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Scientists Proclaim Animal and Human Consciousness the Same

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posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:07 PM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


Why can a dog not do math? Because he cannot speak?

A Cheetah is moving at 120kph running towards a gazelle and can calculate angles in his head. He never runs in a direct footprint of the prey, he cuts them off. Really, in essence, that's calculus. He is calculating speed and angle of trajectory.

We do it in on paper, it does it in it's head, Which one is smarter?

A Bee moves at an unbelievable pace compared to body size. Look at those things buzzing around...Think about all the objects it narrowly misses from moving so quick. Think about flying in a fighter jet at top speed through a forrest of 500' tall trees with a wingspan that almost touches either side.

Sounds hard doesn't it? A Bee does it flawlessly...

Pred...
edit on 31-8-2012 by predator0187 because: (no reason given)




posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:13 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187,

I disagree. If you know anyone with high functioning autism, they sometimes have special abilities. Some can look at columns and columns of numbers and know what they total to, there is no thought involved. We just sometimes know the answer, it is not a conscious thing. Animals know what they are supposed to do, sometimes we breed them to reinforce that knowledge.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:18 PM
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reply to post by TheProphetMark
 


Dear TheProphetMark,



Interesting perspective. And just because scientist claims something doesn't make it true. Maybe one person came up with an idea, and shared it among it's peers and actually managed to convince them that it was true through the power of thought.


Real scientists don't work with the truth, that is unknowable, they work with theories and if they are replicable then they try and decide how to use that knowledge to make better things. I would not have wasted paying these people $1 to investigate whether or not dogs are aware. My dog is even aware of himself, he licks himself frequently.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:22 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187,

I disagree. If you know anyone with high functioning autism, they sometimes have special abilities. Some can look at columns and columns of numbers and know what they total to, there is no thought involved. We just sometimes know the answer, it is not a conscious thing. Animals know what they are supposed to do, sometimes we breed them to reinforce that knowledge.


That is evolution...only the species that are the best adapted to their environment survive.

An autistic savant's brain works differently than ours, they do not simply 'know', they can do calculations in their head much more quicker to us that it seems instant. They are still thinking and having thoughts, they might just be able to process them faster, hence a old 1980's computer versus one of today.

While a Cheetah maybe able to catch a Gazelle moving almost as quick as him, he might not be as overall 'intelligent' as a human.

We might be more well rounded, but there are many animals that can do what humans do only better. They might do it all, but they are specialists.

We could not replicate some of the actions that animals do...

Pred...



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187,

We have no way of measuring levels of consciousness. One is awake or one is not; but, what one thinks about, considers and understands is different. A bee is aware of what it is doing; but, not the meaning behind it, it is responding to stimuli. A dog is aware; but, he doesn't think about math or the meaning of life. My dog does not understand right from wrong, he understands discipline and reward. My dog loves me as well as a dog can, he was bread to have one owner and to bond to that person, it is how all dogs of his type act.

I think what bothers me about what these scientists claim is that they are really trying to imply something else that is not true. People and animals are simply not the same, not genetically and not morally.

As you were growing up in life, did you know the meaning behind the things you did before you were taught? Let's say mom said to clean your room, did you know the meaning behind why you were even cleaning it before you learned? Before you were taught math, did you think about it? Let alone even know about it? When you were just a little kid, before you knew what life and death were, did you even think of those things? Or were you just thinking about getting home from school to play with your toys or watch some TV? What is right or wrong? What you were taught to be wrong, might be right to another person taught differently.

I think in the end, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a small minded human being thinking that you have the definite answer to something you can't even explain properly.
edit on 31-8-2012 by FidelityMusic because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:29 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187



An autistic savant's brain works differently than ours, they do not simply 'know', they can do calculations in their head much more quicker to us that it seems instant. They are still thinking and having thoughts, they might just be able to process them faster, hence a old 1980's computer versus one of today.


They no longer call us savant's by the way. It is now referred to as Asperger's and you are incorrect about how our brains work. Yes, we are quite capable of thinking and adding; but, some of us also just know certain things. The little four year old that can play the piano as well as the great master, that is just a gift, it is not an effort. You don't need to think about what you in your body know is the answer, they just see it, that does not mean that we cannot think, sometimes it isn't necessary.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:35 PM
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reply to post by FidelityMusic
 


Dear FidelityMusic



As you were growing up in life, did you know the meaning behind the things you did before you were taught? Let's say mom said to clean your room, did you know the meaning behind why you were even cleaning it before you learned? Before you were taught math, did you think about it? Let alone even know about it? When you were just a little kid, before you knew what life and death were, did you even think of those things? Or were you just thinking about getting home from school to play with your toys or watch some TV? What is right or wrong? What you were taught to be wrong, might be right to another person taught differently. I think in the end, you don't know what you're talking about. You're a small minded human being thinking that you have the definite answer to something you can't even explain properly.


And now we are presented with the real agenda as predicted. LOL. If you have a point to make, make it and we can respond to it. Tell us what you believe, thrill us with your intellect. Prove that animals think like humans, I will wait; but, this claim, that they are aware of the world adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. It is merely another ploy to convince us that we don't matter and are no more than animals. Maybe you are not; but, I am.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187

They no longer call us savant's by the way. It is now referred to as Asperger's and you are incorrect about how our brains work. Yes, we are quite capable of thinking and adding; but, some of us also just know certain things. The little four year old that can play the piano as well as the great master, that is just a gift, it is not an effort. You don't need to think about what you in your body know is the answer, they just see it, that does not mean that we cannot think, sometimes it isn't necessary.


While I am sure you know plenty more than me on this subject, to tell me that I am incorrect on how our brains work is quite a bold statement.

We have yet to really figure out how an average brain works let alone one with a supposed "disorder".

To claim what you have, you would be insinuating that we have knowledge of all brains, which is not the case.

A four year old can play like a grandmaster, yes, but she still thinks while she does it. While it may not be a normal thought process, there is still brain activity, which in essence is a thought...

Pred...
edit on 31-8-2012 by predator0187 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by predator0187
reply to post by AQuestion
 


Why can a dog not do math? Because he cannot speak?

A Cheetah is moving at 120kph running towards a gazelle and can calculate angles in his head. He never runs in a direct footprint of the prey, he cuts them off. Really, in essence, that's calculus. He is calculating speed and angle of trajectory.

We do it in on paper, it does in it's head, Which one is smarter?

A Bee moves at an unbelievable pace compared to body size. Look at those things buzzing around...Think about all the objects it narrowly misses from moving so quick. Think about flying in a fighter jet at top speed through a forrest of 500' tall trees with a wingspan that almost touches either side.

Sounds hard doesn't it? A Bee does it flawlessly...

Pred...


It's not the automatic functions in the brain that defines the intelligence of a creature.

It's the time it takes to adapt to a situation or an environment. Adaptability requires the ability to perform functions that one is not used to or might even at that particular point in time be completely incapable of performing.

You see, what you're not recognizing is that if animals or insects were actually smarter than humans then why is it that we have zoos?

You see, animals ONLY have their programmed functions with which they work. Humans, on the other hand, when we allow ourselves to function at our full capacity, have the ability to do so -- much -- more. And yet, at the same time, humans are also different than animals because of the other side of the coin. Humans also have the ability to choose to not use their potential and to be completely unthinking, untrained, and slow, and lazy and yet still survive - especially due to the love of other human beings. Where are these animals that just choose to be unthinking, untrained, slow, lazy, and foolish? If there ever were any, they are probably dead. If they aren't dead, they are probably owned by one of your lazy humans.

No one debates that animals have traits that are above our traits - but they're very specific traits which humans can not only work to achieve with their physical bodies, but also humans can mimic and surpass greatly with technology (as much as I sort of despise our ability to create technology and yet allow ourselves to become useless and foolish on account of said technology because we are definitely most undeserving).

How can one who pretends to be so logical and thinking be so completely ignorant to the information in the world external to him/her self? The truth abounds all around you and yet you would rather believe in the numbers? Numbers are abstract representations of reality at best - and there are as many different number systems as there are numbers. The possibilities are endless regarding numbers. So then why do you mathematicians so quickly reveal your ignorance as to the fact that there is nothing magical about the decimal number system? Yes, this correlates to this topic because it goes to the root of the problem with peoples' extremely misguided view of nature. Nature is not based on a number system. Nature is comprised of a limitless number of number systems and even more than that, "mathematically" speaking.

So if you want to get into how automatic functions determine the intelligence of creature, then why don't you count all the different processes that are used when a cat catches its target and compare those same principles to the hunter that shoots the cat in between its eyes in its mid-leap towards its prey. And imagine if you will how many processes are possible here - because there are hunters who would be wise enough to know which direction and how quickly and how far that cat's prey would run - and he would know, before he lifted his rifle, where the heart of the cat's prey would be. And this all in a matter of much less than a second when he lifts his rifle, shoots the cat between the eyes, rotates slightly at his hips and bends his knees ever so slightly to account for the change in velocity of the cat's prey, aiming slightly downward from the original target, and nabbing that cat's prey right in the side of the skull - we'll call it a deer.

Are most hunters that good? no. Are there ones capable of such an act and more? Most definitely.

Let's see a cheetah learn how to fire a rifle - a process that is NOT genetically built into a human, but is a trained process. Let's see any animal do that, for that matter.

And shooting a rifle is one of the least of the intelligent processes a human can possess.

Better yet, let's see a cheetah open up a thread on Above Top Secret and compare the intelligence of animals to humans. That would be rich!

Don't people like you ever get sick of demeaning your brothers and sisters in the flesh? I mean people can be so disgusting and stupid, but the potential is there.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by TarzanBeta
 


I am not demeaning anyone. I think we are on par with animals, that is no insult.

What makes us better? The fact that we destroy our environment and more than likely will lead to our own extinction? To me that's dumb.

The biggest difference between animals and humans is we have the ability to change our environment to how we see fit. Rather than us adapting we change it. That is intelligence, yes, if done the proper sustainable way...

Just because we have not studied animals in depth does not mean they do not have the same teachability as we do.

Really, we have chimps learning to speak and gorillas doing sign language. The possibility is there.

And why do we compare all animals to ourselves? What makes us so good? Why does everything in the world have to be our way? That to me is the exact opposite of intelligence.

No human can "speak" gorilla or chimpanzee, so thus far the animals have surpassed us...

Zoos are a moot point, the animals do not willingly get into cages they are forced and drugged to live in a jail we call a zoo.

Pred...



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:51 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187,



While I am sure you know plenty more than me on this subject, to tell me that I am incorrect on how our brains work is quite a bold statement. We have yet to really figure out how an average brain works let alone one with a supposed "disorder". To claim what you have, you would be insinuating that we have knowledge of all brains, which is not the case. A four year old can play like a grandmaster, yes, but she still thinks while she does it. While it may not be a normal thought process, there is still brain activity, which in essence is a thought...


It is far from a disorder and is no longer called such. The reason they used to use the term "idiot savant" will explain that they were amazed that these kids just knew things, they were not things they learned. You cannot duplicate it with all of the computers in the world. You say that the four year old is still thinking while playing the piano, yes; but, not about playing the piano. There is a difference. The person with a photographic memory, though not autistic, just remembers, they don't have to think about it much, just choose what to remember. The challenge is when people ask you how you knew, the best you can do is say that you just knew. Then you try and explain how they might have gotten to the same answer; but, it is not how we get to our answers.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 11:00 PM
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Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187,

It is far from a disorder and is no longer called such. The reason they used to use the term "idiot savant" will explain that they were amazed that these kids just knew things, they were not things they learned. You cannot duplicate it with all of the computers in the world. You say that the four year old is still thinking while playing the piano, yes; but, not about playing the piano. There is a difference. The person with a photographic memory, though not autistic, just remembers, they don't have to think about it much, just choose what to remember. The challenge is when people ask you how you knew, the best you can do is say that you just knew. Then you try and explain how they might have gotten to the same answer; but, it is not how we get to our answers.


Computers are programmed by humans, and thus are limited by our intelligence. Once we have a self aware Intelligent computer that is when we will see real progress in computing...

Maybe, a savant has the ability to tap into the universal consciousness and just understand things at a level a normal human cannot. I am not arguing that savants are not amazing and cannot do amazing things, I am arguing that animals are as intelligent as humans...

We have veered off the top is a bit. Not that I am not enjoying this conversation.

If this is your point, and savants "just know" and do not think, they would be more like animals as animals "just know" how to do the amazing things they do

Pred..



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 11:13 PM
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reply to post by predator0187
 


Dear predator0187,



Maybe, a savant has the ability to tap into the universal consciousness and just understand things at a level a normal human cannot. I am not arguing that savants are not amazing and cannot do amazing things, I am arguing that animals are as intelligent as humans... We have veered off the top is a bit. Not that I am not enjoying this conversation. If this is your point, and savants "just know" and do not think, they would be more like animals as animals "just know" how to do the amazing things they do


Go back to my original response, I knew what the true intent of this thread was and the proof the scientist had does nothing to prove the point that was truly intended. You say that you are arguing that animals are as intelligent as humans, give us proof that they are "AS" intelligent.

You compare people with Asperger's to animals and less than human, we get insulted a lot but that shows a bit of cruelty there. I will assume it was not intended. It is a question of what we know and what do not know that defines ourselves and our species. If the only thing you knew was that you breathed, you would be aware; but, not worthy of being said to have human level of intelligence. People with Asperger's have a genetic trade off, a little variety was lost in exchange for the correct answer to something. We are not like cats or dogs because of it. Science says that normal people can see 40,000 different emotions in facial expressions, they claim that people with Asperger's only see 10,000. I couldn't tell you what I don't see. Maybe as is claimed for blindness, if you have one sense taken away, your other senses often benefit.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 11:18 PM
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reply to post by AQuestion
 


I said in general people and animals have the same consciousness.

Never once did I say anything comparing a "disorder" (which I don't believe it is) to animals.

This thread is about consciousness, not really about intelligence.

I ask you two questions...

What is consciousness? What is intelligence?

Pred...



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 11:20 PM
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Please direct your comments to this ongoing Thread

Animals Are As With-it as Humans (Animals Are Conscious)



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