19 Yr Old Hostage Gunned Down By Police While Escaping Captor

Although I don't know the full story...I would say as a cop/swat officer I would look for two things in something like this...did he have a weapon visible and were his hands visible....without knowing much I can say if the victim did have his hands in his pockets or something and wasnt complying to commands while at the same time the suspect was shooting out of a window an officer on the other end may have interpreted that as the guy running out shooting at him/her if they couldnt see the victims hands.

Its a horrible scenario with a horrible result. You guys don't realize that cops don't get enough training in these areas....especially in smaller departments. I'm not saying what the cop did was right by any means, but these are some difficult situations and honestly for how difficult the job of being a cop is...probably only 20% of the current police officers are ready to actually do everything the job entails.

In Graham vs Connor things come into play that you wouldnt think of....for example...if the victim was deaf and didn't comply with commands...that is not the officers fault...unless the officer knew the individual was deaf. What im saying is there may have been no information whether the guy running out was the victim/hostage, and may have even fit the desrcription of the suspect.

I can't tell you how many calls we have had where the public mis identifies the suspect as the victim or the victim as the suspect...

Sad story either way...I can promise you no cop wants to harm an innocent individual guys and girls. Or atleast no cop I know.

reply to post by GoldenRuled


So the lesson learned here is your better off sticking it out and taking up arms with your captors.

Patty Hearst not so stupid.

reply to post by Kastogere


I don't know of any gun safety instructor that hasn't stressed that you must always identify your target before pointing your firearm and firing. And I have a hard time believing that law enforcement receives opposite training from that simple instruction. Add in the fact that several law enforcement members on ATS have posted many times that their training is not shoot to injure but rather shoot to kill. That means in this situation the officers who fired their weapons did so with the intent to kill. And they did so to an unidentified target.

What a terrible tragedy and horrible situation. It's almost as tragic to see so many people blame the cops 100% as if everyone were out there on a social call and the cops just went postal by shooting this guy for the hell of it.

I don't know what the situation was like in those moments that caused them to fire on a hostage running, except to say we know they had just taken what THEY had every reason to think was gunfire directed at THEM. It says the hostage taker fired at the hostage trying to kill him.....and before he became visible to everyone....but missed.

Okay...so..lets consider this for one short moment. The hostage is running from the hostage taker and we're all in the same 3-D world. So...missing him while the guy is running toward the door and police put the MISSED shots going past the guy and AT POLICE. I wonder which cop gor the 'angry bees' by his ears to give them impression the madman running out next was firing on them?

Think back to Young Guns II and the scene where they put the small town cop out the door, dressed as the Indian (Chavez) but ...right AFTER yelling a threat and shooting a few times in general directions. The towns people in the movie shoot the crap out of their own town cop. ......quite like how I'd imagine the scene and tragedy must have looked here.


Oh......but let's naturally, blame the cops.... Just the cops..and ALWAYS the cops. It's not the fault of the cockroach that took the hostages and CAUSED the situation where a hostage would be running at police, bullets coming first and scaring the cops into shooting whatever came after the gunfire they just had fired AT THEM (by all impressions they had).

There is being anti-cop..and then there is just being foolish. A man is dead....and it's a tragedy. Now let's see them try, convict and execute the bastard who CAUSED IT. He's in their jail as we speak.

In the policemans mind he was a future criminal anyways.

Originally posted by cosmicexplorer
without knowing much I can say if the victim did have his hands in his pockets or something

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he didn't have his hands in his pockets while frantically running for his life from a crazed gunman....

Originally posted by Maroboduus

Originally posted by cosmicexplorer
without knowing much I can say if the victim did have his hands in his pockets or something

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that he didn't have his hands in his pockets while frantically running for his life from a crazed gunman....

Well what if the victim was wounded and was holding his wound? Which appeared to be inside the pocket of a jacket...Im not saying this happened...im just bringing up the possibility.

Originally posted by Kastogere
Honestly I dont see how the police are at fault for this...granted they should have hesitated....yet when gun fire is involved would you expect any less of a reaction?

You're contradicting yourself.

Should they have hesitated or not?

They are in protective clothing, they have training, they have medical teams standing by, they have vehicles to hide behind, they ARE PAID TO DO THIS DANGEROUS JOB, and yet still people make excuses for bad training, bad practice, negligence and eventually murder.

If people join the police to protect and serve people, they should do the freakin' job and stop wimping out, then hiding behind a badge when they f-up!

I;m sick of all the apologists for the police. Yes they do a dangerous job, and they are well paid for that job too. They are given everything they need to have an advantage over the people they pursue, and yet when they mess up in such an incredible way they are forgiven - because it's a dangerous job!

No sh*t Sherlock, it's a shame these people weren't told how dangerous their job is when they joined... oh wait, THEY KNEW ALREADY!

Originally posted by Kastogere
reply to post by MrWendal

 

How are you seeing a contradition in that statement, been reading a dicitonary? I said I didnt fault them for what they did..they're trained to do that. I simply pointed out they should have hesitated on the back end...you have a way of twisting intent...you and my ex ought to get together and go bowling.

Logic is clearly something new to you, so let me try again. This is your statement..

Honestly I dont see how the police are at fault for this...granted they should have hesitated....

If you admit they should have hesitated before shooting multiple rounds at an unarmed man- and they failed to hesitate- that is why they are at fault.

No one is "twisting" your words. This is what you said. This is like saying, "I don't see why I was given a speeding ticket, I was only doing 5 mph over the limit".

Besides, I can see why your ex is your ex. We probably should go bowling. I enjoy the company of intelligent people.

Originally posted by LittleBlackEagle
when you want your life to be in danger, call the cops, they'll make sure it is.

Yep. The newest form of suicide w/o the consequences of going to hell for the sin of suicide. Which is a sin because it is un-repent-able [killing,murder]

reply to post by MrWendal


Its all well and good to critisise the Police but have you ever tried doing their job?

someone is shooting and this guy runs out...The police did hesitate by asking him to stop and get on his knees..How much hesitation do you want. He doesn't comply and is shot.

If you live in the USA which thankfully I don't, you know that compliance with the Police is the healthy choice to make, otherwise you can be in a world of hurt. Not saying I agree with these methods but thats how it is.

this poor individual should not have been shot and wouldn't have been if he complied.

reply to post by GoldenRuled


This is a highly disturbing and disgusting story to read.

You see so many people commenting in various threads "what will it take for the people to stand up?" Nothing. You're all lazy and weak.

An innocent and frightened person was shot dead by your police, and instead of rallying a community together to get justice, you sit here blaming, commenting and pretending.

Originally posted by brew8537
this poor individual should not have been shot and wouldn't have been if he complied.

You people are driving me crazy. Somebody was shooting at him from behind, how the hell do you expect him to drop to his knees? Have some common sense.

reply to post by jonnywhite


With all due respect jonny, this isn't a war zone yet, and perhaps this is a fine example of why soldiers coming home should not be put into the employ of what we used to call civil service [& to protect and serve].

Your argument may sound good and even look good on paper or in type, but in reality [funeral homes, sufferage], not so much. If there has to be evil it should not be permitted in the police force or academy.

Just my opinion ...

Cops trained to act as Military and not as Cops. This is what you get. Citizens are the threat. The enemy. You see it over and over now. Not too long ago the Chief would be forced to resign and the firing squad would be unemployeed. They work for us.

Originally posted by brew8537

 

Its all well and good to critisise the Police but have you ever tried doing their job?

No I have not. I would not make a good Police Officer and I know this because a reaction like the one in this case is something that I would probably be guilty of myself if I was... and that is why I am NOT a Police Officer and why these people shouldn't be either.

someone is shooting and this guy runs out...The police did hesitate by asking him to stop and get on his knees..How much hesitation do you want. He doesn't comply and is shot.

Normally I would agree with your position, however this is a hostage situation. You don't know who is running out of that building. It could be the gunman or it could be a hostage. The fact that this is a hostage situation changes the normal protocol. This means that your "perp" is mixed in with "innocents" who are being held against their will. This is why most tactical units use Snipers in these types of situations, so as to not harm the "innocents".

Asking a hostage to stop and get on his knees, while he is running away from a gunman who is firing shots at him, it not realistic in any way. You can not expect the man to stop running. He is in a panic and high stress situation, expecting him to act calm and rational is just silly. He is not trained for these situations, unlike Police who are.

If you live in the USA which thankfully I don't, you know that compliance with the Police is the healthy choice to make, otherwise you can be in a world of hurt. Not saying I agree with these methods but thats how it is.

I do live in this US and you are correct in saying that compliance is the healthy choice to make, but compliance in this case was not realistic.

this poor individual should not have been shot and wouldn't have been if he complied.

Yeah.. what a nice option to have. Stop running and maybe get shot by a criminal or keep running and get shot by Police who are supposed to be there to help you.

reply to post by MrWendal

Yeah.. what a nice option to have. Stop running and maybe get shot by a criminal or keep running and get shot by Police who are supposed to be there to help you.

If we didn't have the bastard alive who started all this and actually set this situation up to result in a dead hostage, I'd wonder if he'd done this deliberately. You describe it there 100% accurate....because that really is what the poor victim faced. Like the old Russian army. Charge!...and die or Retreat!..and the NKVD can shoot them instead.

As it happens...it doesn't appear anyone did or could have understood the horrible dynamics of the situation as it was happening... The bad guy was acting like a typical stupid bad guy with all the mental power of a Geo Metro on race day. The Hostage was running FROM gunfire and probably in a blind panic. The cops just got shot AT and this wild man is now charging them and ignoring them completely. ....It's not like that hasn't happened and recently too...with real bad guys vs. cops.

All around...the perfect storm of stupid - panic - fear and a dead innocent literally in the middle to show for it. The hostage TAKER is the one who could have prevented every single thing that happened. May he burn for it all.

reply to post by brew8537


but we should not be shot at if we don't comply.....or if tresspassing, or for running from a leo, or from a night-time burglary..... the area was well enough populated to capture the running man by anybody at any time.

Originally posted by Frankenchrist
The po po saw a black man running.

The po po thinks a black man running is a bad guy.

The black man is now dead.

could have been black "po po", racist

I live right down the street from the motel.

My girlfriend is from this small suburb (woodbury), so i always get to hear the boring stories about every random person she remembers from highschool that we run into.

She personally knew like half of the current police in woodbury. as several of them are all fresh out of the police academy, or whatever training is involved.
So it is very likely at least 1 of the 3 police involved, are of these young, excited, just out of training, kids. needing to either prove his worth as a cop, or is just to green, and got easily scared.

this town ranks #11 for best city to live in, in the US 2012 re: health, economy, employment, crime
money.cnn.com...

right next to 2 other ranking suburbs on the list.
its apparently safe here. or maybe the police have it way TO cozy.