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The absurdity of bailouts and our welfare program

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posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 11:55 AM
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reply to post by Americanist
 


That structure looks right but its got the wrong label at the bottom. That is definitely no a capitalist system. The basic principles of capitalism is private property and freedom to engage in voluntary exchanges. The structure your cartoon portrays has monarchs at the top spreading their system of belief with priest and religious figures (which has really been replaced by public schools), and the army then to enforce the system and keep the people in check. That is a system of statism that you describe and has absolutely no relationship to capitalism.




posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by crankySamurai
reply to post by Americanist
 


That structure looks right but its got the wrong label at the bottom. That is definitely no a capitalist system. The basic principles of capitalism is private property and freedom to engage in voluntary exchanges. The structure your cartoon portrays has monarchs at the top spreading their system of belief with priest and religious figures (which has really been replaced by public schools), and the army then to enforce the system and keep the people in check. That is a system of statism that you describe and has absolutely no relationship to capitalism.


These systems are all the same... Numbers don't lie. Save the energy for resolve instead of denial.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 12:25 PM
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reply to post by NorthernThird
 


While that is truth, each corrupted political party complements each others accomplishments, Obama may not have started the bailouts and neither of the previews party policies, but he had not problem perpetuating them

The bailouts are ongoing, and some of them are "unlimited".

CNNMoney.com's bailout tracker
The government is engaged in a far-reaching - and expensive - effort to rescue the economy. Here's how you can keep tabs on the bailouts.


money.cnn.com...

The biggest pay off to the AIG, has not pay a penny yet to the tax payers.

www.globalresearch.ca...

Is AIG Getting Yet More Presents from the Treasury, Meaning the Chump Taxpayer?

Read more at www.nakedcapitalism.com...



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 12:27 PM
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Bailing out the Banks with Tax Payers money is also a form of Welfare for the rich



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 01:17 PM
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reply to post by Americanist
 


I'm not sure what numbers your talking about but all systems are definitely not the same. A centrally planned economy distributing a fiat money system is not the same system as people one in where people are free to interact as they please.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 01:46 PM
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Originally posted by libertytoall

If you estimate 10 million illegal immigrants(and there are more) in the US each receiving an average of $1,500 per month in welfare subsidies it equates to 180 billion dollars per year. How can any sane person think this is acceptable?



Nobody is saying it's acceptable because it simply isn't true. You just pulled those statistics out of nowhere.




When PolitiFact researched the numbers, though, we found the claim ridiculously false and rated it Pants on Fire. About 46.4 million people receive food stamps, so 43 percent of that number would be just under 20 million. That significantly exceeds estimates for how many illegal immigrants are in the country. The Pew Hispanic Center put the number at 11.2 million in 2010.

On top of that, most social welfare programs bar illegal immigrants from receiving benefits and require proof of immigration status. That includes food stamps, as well as cash welfare assistance, Medicaid, and even the new health care law.


Politifact



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:05 PM
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Originally posted by crankySamurai
reply to post by Americanist
 


That structure looks right but its got the wrong label at the bottom. That is definitely no a capitalist system. The basic principles of capitalism is private property and freedom to engage in voluntary exchanges. The structure your cartoon portrays has monarchs at the top spreading their system of belief with priest and religious figures (which has really been replaced by public schools), and the army then to enforce the system and keep the people in check. That is a system of statism that you describe and has absolutely no relationship to capitalism.


What you are missing is that there is a difference between
Ideology and the practice of that ideology. Every single
Transaction I engaged in today was market based and capitalistic.

Maybe the real question is examining the outcome we have
Reached. In a capitalist competition it is only natural that some
Win and find inroads into every aspect of society, especially government.

I do not think America Should abandone capitalism, but to
Ignore the fact that the captains of industry also own and wield
The government is ignoring the truth.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by libertytoall
I'll give you that but it's also socialism. Government Motors anyone? It's socialism for the wealthy when they get corporate welfare handouts. Ever heard of "privatizing profits and socializing losses"?
edit on 3-9-2012 by libertytoall because: (no reason given)


Yes...BUT the everyday citizen needs a car to drive. If we don't make cars, we have to drive imports. Thereby supporting a foreign country's economy with our own.

On the other hand, you have companies such as Lockheed Martin who was the #1 contractor for the US Government in the last few years...60% of the corporate revenue came from defense contracts. They even got a tax refund due to the loopholes available for corporate income tax filers. Individual income tax is much higher than corporate and evidently it is even lower for defense contractors...not officially, but you get what I'm saying.

The top ten companies contracted by the US Government are defense related. They do not need bailouts. They rarely lay off their employees. In fact, according to The Washington Post


On May 12, 2006, The Washington Post reported that when Robert Stevens took control of Lockheed Martin in 2004, he faced the dilemma that within 10 years 100,000 of the about 130,000 Lockheed Martin employees – more than three-quarters – would be retiring.[18]


That means that people have worked a whole lifetime for Lockheed Martin since we know companies rarely hire people within 10-15 years of retirement age. These people are lucky in that they might actually have pensions and have job security...I'm not begrudging them anything...too bad the workers at places like GM cannot make the same claims or enjoy the same benefits of employment...

When congress is making decisions on cutting defense budget or pulling out of Afghanistan and those kinds of things...guess who is right there in the thick of it? The fat cat defense contractor CEO's that are in charge of keeping their stockholders happy and in the black.

There was an article I read I think at Huffington Post that was to the effect that when there were some defense cuts proposed, all the defense contractors were loudly protesting and even said that if necessary, taxes should be raised so that they did not lose their contracts or be 'forced' to lay off any employees.
I forgot to bookmark that, or thought I had but didn't...haven't found it again yet.
Here is some info on lobbying from Wiki.

There have been 740 layoffs, evidently, from this article at The Indian Express.

Also, from that same Wikipedia page:


On November 18, 2010, Lockheed Martin announced that it would be closing its Eagan, MN location by 2013 in order to drive down costs and optimize capacity at their locations nationwide.[20]


That was a corporate decision that resulted in a lot of job losses, I'm sure.

Double standards, for sure.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:26 PM
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Originally posted by thepresident
reply to post by Americanist
 


I do not think America Should abandone capitalism, but to
Ignore the fact that the captains of industry also own and wield
The government is ignoring the truth.




That is precisely why the free market only works when it is actually free. Meaning that government does not have influence on it. The answer to our problems is not less freedom but more freedom. If government does not have influence on the market such as regulations and control of the money supply then there is no influence for the wealthy to buy. A government controlled market is not a capitalist system. In a free market government does not have any influence at all.
edit on 3-9-2012 by crankySamurai because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-9-2012 by crankySamurai because: formatting



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by freemarketsocialist
 





You do not seem to understand what socialism is. You sound McCarthyist.


People who advocate socialism always seem to make some version of this remark to anyone opposed to socialist ideals. I'm sorry but just because you say they don't seem to understand doesn't make it so. If you want a healthy debate then tell us why you think socialism is a workable solution.

Redistribution of wealth is one of the single biggest descriptions of socialism. Would you care to dispute that?
edit on 3-9-2012 by ThirdEyeofHorus because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:53 PM
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Originally posted by artistpoet
Bailing out the Banks with Tax Payers money is also a form of Welfare for the rich


Yes, it was a total scam, and the reason it happened was because banks have been forced by govt to make loans to people the govt wanted to help out. The reason govt did that is that they have socialistic aims. It happened under Clinton.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:55 PM
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Welfare should be abolished fully.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:58 PM
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reply to post by NorthernThird
 


Who had control of congress? They exert far more control than the president. You left that out and I noticed. Did you do that on purpose?



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 02:59 PM
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Originally posted by Iron7
Welfare should be abolished fully.


Then so too such Taxes
Hell abolish everything



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by MsAphrodite
 


AIPAC and Goldman Sachs had control over congress.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by MsAphrodite
 


AIPAC and Goldman Sachs had control over congress.



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 03:07 PM
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reply to post by Iron7
 


So you are saying that the Democrats are beholden to these?



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 03:25 PM
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Again, we have a statement turned partisan because some idiots still believe one party is "the good guys" and the other party is "the bad guys". Those that tout this crap make me laugh uncontrollably...here's a clue...erm...you are clueless. Both parties are bad...both parties are filled with corrupt "criminals"!

Not a freaking dime was spent without bi-partisan support...no "one party" steam rolled this bullsh!t through so drop the ignorant dribble "who was in control of congress".

Big business was in control of congress...through campaign donations and "fringe benefits", YOUR Congressmen gave YOUR money to failing corporations in return for favors. Don't like the truth? Then vote for something different for a change...Gonna stick with the elephant or the donkey? The you get the reaming in the backdoor you apparently are asking for.




If you continue to support the "two party" system...you continue to support entrenched corruption....clean house...vote out all incumbents and vote in new blood...it IS the only way...or...sit there and be a sheep and wait for your "heroes" to save you...yeah...let me know when they arrive.
edit on 3-9-2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-9-2012 by Jeremiah65 because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 03:37 PM
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Originally posted by crankySamurai

Originally posted by thepresident
reply to post by Americanist
 


I do not think America Should abandone capitalism, but to
Ignore the fact that the captains of industry also own and wield
The government is ignoring the truth.




That is precisely why the free market only works when it is actually free. Meaning that government does not have influence on it. The answer to our problems is not less freedom but more freedom. If government does not have influence on the market such as regulations and control of the money supply then there is no influence for the wealthy to buy. A government controlled market is not a capitalist system. In a free market government does not have any influence at all.
edit on 3-9-2012 by crankySamurai because: (no reason given)

edit on 3-9-2012 by crankySamurai because: formatting


The large markets in America are not free, but I think your
Assumption is that business does NOT actively court
The government. That is a part of capitalism, it is a tool
Just like contracts...

The real problem is when "free marketeers" partially
Deregulate heavily regulated markets to grease the wheels
For the capitalist corporate collectives.

Ignoring this fact is why conservatism is unable to
Install conservatism.
edit on 3-9-2012 by thepresident because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 3 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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reply to post by thepresident
 


I know that a business will actively court the government as long as the government is the one who is setting the rules for the market. True capitalism only occurs when markets are actually free from government influence. This means that there is a separation between government and economics. Government has no roll in economics and only skews the playing field. As long as governments set economics rules you will never have capitalist you will have corporatism, and eventually fascism. Governments have no role in free markets.




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