Are You Offended??? SO WHAT!!!

reply to post by Hefficide


Yes, you reminded us of that twice; but, I for one can't see the connection.

Offense/taking offence and narcisicts.

There are narcisists who don't ever take offense or make offensive statements.

There are humble pie people who take offense a LOT, too much in fact and way too easily. There are humble pie people who take offense if and only if it is in protection of others.

But, the whole connection between your story and narcisists is rather like comparing a boxing match to paranoid schizophrenics. Not related.

hence, I (some we) are replying to what we DO understand clearly.

Now to include the much-argued "steak story here"...

As is custom in the southeastern United States on summer holidays, I've been busy eating a LOT of barbecue for the past 48 hours. Today was no different. I was invited to, and chose to attend, a family barbecue gathering. Quite a few relatives and family friends, all together, breaking bread and sharing time. A good way to spend a beautiful day. Or so it should have been.

As it happens one of the foods prepared for this event was flame grilled steak. I love steak. In fact my ex and I used to refer to it as "playing steak"... an homage to a bit from the TV show Scrubs. As it happens, I like a bit of ketchup on my steak. It's a personal preference that I never really lost from my childhood. I've had a few folks comment on this. But, until today, never really had anybody get angry over my habit...

I got myself a heaping plate of steak, baked beans, potato salad, fresh bread, and broccoli. Hungry, with the smells of fire cooking over flames, I went to sit down, mouth watering, and stomach growling. Upon sitting down, I placed my plate, drink ( sweetened iced tea! ), and napkin down and began preparing to dig in. Part of this process was to grab the ketchup bottle, from off the table, and to put a small amount on my plate. I don't drown my steak in ketchup... I just add a small bit for flavor enhancement.

And that's when it happened. A member of my family ( who will remain anonymous - as one never knows exactly who might be on ATS - even the person I speak of ) went nuts. "How dare you ruin excellent meat by putting freaking KETCHUP on it! Oh my GOD you are the most selfish and inconsiderate SOB I've never met! I cannot believe that you'd pull something like this!!! This is a total slap in the face of everyone here!!!"

I admit that I froze up. This family member and I have no history of bad blood or ill will. We've always gotten along. So, shocked, I sat there, ketchup bottle in hand, mouth agape, eyes wide... unable to reply.

Then, to my horror... a sort of war erupted, right before my eyes. The family literally broke into two factions, right in front of me, and instantly. Words became harsh, then harshness gave way to screaming. All as I sat there, utterly confused and lost.

Something as benign as ketchup could really take a relatively close family and break it in two??

After awhile the war subsided - but it wasn't resolved. For the rest of the afternoon people were predisposed towards having attitudes and the two distinct "camps" pretty much stayed separated.

Who'd have thought ketchup to be so polarizing!

~Heff

reply to post by Trexter Ziam


Narcissism in that we hold onto dogmatic belief, refusing to let it go. The emotional ties we have to our beliefs that make us unable to see opposing opinion or point of view - no matter how much evidence we are shown to contradict our beliefs... how media and culture have caused us all to perceive ourselves as "right". And how those in power might use these things against us - even foster them, knowing that we are easily manipulated by our own egos?

These connections. You don't see them?

If nothing else, this thread seems to be proving my hypothesis...

~Heff

It takes a small and petty mind to get offended by such a small and petty thing.

I would be embarrassed to try and tell someone that the type of condement they choose to use is offensive.They are the one that is going to eat it, not me, so it`s none of my business and nothing for me to get offended by.

It seems to me that anyone who would get offended by what someone else eats probably has deep seated chronic emotional and or mental problems.

Anyone who has the luxury of getting offended by something like that should be thanking god everyday that they have such an easy life to able to get offended over something so petty.

Originally posted by novemberecho
many chefs who go to years and years of culinary school would FLIP if there was ANYTHING else added by the person.
in some places, they won't even put salt and pepper out, because the chef seasoned it PERFECTLY to get it to taste just right. this is with years of schooling.
they would get SO offended if someone "disrespected" the chefs meal like that.

so that is just a different perspective, I guess. but I'm guessing your family member might not be a 5 star culinary pro.

but very cool thread. very nicely put together.


or, is he from Chicago? people in Chicago FLIP if you put ketchup on a hot dog. I have to warn my friends when they come and visit from out of state. some places will refuse to serve you if you want ketchup xD.

I was at exclusive sushi restaurant in Hawaii (250.00 for a meal per person) when witnessed the head sushi chef literally run a customer out of the restaurant, swatting his hind side with a rolled up towel...

Originally posted by Hefficide
reply to post by Trexter Ziam

 

These connections. You don't see them?

Those in your last paragraph are clear ... though, they don't apply to me personally.

Anyway, I meant the connection between the BBQ story and the philosophical bits.

Ya but that's how the world is. Peace war, cold hot, love hate. There's always the polar opposite. Withing groups of people and within ourselves. We can't be one thing all the time. Or it's very very difficult to be. W seem to acheive balance by expressing different sides to ourselves. There's nothing wrong with that. Even Jesus got mad on occation and confronted and disagreed with others. It's perfectly human.

SO HOW DARE YOU!

reply to post by Hefficide


GREAT post man, I live in New-Brunswick Canada and we have a reputation of being really, really nice and social people and I work as a tech support rep and you'd be amazed to see how most people behave... They call in bitching for 20 minutes that it took me 15 minutes too long to answer them... Truth is if the previous customer didn't do the same I would have answered in 5mins... and I know the next one will say the same... its just a vicious cycle...

People nowaday seems to be so childish and expect to have everything for nothing upon command... They DON'T seem to accept ANY responsibility in anything... I have alarming amounts of people that call in screaming the internet isn't working because the browser is popping "fatal error application crashed" or because the PC takes 30 minutes to get in windows they call and scream at me saying the internet is slow.

The funny part is the more I try to explain them how misguided they are and how silly of them it is to talk to me in such ways because their basic understanding of the issue is flawed in so many ways its not even funny, no matter how I put it down to them even with the best analogies they just get 20x more furious...

We live in a world where if you tell someone they are doing something wrong or misunderstanding something they want to eat your face... I'm not sure if its the outcome of our "civilized" world where you literally "afford" to be lazy given the right circumstance you can "order" anything at will as long as you can pay for it or simply pay someone to do your sh!t but it seems to me like people are getting WAYYYYYY to full of themselves nowaday...

I considered moving closer to big cities awhile back but now that I speak to people from all over Canada and the US on a daily basis I can tell you things and I'm just saying this out of personal experience. I wouldn't move to US, Quebec, most part of Ontario...

On the other hand I can vouch if you want to go on vacation to a place where you can just literally "walk in a bar, sit at pretty much any table" and start talking with random people and be welcome life your an old friend come in New-Brunswick in the North-West area or Moncton. You'll be amazed how its easy to make friends here...

I find I am not usually one to stand tooo strongly for or against one view on things, because it seems the more I know, the less I know etc, if that makes sense.

For me, I only usually stand up and fight against bullying, or abusiveness, of any kind, personal attacks etc.

When people are just discussing differing opinions, I like to listen openly to both sides, but when the name calling etc starts, the argument is lost, and becomes invalid, and I usually try to reason a bit, then exit when bullying is the only apparent goal of the opposing party.

I find it sad when you realize the fact that we're standing at the absolute peak in civilization and technological advancement that we've ever known and yet its now more important for people to have the last word in a conversation than actually be right and accurate about what they are arguing about...

I sit here sometimes and I think of the ways of my native american ancestors whom wouldn't marry a woman in the same tribe for fears of starting trouble withing the tribe as they all considered themselves family no matter what and would take any decisions weighting its impact on the upcoming seven generations of fear of harming the next generations... and I really wonder who's the real savages...

We just sit here like morons and dump thousands of gallons of oil in the ocean nearly on a monthly basis and we still look in the eyes of our new born children telling them we love them yet we're f***** their enviroment before they even have a chance to see it and experience it on their own just for money... or paper... depending on how you view it... Am I the only one that sees the irony and hypocrisy in this???

reply to post by _R4t_


I think you hit the nail on the head with that post. Impatience and a need to assign blame, even when the situation does not call for it, is definitely a huge aspect of this cult of self that seems to be permeating society.

We're learning to behave in an infantile manner - even as adults - and all social indicators that would normally keep us from doing so - seem to be eroding. Justifying bad behavior, via overly PC correct thinking, is now the norm!



~Heff

Originally posted by RobertF
Next time just tell the man you don't have what it takes to appreciate a proper steak. Then ask him to blow your mind away with a well ( not as in well done but, a hamburger grilled to perfection) cooked hamburger. He will respect that, and you will have one of the best hamburgers ever made.

edit on 2-9-2012 by RobertF because: (no reason given)

Haha You'd hate me. I have been known to put a steak between bread. Ultimately, it's a futile endeavour as the bread becomes a pseudo sauce of it's own, and I end up eating it like I'm some poor depraved pov from the backwaters of dumpster land, but it has been done.

If you're cooking a bbq, you're not looking for restaurant quality steak, if you ask me. a BBQ is reliant on burnt, smoky meat that screams BBQ at you from the aroma alone.

Apart from that, I get ya. Nothing worse than when I'm cooking than someone intruding, or taking what I planned and turning it into 2 minute noodles ala deranged meat product inspiration.

Perhaps this is why I never cook for anyone else. Oh sure, I will put on toast or something retarded and feed the masses should they impinge. But my cooking is unique. I once found some water in my soup.

reply to post by Hefficide


Since infancy people are freaked on for silly things. Messy room, spill on the rug, skip out of class, saying a naughty word, so it doesnt surprise me much that some people get upset instinctively over nothing rather than patiently trying to understand someone else's perspective

yeah, I agree with the OP.

It's like ATS is one big offensive sticky paper....

what's really the purpose of this place? the people? We put on this mask of being truth seekers... but really... the only difference makers are the offensive and offended....

the rest is all media by-productivism not making one bit a difference in anything but entertaining some shmuck's appetite for something labeled underground news.... which is mostly made up ... twisted... turned around... ate/regurgitated more times then my grandma's fruit cake .... we all come here to post something that has been posted somewhere else in the first place... hence the rule to post your source ... so really...???

we're really here to be offended or try to be offensive... that's all...

We feed on that need for an opposition... if human's can't find a way to resist we'll build it up and let it out in the wrong places... for the wrong purposes... and THAT, my friends, is where ATS and most pud-whacking sites play a role into your daily lives.... feeding off of YOU and YOUR NATURE for the offense/defense theory brought by this thread.

YOU AND I ARE THE HOST FOR A DISGUISED PARASITE!

reply to post by Hefficide


While I agree that there is a tendency for people to get all worked up over trivialities, I think your conclusion is overly simple and not adequately supported by the evidence. There are plenty of narcissistic people around but I don't think that's what polarizes us.

We are social animals, a result of millennia of evolution. Our societies have rules that we are to follow. Some of these rules - like, don't murder your fellow tribe members - make sense. Others - like don't refer to feces by the name "s**t" - make none, except to bind the tribe. It's like how some clubs have certain nonsensical rules, handshakes, hats, etc. to show membership.

Concerning narcissism, the 1980's were much worse than now, yet we weren't as polarized then. The issue (I'm not sure it's actually a problem) isn't narcissism, in my opinion. It's tribalism reacting to diversity.

As the world gets smaller, it's no longer possible for tribes to simply move away from (or slaughter) one another. They're forced to interact, forced to make concessions. At the same time, tribe members want to retain their identities, to *not* make too many concessions.

You cited several forms of polarity - believers vs. skeptics, etc. They're all valid, but they're example of a more fundamental issue, which is "Us vs. Them." It doesn't matter what the Us/Them dichotomy is. Believers/Infidels; Suspenders/Infidels; Family/Infidels; Vegan/Infidels; Jocks/Infidels; Cat lovers/Infidels. Something, anything, to preserve personal and tribal identity. "Them" always equals "Infidels."

It's not a matter of seeking to be offended. It's a matter of using something to create (or emphasize) an Us/Them dichotomy. I missed the Great Steak Episode, but it sounds like someone used a trivial excuse to place someone else in the "Them" category. It's a way to try to shame a person into proper tribal behavior. In the old days the threat of ostracism was terrifying. Ostracism was often a death sentence. Lose your tribe, lose your life. You had no one to protect you. It's how gangs work. And that's how most tribes work - "No 'right thinking' American would..." "Any decent Christian should..." "That's not the way we Smiths do things..." "A 'real' gentleman would never..."

Here's a little secret: There is no "Them." It's all Us. The sooner we figure that out, the better our chances of continuing our species. Clinging to tribal customs is likely to lead to extinction, now that we've grown so skilled at annihilating ourselves.

reply to post by baruch60610


I'd like to step off topic for just a moment and thank you for that very insightful and well written post. And I do agree, that focusing upon our differences ( tribalism ) is one of the greatest dangers we face today as a society and as a species. Well done!

~Heff

This is a topic that has often confused me. Many times in my workplace one person has become "offended" by something, whether it be a picture [of a woman in a bikini] or something said [general comment], and then the 99% of other workers have had to change what they do due to one person making a complaint, due to being "offended".
The bit that confuses me is we are lead to believe that here in Australia [and most Western societies] that we live in a democracy, yet how can this be true when one person can dictact the terms to the remaining 99%. They can word a democracy anyway they want, but a democracy at the end of the day simply means majority rules. The minority get to have a say, but the majority get their way.
And when we have so many workplace rules already in place for things such as harassment,bullying etc, and those cases are dealt with individually as they arise. Yet time and time again, there are changes made to the workplace without any case or paper trail showing how someone was offended, and why is should be changed. Its now gotten to the stage where one person complains, the other workers are told to change.
All this does is create more and more whingers that go and complain whenever they don't get their own way, even though they are the minority, which contradicts what a democracy is supposed to represent.

I onced ask the management at my workplace that when this happens, then couldn't i overturn that decision by then saying that "i'm offended by that person being offended". Their response was a blunt no, to which i replied, "so why does my being offended not count, but if someone complains about being offended first, then action is taken ?"
The message i got from managaement was that its only the first complaint that has action taken, because then they can say that they took action to avoid legal re-percussions, but if someone says they are offended by that person being offended, it gets dismissed into the 'too hard basket' !

So the solution to these people that always complain about being offended, is to tell them that you are offended by them being offended, and then ask them for a logical answer as to why your wishes shouldn't also be respected.....................then sit back and watch the puzzled look on their face as they struggle for that logical answer. It's quite funny actually !

And just like in the South Park episode about not being allowed to draw a picture of Mohammed, how can someone claim to be offended by the drawing of Mohammed if no one has ever been allowed to draw him or depict him in a photo ? What are they comparing the drawings or depictions too if no one has ever been allowed to draw it in the past ?

I personally think the subject of being easily offended is a vaste one that cannot be summed up with one explanation. The reasons are not the same for everyone.

AS I mentioned in another thread though, I am an American ex-Pat and discovered that our culture is especially known for turning out excessively offended people (being "susceptible", as the french say). I found that I was too.

But that changed with time in another culture, so I can't help analyzing myself to see what is at the heart of those changes.

For one, we tend to avoid confrontation and conflict in general- "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all" is still taught to our children, instilling them with the idea that it is wrong to have and share a critical opinion.
The belief that it is wrong or bad sets us up for having a strong negative reaction when someone does it, or even if we do it ourselves!

Plus we have been swimming in an education of positive affirmation, which, without being balanced by the negative enforcement, creates an even bigger sensitivity to criticism and opposition. We may be aware on some deeper levels of the more negative light that could be shown upon ourself, but have become habituated to that being a taboo. Be nice, be positive, at all times... talk and act like everything is beeautifooool, and AWESOME! all the time, and it might become true!

Also, in France, debate is probably the biggest national sport, played out daily by everyone. It is a way of bonding with each other, it is considered an important mind exercise. People will get into animated and loud debates at the dinner table, and two minutes later laughing, putting arms around each other, and pouring each other another glass of wine. I found this confusing at first.
No one even convinced the other, no one "won", they didn't even have to say "agree to disagree"- that was assumed from the beginning- that no agreement was expected. In fact, often people choose to defend a point of view which they do not personally hold, just in order to play opponent to another. It is a fun sport.

This is what made me very aware that often, we get upset, and we search to form teams to support us, simply because we
do not know how to debate.
We get frustrated, we cannot come up with good arguments, and we get emotional and search for supporters to help us counter with collective force instead of individual logic.
It is often simply a lack of practice that means we have not developed good skills in argumentation and critical thought.

Poor behavior, lack of respect, self centered,self serving- I think that fits somewhere in here. Not to mention, "it's not my fault, I know my rights, it's always someone else's fault, and I'm a victim". This seem to be common place in our society.
It is understandable why civilized conversation and debate is becoming rare. Welcome to the age of electronics and instant gratification! Both breed narcissism.

On the lighter side of things, When I was younger my Mother decided to buy steak sauce because my older brother wanted it. As my father was heading out to the grill, he saw it on the dining room table. He picked it up, and put it in the trash-end of story

Great thread Heff. Amazing how one 'small' incident can open our eyes to what is really going on around us.

The concept that we are all being nudged towards a narcissistic society is a great insight into the human condition. This thread has struck a chord with me, I will be looking into this much further.

Thank you for your insight and sparking my quest for knowledge

S&F