Cold Hard Reality

Originally posted by MamaJ

Some of us could have fell while the rest of us are trying to help the fallen.

It makes more sense to me everyday.

Fell as in became separate from the one consciousness so here and now on earth we find ourself incomplete and separate from God, which in this realm we are.

We are learning daily how to decipher between good and bad because it was created by us in the material world.

The further away we go from God, the worse ( bad) it gets and the darkness tries to envelope the soul.

I love the way you think Mama, though I see the separation more as a necessary process more than a conscious descision by a lesser entity (human souls) to separate or fall.

My thoughts can be summed up I guess in this thread I wrote a little while ago.

I'll definitely have a look at your posts you refered me to earlier but at the moment all I've got is my phone and some airport lounge computer which makes things a little tricky

reply to post by 1littlewolf


Sorry the link won't work and yes, please look at the thoughts I offered the other day so you can see maybe where I'm at in my jouney thus far.

We seem to think along the same lines so you should be able to understand more clearly while others journey may not have been scientific coupled with spirituality.

The human /soul is not what finds itself trapped, but the spirit of the soul is bogged down from matter here on Earth. It drains our light, so to speak.

It's like our father and or creator is allowing us to undo what we did.... But in " time" where the material world makes it harder, yet at the same time quicker.

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

I don't think the statement "everything is merely energy" is proven. Everything has energy in it, but is not merely energy. Yes energy and mass are interconnected, and much mass is derived from the interactive energy between quarks in protons etc. but all is not energy. A quark is a particle.

To further the discussion, all matter is more or less 'energy' and this has been confirmed. A quark appears to be a 'particle' but this is in fact merely a name we apply to it when it is measured and it gives a real world value. In reality all these elementary particles are simply just different parts of a system which we understand little about. I do not believe (as to many others who know far more about the subject than I so) that they are as 'differentiated' as the posters in highschool lead us to believe. It merely seems that way when we measure specific parts of the system.

Two links which may interest you:

The simple answer :- www.askamathematician.com...

Ever so slightly more complicated answer:- www.newscientist.com...

Originally posted by MamaJ

Sorry the link won't work and yes, please look at the thoughts I offered the other day so you can see maybe where I'm at in my jouney thus far.

We seem to think along the same lines so you should be able to understand more clearly while others journey may not have been scientific coupled with spirituality.

The human /soul is not what finds itself trapped, but the spirit of the soul is bogged down from matter here on Earth. It drains our light, so to speak.

It's like our father and or creator is allowing us to undo what we did.... But in " time" where the material world makes it harder, yet at the same time quicker.

Fixed the link but here it is again anyway.............. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Is the spirit 'bogged' down in matter or does simply condense light and then draw it to itself to form a physical shell to enable it to fulfil its functions within a material universe.

As for your last paragraph..... What did we do which requires undoing? I'm guessing you mean 'the fall' but just out of curiosity why do you believe we separated from God in the first place? Also I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your very last sentence.

reply to post by NorEaster

Originally posted by NorEaster


You folks on ATS should be open to the realization that human beings have always leveraged advantage against their fellow human beings, and yet, it's as though you forget that people are who they have created of themselves when those people finally escape the confines of their material husks. The truth is that no one changes after they die. They just find new ways of getting over on others - if they've always been the sort of people who seek to take advantage over others. Religion and spirituality has been the most effective scam against those crossing from this realm to the eternal realm.

Why would a soul free of the limitations of the physical - hunger, pain, shelter, sex, instinct, reliance on physcial senses - need to leverage advantage against another soul. And what would that advantage be?

Originally posted by arpgme

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope
reply to post by 1littlewolf

 

Also there's nothing to show that energy is affected by conscious thought. There's no evidence of that. Yes, there's speculation on it. I've argued this before, but refuse to do it again. Maybe in private if you wish. Check out this experiment: A quantum delayed choice experiment. It's recent and pertains to the topic.

I did a little research and it said that the present can determine the past. I still don't understand the experiment though, can you explain how it means that?

I am a layman. Trying to explain it would be humorous. Rather than risk embarrassment, I'll point you in the direction of any physicist, Hawking's latest book for example, and read about 'quantum entanglement'. I brought up this experiment because rather than utilize any "which-path" information, they use something else allowing them to view both particles and waves at the same time, negating the strange idea that our mere observance collapses the wave-function.

reply to post by MamaJ


Light can be trapped by matter (light a light on a wall),

if spirit is light, why are we stuck in these bodies instead of being able to get out, and why is astro-projection so difficult if spirit/light has the advantage over matter?

I know it may seem like I am just going against what you say, but I'm not. I'm trying to get answers, and it would be amazing if you come up with a good answer.

(My bad, I just realized that I'm replying to you to a question I asked on a different thread, I thought it was the same one)

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by LesMisanthrope

I don't think the statement "everything is merely energy" is proven. Everything has energy in it, but is not merely energy. Yes energy and mass are interconnected, and much mass is derived from the interactive energy between quarks in protons etc. but all is not energy. A quark is a particle.

To further the discussion, all matter is more or less 'energy' and this has been confirmed. A quark appears to be a 'particle' but this is in fact merely a name we apply to it when it is measured and it gives a real world value. In reality all these elementary particles are simply just different parts of a system which we understand little about. I do not believe (as to many others who know far more about the subject than I so) that they are as 'differentiated' as the posters in highschool lead us to believe. It merely seems that way when we measure specific parts of the system.

Two links which may interest you:

The simple answer :- www.askamathematician.com...

Ever so slightly more complicated answer:- www.newscientist.com...

I understand that the energy, or the gauge boson holding quarks together adds mass to the particle, but the end result isn't energy. Out of the 18 elementary particles, only 4 are classified as energy. Those 4 particles, gauge bosons, need quarks to add any mass to anything.

Originally posted by 1littlewolf

Originally posted by MamaJ

Sorry the link won't work and yes, please look at the thoughts I offered the other day so you can see maybe where I'm at in my jouney thus far.

We seem to think along the same lines so you should be able to understand more clearly while others journey may not have been scientific coupled with spirituality.

The human /soul is not what finds itself trapped, but the spirit of the soul is bogged down from matter here on Earth. It drains our light, so to speak.

It's like our father and or creator is allowing us to undo what we did.... But in " time" where the material world makes it harder, yet at the same time quicker.

Fixed the link but here it is again anyway.............. www.abovetopsecret.com...

Is the spirit 'bogged' down in matter or does simply condense light and then draw it to itself to form a physical shell to enable it to fulfil its functions within a material universe.

As for your last paragraph..... What did we do which requires undoing? I'm guessing you mean 'the fall' but just out of curiosity why do you believe we separated from God in the first place? Also I'm sorry but I don't quite understand your very last sentence.

edit on 6/9/2012 by 1littlewolf because: (no reason given)

I believe we separated because we wanted to hang out here on Earth before it was ever in material form. We were first nothing but a spirit until God decided we needed a soul so we could be in good company ( companions).

During the creation of the earth our souls became entangled with matter because of our own free will.

Homo sapiens were made after the evolved ape this is why evolution is partly true.

Sex is here so we can have birth and bring in souls who are trying to obtain their goals such as Jesus did and many others.

Our subconscious mind is the soul and this is why we have a record when we are done with this life or before we come back.

We are incarnating time and time again to obtain Christ consciousness.

This is not the only place though as Jesus tells us there are many mansions.

There are countless other planets and solar systems. There are countless living organisms and systems in our own bodies. We are a reflection of the creator.

We are more than just a human being. We are mind, spirits and souls. We are time travelers and we have a lot of power.... If only we could all just remember.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Kashai

 

A materialistic can argue that the different reactions are from the diverse personality (genetic, etc.)
You are saying that because there are different responses... therefore a separate brain?

Like I said before, I am open minded to the idea, but I don't think it's fair to argue something by saying we don't "understand this or that" therefore it must not be true and the other idea must be...

That is not proper evidence.

A materialist can say for example " if the mind is separate why don't many people remember anything before the body?" - or any other thing that we don't have an explanation of evidence for, then from their side, they can try to use that as some sort of so-called evidence saying "spiritualists can't explain that so the mind is physical".

Testing a population is proper evidence, it is the only real evidence in relation to science as we understand it today.

Dr. Carl Jung was in reality an atheist, nonetheless this expert in the field, who had spent quality time with indigenous cultures. Realized that the human condition was beyond the sum of its parts. A potential explanation for why "many people" do not remember life after death is akin to the having four blind men describe an elephant, having approached the animal from four different angles.

Take the conclusion of the multiverse, with each droppleganger being akin to a facet in a diamond. The variation as often described, being difference's as a whole. Bespeak, of a perceptual experience that encompass the whole, these differences could represent.

Mentioning DNA as a part of the thinking process, in relation to individuation? Brings up the issue that while we can look at a strand of DNA, that DNA also has a wave form. A matter related to attenuation comes to mind.

In relation to how an observed structure can affect its wave form that is a relelvant issue today with science and philosophy.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


I heard one theory which said that while neuron synapses have a connection to thought - thought may have a connection to the entire nervous system itself - meaning that thought is happening not just in the brain but throughout the body...

If The DNA is the most important thing for thought/life, then our liver should be the most vital thing alive...
and yet, so many spiritualists say it is the heart while the liver makes the most DNA...

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Kashai

 

I heard one theory which said that while neuron synapses have a connection to thought - thought may have a connection to the entire nervous system itself - meaning that thought is happening not just in the brain but throughout the body...

If The DNA is the most important thing for thought/life, then our liver should be the most vital thing alive...
and yet, so many spiritualists say it is the heart while the liver makes the most DNA...

Actually the reason that Altzheimers causes death is because it shuts down the parts of the brain that regulate the bodies ability to function. This in relation to the brain stem, that in reptiles constitutes most of the brain in general. Stem cell research makes clear the difference between cells inside the Brain and the cells inside a Liver....

Clearly there is a difference.

You see that a person can die because the brain is degraded. presents that the bodies ability to survive is dependent upon the brains efficacy.

Any thoughts?

reply to post by Kashai


I really enjoy reading your thoughts, not sure if I've told you before, and if so, I'm telling you again.

reply to post by Kashai


So even though DNA is supposed to be the main thing for life (and thought?) the liver produces the most but the brain is still more important.

There was a theory that although the brain is functioning the body - the nervous system mange though and runs throughout the body like the nervous system.

reply to post by arpgme


While discussing the human anatomy and the importance of the brain and nervous system is really cool, I tell ya what I find absolutely fascinating is the atom.

The other is the subconscious mind. If you have never read up on the subconscious, please do so as I think you will see a connection that may in fact lead to your soul.

It's really cool stuff! :-)

reply to post by MamaJ


I like Carl Jung's idea of the human collective and archetypes (people seeing their "religious people" in the afterlife - or whatever). Pretty interesting.

First, I want to thank everyone for there contributions here. The amount of opinions being exchanged is staggering, I never thought my thread would garner this level of discussion. That said, there is simply no way for me to work through the previous six pages of commentary, and reply to each and every opinion, while still keeping this thread on topic and relevant. I had intended to, but seeing the sheer amount I know that I cannot.

I want the discussions to continue though, as I find many of them to be very interesting.

So, I'm just going to reiterate some things here, and after having done that, I'll do my best to jump in with the discussions currently underway and carry on from there.

My original post did not discuss any type of religious stance. So, for those of you discussing God, or religion, while I enjoy the commentary, it doesn't really apply here. I have my own religious beliefs concerning whether or not there is a Creator, and if so who's message most closely resembles His or Her desires. This thread is not about that though, by all means, believe in God and Christ, or the God and Goddess if that's more to your liking. Religion is a personal thing, and will only ever apply to you yourself. I can't touch that, because if I were to say any specific religion is wrong, they would all be wrong; because every religion in existence has the exact same amount of undeniable evidence for it's validity: none.

What I was attacking, was philosophies. Specifically, ones which I thought were unfounded, full of fluff and woo, and did not stand up beyond an individuals desire for them to be real. Which, judging by the amount of personal "I believe..." rebuttals that I got, I feel safe in saying is the truth.

There are too many disharmonious elements in the world alone, and the world is insignificant compared to the Universe, for the philosophy of All is Love to be valid. Whether you believe in love or not, is irrelevant. Love is a chemical reaction, and it causes as much pain and death as it does bliss and joy. The fact that senseless crimes, hate-induced murders, jealous rages, starving children, oppression, and racism exist means that love and hate share equal weight in the world. One does not supersede the other.

At the same time, it is mostly fringe science, often driven by a "conclusion before the hypothesis" approach, that seems to support the idea of a Universal Consciousness, of which we are all momentary emanations. Textbook science, used to treat disease, repair damaged tissue, and to function the things we use every day, suggests that it is not a Universal Consciousness, but a finite, localized consciousness which we possess. Our overlapping archetypes come not from a Group Mind, but from the industrialization and advancement of cultures. It is our environments, which we master, which cause us to share in experiences; not the fact that every human is born with 12 specific archetypes, etc.

At the same time, Jung's theories are no longer held in as high a regard as they once were. Neither is Joseph Campbell's "mono-myth," because both of these over-simply the depth and complexity of ancient man, ancient myth, human evolution, and the ways in which memory and thought operate. While we can certainly benefit from a study of archetypes, I do not think that there is a Collective Unconscious from which we're all drawing them. Quite the opposite, continents and cultures develop cultural consciousness, which we all take from as we grow.

This being why West Asia had the archetypes of the Bull King, the Storm Lord, the Dying and Rising God, the Trickster who was also the Divine Intelligence, and the Queen of Heaven... yet Great Britain and the Celts did not have these same exact archetypes. Or why the Norse combined the Storm Lord, Divine Intelligence, and Dying and Rising God into one figure (Odin) while putting the Trickster into his own form (via Loki). The deeper into ancient myth, religion, and spirituality one delves, the more you begin to see that world-wide archetypes, collective consciousnesses, and "mono-myths" do not add up one-hundred percent of the time.

I do still enjoy archetypes, myths, and ancient religions though. And will most likely jump into the conversation concerning them if it continues on the thread.

Anyway, again, thank-you everyone for the contributions and discussions. I should have more time now to devote to continuing this thread as I originally planned.

~ Wandering Scribe

Originally posted by Theophorus
reply to post by Wandering Scribe

 

When a proponent of the theory of unity talks to me about the breakdown of matter, and how energy can neither be destroyed nor created, merely transformed, I typically ask them how much they know of neuroscience, and the localization of consciousness, because the more you know of these two elements, the more it becomes clear that consciousness is a product of the brain, and therefore restricted to only this life, lived and perceived by this body; and nothing more.

humm, lets take a closer look at these two elements consciousness and science (any type of science). simply put, Science is the study of matter.The brain is matter. matter can not produce anything on its own. an atom can not split itself. Consciousness has nothing to do with science, and science can not study it, as it is not a material thing. now think about this; If we are continuously producing things which have no attribute of matter, wouldnt it be reasonable to conclude that there is in us some element which is not matter to produce them? this element is not held in this time/space continuum and is not restricted to or by anything.

Again any thoughts ? BTW, thank you for your generic reply to us all.

reply to post by Theophorus


Thanks for the reply, Theophorus.

My understanding of consciousness, and thought, is that it is the product of chemical and electric reactions from synapses firing in the brain. That memory, thought, and our interpretation of sensory stimuli is all based on the way our synapses fire, and the connections that various portions of our brain make.

You say that matter cannot make things, but I disagree. All life, eventually, breaks down into various forms of matter. Sentience, self-awareness, consciousness... they all eventually break down into chemicals and electronic stimuli and signals occurring. While the visual, or auditory response we perceive may not be matter on it's own, it does not means the process for getting there isn't, or wasn't.

Take hallucinations as an example. It doesn't even have to be drug-related, since that's against the TC. But how about fever-dream hallucinations, or delirium from dehydration? What people witness during these events is not something made of matter and physical reality, but is instead a projection of their brain's analysis of stimuli. They way the brain perceives the matter it is witnessing.

Now, I do still believe that there can be a metaphysical, or supernatural element to people. I've never doubted that science cannot touch on every realm for which something could be said to exist. What I don't believe is that this immaterial "existence" connects us all to one another. Do I believe in Spirit? Yes. But I do not believe we are all one Spirit. I believe that Spirit comes about because of life, and that it, like consciousness, is individual and localized.

Whatever the mechanism for Spirit, perhaps science will one day discover, if not I do not worry. I believe in it all the same. But I believe our understanding of the mind, of cultural evolution, of the way our brains analyze and correlate data is sophisticated enough where we can rule out "Hive Minds" and the "Collective Unconscious." We are all uniquely individualized, built upon the DNA and genes of our lineage, with a few brand new mutations added in.

To me that just makes more sense.

~ Wandering Scribe

reply to post by MamaJ


I do appreciate your response, at present I am busy with something this week.....all concerned will be hearing more from me after this friday.