is a person of the Godhead.
Someone was there witnessing that event, who wrote about it. That person would have essentially been in God's presence, meaning someone who is a god, in view of the trinity, but maybe not "God" proper, meaning who Jesus referred to as God.
The point being that a book (the OT) that just says to expect someone, doesn't compare to a book (the NT) describing the expected one after he came.
edit on 5-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 12:03 AM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

What cleanses us from all sin?

The correct answer is one not listed in you questionnaire.
What constitutes being cleansed of sin is not sinning.

Your questionnaire is obviously written by someone in your idolatry cult, so the members can think sinning is just fine and keep on doing it because you can just say Jesus died for you sins.
Paul says if you return to sin there is no forgiveness because Jesus is not going to be crucified again.
edit on 6-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 6 2012 @ 07:19 PM
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I believe in God, but my God is an all loving God. I dont believe in a Hell that you do. I believe that Hell is the middle between Heaven and Earth. When you die if you have "demons" to overcome like an addiction, mental disorder, anger, hate, deeds like murder, then I believe you are stuck in Limbo until you get healed. I believe that God loves us even when we do wrong. I think it is rather sad that people would believe that their "Father" would hurt his children. This is why I am not a believer of organized religion. It is based around control and fear.



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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Like in this post right here, just above what you are reading right now. See where it says "reply to post by 1king2rulethemall", well, click on that highlighted part. It links you to the post that the one you clicked on was a reply to. That way you can know exactly what I am relying to.
reply to post by jmdewey60
 

Thank you for making that clear to me.
I do believe that I have already addressed this issue. Please go back and read through the posts that I have made.




Funny how the Bible and the Church missed that somehow.
How is it exactly that you came upon this information?


Ummm..... I read the Bible and I go to church. That is how I came about this information. By GODS grace, He has revealed His truth to me by my hearing of the gospel (in church), and by reading His word (the Christian Bible).
I am not sure about the validity of your claim about the church and the Bible 'missing' Jesus.
Would you be so kind as to supply some evidence for your accusation so that I can investigate for myself your claims? Thank you.




The correct answer is one not listed in you questionnaire.
What constitutes being cleansed of sin is not sinning.


Brother, with love and compassion, I would encourage you to consider what I am writing here. Please read and think about my words - and most of all check them with the scriptures, before you re-post.

I am not judging you here at all, please understand that. I just want you to know the truth.

The Bible clearly states, over and over, that by the Blood of Jesus we are set free from our sins. There is nothing else that redeems us. I have already provided numerous scripture verses to support my words, but I shall provide you even more;

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore, to sanctify the people by his own blood, Jesus also suffered outside the camp.

Rev 12:11 But they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. (THIS IS A PROPHETIC DECLARATION ABOUT JESUS CHRIST)

Exd 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he seeth the blood upon the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in unto your houses to smite [you]. (THIS IS A PROPHETIC DECLARATION ABOUT JESUS CHRIST)

Gen 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. (THIS WAS A PROPHETIC DECLARATION THAT THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD (JESUS' BLOOD) WAS NECESSARY FOR OUR REDEMPTION, AND THAT BY OUR OWN WORKS ( Adam and Eve having made there OWN coverings - fig leaves) WE ARE NOT SAVED)

Jesus sprinkled His own Blood and fulfilled the following types: on the altar (the cross) (Exodus 24:6-8); round about the cross (Exodus 29:12-16); on the High Priest's garments (Exodus 29:20-21). Jesus' Blood was sprinkled seven times (or the number of perfection) (Leviticus 4:6-7); on the bottom of the cross (Leviticus 4:6-7); on the side of the cross (Leviticus 5:9); round about the cross, i.e. on the earth beneath (Leviticus 7:2); sprinkled before the tabernacle seven times (Numbers 19:4). This last was fulfilled in that the cross and the hill of Calvary were within sight of the temple in Jerusalem, for Calvary was outside the city wall. All these Old testament types were fulfilled in the crucifixion of Jesus, who made Himself our Passover, our vicar, our Savior, and our Blood sacrifice. His Blood alone covers our sins.




What constitutes being cleansed of sin is not sinning.


This is a very dangerous belief to hold on to my friend. The Bible says that "all fall short of the glory of GOD."
Also;

Ecc 7:20 For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Ecc 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.

Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We are all sinners - we all sin - because we are descendants of Adam. Adams sin is imputed to us. If we are to rely on being 'cleansed of sin by not sinning' then we are all doomed. The only person who has not sinned is Jesus Christ. That is why it is possible for Him to be our substitute on the cross. The Bible states in the book of Revelation that "none are worthy, not one". It is by Jesus' blood only that we are cleansed of sin. Not by our own works of 'not sinning'.



posted on Oct, 7 2012 @ 09:41 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Consider Paul's letter to the church at Philippi, in which he lists the reasons as to why he COULD boast, as he obeyed the law flawlessly, (not sinning). But then consider his conclusion to his perfection in the law - He considers it 'dung'.
This is because He was enlightened with the knowledge that it is Christ's blood alone which cancels his sin.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (this is by faith in the atoning blood of Jesus).

You are correct brother, in the fact that a Christian cannot keep on WILFULLY sinning. (even then we are guilty of that!) because if we do then the crucifixion of Jesus is nullified.

It is a mindset that we must have not to sin. It is the choice not to sin. It is the hate of sin that we must strive for - and not in our own strength, but in the strength of the Holy Spirit.

Also consider Paul's letter to the Romans (Romans 7). He states that his body cannot but help sin. His mind doesn't want to sin, but his flesh does.

Notice his statement ending the chapter;

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Please also read Leviticus. The whole book is a 'type' for the cleansing sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ on the cross, to atone for the sins of the people.




Was it through your cult?




You come off to me as a unrepentant sinner and will probably end up in hell.


Another point that I would like to bring out friend is your frequent use of derogatory tone and degenerating words.

Doesn't the gospel call us to love? Doesn't the gospel call us to serve? Doesn't the gospel call us to be humble? Doesn't the gospel call us to love even our enemies - speaking blessing over them when the curse us? Doesn't the gospel call us to correct our brothers and sisters with gentle words, and meekness, and care?

"Love one thy neighbour as you love yourself"

My friend, please be careful of the words that you choose in conversation.

Remember that Jesus says that we will be judged by our own words.

With love I say to you - by the words that you are choosing to use - you are committing sin.




What constitutes being cleansed of sin is not sinning.


Are you not saved?

Remember that Jesus says that we will be judged by our own words.

Be blessed my friend.



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 07:32 AM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

I do believe that I have already addressed this issue.
OK, I think I am now seeing the problem, what is causing this failure to communicate. When you earlier said "The scriptures are the inspired words of the Creator of all things, and by them, He is made known to us - His character, His nature and His love.", I naturally assumed that you meant God. Now when I say, naturally, I mean as one who is a trinitarian Christian would understand another. When you made that remark, I did not yet understand that you were not in fact not a Christian, but something else, probably a Messianic Jew, or a related heretical cult pseudo-theology.
You have settled into a non-trinitarian belief that Jesus is the same person as the "The Lord" character in the old testament, which in my thinking, means you do not believe in the New Testament, but just a fuzzy belief that God shows up at some point looking remarkably like a human being.

I am not sure about the validity of your claim about the church and the Bible 'missing' Jesus.
Probably at least 99% of churches are of the trinitarian (meaning orthodox) variety. You seem to be under some sort of cult indoctrination induced delusion that all Christianity believes like you, that there is no trinity and God and Jesus are the same person.
My suggestion is for you to attempt a cult deprogramming, starting by discontinuing attending whatever church you had been going to which preaches this man-made philosophy which will end you (and everyone else in it) up in hell.

The Bible clearly states, over and over, that by the Blood of Jesus we are set free from our sins. There is nothing else that redeems us. I have already provided numerous scripture verses to support my words, but I shall provide you even more;
You haven't, since there are no verses that support what your heretical cult apparently has brainwashed you into believing. The central theme of the New Testament is an exhortation to believers to righteousness. The theme of the NT is not that we no longer have to worry about righteousness since we can use Jesus' blood like a credit card to pay for our sins as we go.
To be really "set free" from our sins", we would attain a condition in which we are not committing sins. Every verse that you look at about righteousness, you fail to understand because you have been taught to not understand it, by your cult. I would encourage you to get away from that cult and seek the true God who does not deal with a pretend world and a pretend righteousness. God demands real righteousness which is gained by actually being righteous, not just assuming that God is going to imagine you are righteous, and accept that as good enough.
edit on 8-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 08:32 AM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

I am not judging you here at all, please understand that. I just want you to know the truth.
I am judging the cult philosophy of devils that you unfortunately have been apparently brainwashed into believing.
It may be of no fault of your own, meaning you may have been born into a family of cult members. You do at some point have to take personal responsibility for what you believe, and you will not be allowed to offer the circumstance of your birth as an excuse for your damnable errors.
You do not believe in any sort of orthodox Christianity, to the point that I would not even consider you to be a Christian at all. There is a fake version of Christianity out there, that you, it seems, have fallen into. It seems on the surface as if it could be Christianity, but at closer examination, it shows itself to be something else altogether.

There is nothing else that redeems us.
OK, so what do you think this word, "redeem" means? "Saves" you? Meaning what? That everyone in the world who has ever lived, automatically will go to heaven? The New Testament uses the word to mean that you were taken out from among the sinners of the world, to live a life of righteousness. If you do not believe that, then let this be an indication to you how far astray your cult has led you.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore, to sanctify the people by his own blood, Jesus also suffered outside the camp.
Sanctify means here to be set apart for a better purpose. This is what I am talking about. Set apart for righteousness. If you think that it means something else, then that is a result of the lies spoken to you by Satan through the preacher in your cult meetings.

Rev 12:11 But they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb,
Revelation is a book full of visions of symbols so this has to be understood as being said in a highly metaphorical way. "Overcome" has a correspondence with other parts of the NT, and it means to not sin. If you think there is some other way to overcome, then you are under a Satanic delusion and will end up in hell if you do not repent.

Jesus sprinkled His own Blood and fulfilled the following types:
The old testament sacrificial system was never intended as a substitute for righteousness. Serious and/or intentional sins were dealt with with harsh punishments. According to Hebrews, Jesus' blood served as assuring his entry into the most holy place, which is what the high priest would do on the annual judgment day, where the people of the congregation will either be accepted by The Lord, or not. You are repeating some sort of formula made up by your cult, which is in error and serves only to further the slide of those who buy into it, into hell.

This is a very dangerous belief to hold on to my friend. The Bible says that "all fall short of the glory of GOD."
First of all, it doesn't say that. Paul says 'all have fallen', past tense. What is dangerous is believing you can't possibly overcome your sinning. This attitude serves only to squash the voice of your conscience telling you when you are doing wrong, and warning you not to sin, and to feel bad for when you did sin. You resign yourself to just being a perpetual sinner, while Satan stands beside you, laughing.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
In a collective sense. There will always be a degree of sinfulness in the community, and if the leadership ignores it, and passes on its noncritical seal of approval and just tells the congregation how good they are, then they are false teachers.

That is why it is possible for Him to be our substitute on the cross.
That is a theory that was thought up by Augustine but is not in the Bible. It never spells out the concept in the NT, but is something possibly arrived at through philosophizing, trying to apply features from the old testament to the NT, rather than just taking what are the teaching of the NT itself.

The Bible states in the book of Revelation that "none are worthy, not one".
I don't think so, and even if it did, you have taken it out of context to mean something completely different.

It is by Jesus' blood only that we are cleansed of sin. Not by our own works of 'not sinning'.
And how do you think that works, exactly? This "cleansing"? Do you think that God can not forgive you unless there is payment first, and in blood? If that was the case, then why is that not in the NT? Or are people just supposed to assume that is the case, from reading the OT? Is this what is meant by you saying you can't understand the NT without the OT? That is wrong because there are contradictions, and what you are doing is when you find a contradiction, you nullify the NT in favor of the old.
Works are exactly what is called for in the Bible. The "works" spoken of negatively are the laws that are just for show and don't help anyone. The spirit does a work in us to make us able to overcome but we still have to live our lives, so only by works can you overcome and enter into heaven. Sinners will in no way enter heaven.
edit on 8-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 8 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by 1king2rulethemall
 

Consider Paul's letter to the church at Philippi, in which he lists the reasons as to why he COULD boast, as he obeyed the law flawlessly, (not sinning). But then consider his conclusion to his perfection in the law - He considers it 'dung'.
This is because He was enlightened with the knowledge that it is Christ's blood alone which cancels his sin.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: (this is by faith in the atoning blood of Jesus).
You are completely misquoting Paul here, and then adding your own interpretation which only comes from your cult teachings.
He is "enlightened" by the knowledge of a righteousness that is better than any righteousness that can be gained by keeping a law.
Paul wants that righteousness, the righteousness of Jesus. He is not talking about blood or a pretend righteousness that someone can get instantly by "accepting" Jesus' blood. That is just the delusion of Satan transmitted through your cult to make you not see what is plainly before your eyes and to imagine you are seeing something completely different.

This is because He was enlightened with the knowledge that it is Christ's blood alone which cancels his sin.
There is a Pauline writing that uses the word, cancelled, but it is talking about the old law being cancelled. How is your sin "cancelled", unless you stop sinning?

Also consider Paul's letter to the Romans (Romans 7). He states that his body cannot but help sin. His mind doesn't want to sin, but his flesh does.
That is your cult philosophy influenced interpretation, not what it actually says.

Notice his statement ending the chapter;

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
He also asks the question, "Is the law sin?", which he answers with "no", but identifies another "law" which is that what he wishes to do is not what he does. He does not take it the necessary further step to where he is admitting to committing sins. It is really more about how our bodies have not caught up with our spirits, and will not, probably until the resurrection, while right now, though we are alive in the flesh, we are dead in regards to the old law.

Another point that I would like to bring out friend is your frequent use of derogatory tone . . .
I'm not going to play nice with Satan. So don't take it personally. You need to face reality, that you belong to a cult and are far away from real Christianity and are among those who are bound for hell. I would suggest that you depart company from them and get away from this nonsense that God desires sacrifice instead of obedience.

Are you not saved?
There is no being "saved" as in the past tense, in the Bible. Those who overcome and find themselves in heaven can at that time consider themselves saved, but not before. You can believe that you will be saved, and in your mind are already in heaven, so in a way you are "saved by faith". But it is not real until you get there, it is only a hope until then.
edit on 8-10-2012 by jmdewey60 because: add Bible quote: "For the creation eagerly waits for the revelation of the sons of God." Romans 8:19



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 07:54 AM
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You have settled into a non-trinitarian belief..........
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


1. Before I comment, may I ask what your definition of the ' Trinitarian belief ' is?




When you earlier said "The scriptures are the inspired words of the Creator of all things, and by them, He is made known to us - His character, His nature and His love.", I naturally assumed that you meant God.


You assumed correctly - I was talking about GOD.




You have settled into a non-trinitarian belief that Jesus is the same person as the "The Lord" character in the old testament, which in my thinking, means you do not believe in the New Testament, but just a fuzzy belief that God shows up at some point looking remarkably like a human being.


John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”



John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”


Hebrews 2:17,18 - “Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.”
Hebrews 4:15,16 - “For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.”
1 Peter 2:24 - “who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we having died to sins, might live for righteousness - by whose stripes you were healed.”

He went from sovereignty to shame and from deity to death? Why!? For you.
John 15:13 - “Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.”
Romans 5:8 - “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”




You seem to be under some sort of cult indoctrination induced delusion that all Christianity believes like you, that there is no trinity and God and Jesus are the same person.


Jesus said Himself that He was GOD. I am not going to disagree with Jesus.
Since you only seem to be interested in half of the scriptures, I will prove to you from that half that Jesus Christ is the eternal GOD.

Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”



John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”

There is so much to your comments that I would like to address, but for the lack of time, I will limit it to only a very few more.




That is a theory that was thought up by Augustine but is not in the Bible. It never spells out the concept in the NT,


2 Corinthians 5:21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

Romans 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Romans 3:25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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I don't think so, and even if it did, you have taken it out of context to mean something completely different.
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Rev 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
Rev 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;




This "cleansing"? Do you think that God can not forgive you unless there is payment first, and in blood? If that was the case, then why is that not in the NT?



Hebrews 9:22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Leviticus 17:11 For the life of a creature is in the blood, and I have given it to you to make atonement for yourselves on the altar; it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life.




If that was the case, then why is that not in the NT?


IT IS IN THE NT! IT IS THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS CHRIST THAT IS THE SHEDDING OF BLOOD FOR OUR SINS!!!! JESUS DIED FOR US - IN OUR PLACE!!!!



posted on Oct, 11 2012 @ 07:55 AM
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Works are exactly what is called for in the Bible. The "works" spoken of negatively are the laws that are just for show and don't help anyone. The spirit does a work in us to make us able to overcome but we still have to live our lives, so only by works can you overcome and enter into heaven.
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Ephesians 2:8, 9; Romans 3:20, 28; Galatians 2:16 and James 2:24; Matthew 19:16-21

Saved by grace
(Ephesians 2:8-9) - "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20, 28) - "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16) - "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."

Saved by works
(James 2:24) - "You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."
(Matthew 19:16-17) - "And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" 17And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works.

In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace through faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in the sight of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by grace through faith.




How is your sin "cancelled", unless you stop sinning?


That is my point - it isn't cancelled, because we don't stop sinning. The Scriptures clearly state that no one can stop sinning. Therefore, Jesus had to die and become our payment for that sin. Jesus had to shed His blood to make atonement for our sins. The Scriptures clearly state that there is no other way.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.




The central theme of the New Testament is an exhortation to believers to righteousness.


The 'central theme' of the New Testament is that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, who fulfils all the requirements of the Jewish law, who dies for the sins of all mankind, and in His death and resurrection believers have the promise of eternal life.




OK, so what do you think this word, "redeem" means? "Saves" you? Meaning what? That everyone in the world who has ever lived, automatically will go to heaven? The New Testament uses the word to mean that you were taken out from among the sinners of the world, to live a life of righteousness.


Firstly, the word 'Redeemed' in biblical terminology means;

1) to ransom, redeem, rescue, deliver
a) (Qal) to ransom
b) (Niphal) to be ransomed
c) (Hiphil) to allow one to be ransomed
d) (Hophal) redeemed
(Strongs concordance)

Secondly, please show me where I have stated "that everyone in the world who has ever lived automatically go to heaven?




Sanctify means here to be set apart for a better purpose. This is what I am talking about. Set apart for righteousness.


You have conveniently overlooked the words "BY HIS BLOOD" in Hebrews 13:12, which is the point that I was making when referencing that verse.






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