The Infinite Spongy Universe and my ATS disclaimer

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

We can model an electron's location as a wavefunction of probability. We can model the electron itself as a point of energy existing somewhere within that wavefunction. Beyond that, your guess is as good as anyone else's.

ok,,, You said we observe electrons on a regular basis,,, so when we observe them,, what do they appear as?

im guessing they appear as a measurable force of energy,,,

so we have no clue what it actually is,,, what its made of,,, how it exists,,

reply to post by ImaFungi


Yep...that's about right.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by CLPrime

 

could it be possible that the "electron" does not exist.,,. however there is an electric field surrounding an atom,, produced by the nucleus? ( or is this how it is already viewed?)

also are protons and neutrons considered wave functions or particles (or are those the same thing)?

then the quarks that make up protons and neutrons,,, since we can with some accuracy know where an atom is located,, so we can with some accuracy know where the proton and neutron is located.,,. but then the quarks which make the proton and neutron up, are wave functions? , what does that mean,, it is nothing material or physical,,, a tiny oscillation of micro space, is what a quark is?

Hi ImaFungi,

Let me take you on a little journey into my model again. We have done the macro cruise; do you recall the infinities I invoke? Time, space, and wave energy in a potentially infinite foundational medium. The galaxies that we observe in our Hubble view are all within our own big bang arena, and there are a potentially infinite number of active arenas across the infinite landscape of the greater universe. Along with that macro view I invoke the idea that there are invariant natural laws that govern the perpetual arena process under the same physics at all times and places. The arena process is characterized by arena waves.

Even though our Hubble view extends beyond our ability to observe, it is still a huge wave of energy that has matured into an expanding galaxy filled arena where the galaxies are essentially all moving away from each other at an accelerating rate, but all within the physical arena space which is a tiny expanding spherical wave within the greater universe.

I want to know if you can envision such a wave? And then envision two of them expanding toward each other. When they touch there is a point of intersection, and as they overlap, there is a lens shaped patch of space that contains the expanding wave crest of both arenas, and so the density in the overlap space increases to equal the combination of the two converging wave crests. Can you envision such an overlap, where the space in the overlap is filled with galaxies from both arenas?

It is those converging galaxies that are captured in the swirling rendezvous that results in the formation of a new big crunch at the center of gravity of the overlap space, and each big crunch collapses/bangs to start a new arena "spawned" by the overlap of the "parent arenas". That picture takes place all across the landscape of the greater universe.

Now drop down to the infinitesimal level and think of the same pattern of wave intersection and overlap at the quantum level. At this level, the converging waves produce a high density spot that I call a quantum of energy.

If you can, compare the high density spot at the quantum level to the big crunch at the arena level. Can you see the similarity?

If so, now we can take the quantum journey that my model invokes? Are you with me?

reply to post by CLPrime


"When it comes to matter particles (fermions), that's a hard question to answer. In fact, it's hard enough with bosons."

is it kind of like,, the tiniest particles,,,, just in the fact that they exist,, and by definition if they exist they are taking up space,,, they are also moving through/with space... and moving relative to other particles.,.,,. is that what energy is? the tiniest "something" taking up and moving through space,, is energy,,, this built up with more massive objects and gravity,, changes the game and allows for weird effects like molecules,, and chemistry.,.,. massive bodies like the earth is like a slow motion station,, for particles to interact in more complex and novel manners?

but then i think,,, there is no difference between the tiniest particles and the space they move through/with.,,.,. because you dont think absolute nothing fundamentally and naturally exists, so that must mean the existence of all something and all distance/space,,,, is at the smallest and every level and scale, composed of tiny particles or parts.,,.,. so then the tiniest particles do not take up space,,, because there is no such thing as space,,, there is only energy/particles,..,.,


when it "comes down to it",,.,. does the "energy" we receive from consuming food,,come from the quantum level?

reply to post by CLPrime


"It's not the point of contact, it's the entire system of 3 quarks that forms a proton or neutron. But, yes, they do sort of "lock" together...with gluons. "

this is a silly analogy but something i thought of,.,.,.,.,.

we are studying a person.,.,.,,. this person is a whole,, one thing ( of course it also depends on the external system and forces for its existence)

we call this person proton,.,.,.,.,.

then we collide this person into a wall,.,.,. and we see bones and veins fly out.,,..,.,

so this one singular person ( proton) is made of multiple squiggly things like veins etc. ,.,..,.,

reminded me of proton made of the quarks,.,.,.,.

is a singular person an illusion? is a person just the sum of their parts?

what exists first quarks or protons? did they come into existence at the same time? do they depend entirely on each other for each other to exist?

reply to post by BogieSmiles


"Let me take you on a little journey into my model again. We have done the macro cruise; do you recall the infinities I invoke? Time, space, and wave energy in a potentially infinite foundational medium. The galaxies that we observe in our Hubble view are all within our own big bang arena, and there are a potentially infinite number of active arenas across the infinite landscape of the greater universe."

how can our universe be spatially and temporally "infinite" ,,, if there are boundaries to its time and space ( other universes surrounding ours)?

reply to post by BogieSmiles


"Even though our Hubble view extends beyond our ability to observe, it is still a huge wave of energy that has matured into an expanding galaxy filled arena where the galaxies are essentially all moving away from each other at an accelerating rate, but all within the physical arena space which is a tiny expanding spherical wave within the greater universe.

I want to know if you can envision such a wave? And then envision two of them expanding toward each other. When they touch there is a point of intersection, and as they overlap, there is a lens shaped patch of space that contains the expanding wave crest of both arenas, and so the density in the overlap space increases to equal the combination of the two converging wave crests. Can you envision such an overlap, where the space in the overlap is filled with galaxies from both arenas? "

i think i can envision it,,, does it look something like a 3-d venn diagram?

reply to post by BogieSmiles


"It is those converging galaxies that are captured in the swirling rendezvous that results in the formation of a new big crunch at the center of gravity of the overlap space, and each big crunch collapses/bangs to start a new arena "spawned" by the overlap of the "parent arenas". That picture takes place all across the landscape of the greater universe.

Now drop down to the infinitesimal level and think of the same pattern of wave intersection and overlap at the quantum level. At this level, the converging waves produce a high density spot that I call a quantum of energy.

If you can, compare the high density spot at the quantum level to the big crunch at the arena level. Can you see the similarity?

If so, now we can take the quantum journey that my model invokes? Are you with me? "


yes,, im with ya,,,, and i think i get it,.,.,.,,

I just have trouble comprehending what the energy and components are made of..,.,.,

across the board,, did the infinitesimally small quanta,, come into existence/form ,,,, first? ( before macro universes)? or it is the same thing they happened at the same time?

is all that exists the quantum,,, and then macro universes are just temporal dimension projected observations of quantum interactions?

is the quantum the true nature of reality,, always,, it can never be anything else,,,, no force or power can change or corrupt the entirety of the fundamental quantum nature and existence of reality? quantum particles and planck length space exists in every universe that exists and can? in your model do you say what and how other universes can exist? what their tiniest constituents can be,, and if those tiniest constituents were formed first,, always were,, or were they or could they ever be the result of larger macro quantities of "energy", broken down into infinitesimal pieces,,,,


last night I was thinking of multi universes,,,, thinking of our universe as a cell in a leaf,,, surrounded by other cells,..,,. then i was trying to think how would that middle cell suspect it "got there",.,..,

Originally posted by ImaFungi

when it "comes down to it",,.,. does the "energy" we receive from consuming food,,come from the quantum level?

Not directly...the "energy" received from food is in the form of biochemical processes (cellular respiration involving compounds like carbohydrates and proteins). This isn't the same as bosonic energy.

is a singular person an illusion? is a person just the sum of their parts?

I think the answer to that should be obvious.

what exists first quarks or protons? did they come into existence at the same time? do they depend entirely on each other for each other to exist?

Quarks exist first. How could a proton exist without quarks? How could 3 quarks immediately appear in the form of a proton? Quarks form, and then they interact via gluons to form protons (and neutrons).

reply to post by CLPrime


"Quarks exist first. How could a proton exist without quarks? How could 3 quarks immediately appear in the form of a proton?"

ok

"Quarks form, and then they interact via gluons to form protons (and neutrons)."

how do quarks form? and what causes exactly 3 to become rallied together to form a proton? and when they do interact to form a proton, then are they bound as a proton "forever" until they are attracted to be used to form an atom?

reply to post by ImaFungi


You and I have gone over this before.

Originally posted by ImaFungi
yes,, im with ya,,,, and i think i get it,.,.,.,, 

I just have trouble comprehending what the energy and components are made of..,.,., 

All there is is energy waves traversing the foundational medium (aether, if you like). Matter is composed of wave energy in quantum increments.

High density spot vs big crunch: both exist as the wave energy crests converge at the respective levels of order, i.e. the quantum level and the arena level.

Let's compare the composition of the big crunch before it collapses/bangs with the high density spot. First, the word quantum or the plural, quanta, refers to the high density spots which are each a quantum of energy in my model. But quantum also can be any discrete amount with a specific value within my model. For example, it is OK to call a big crunch a quantum of energy at the arena level. As such, when a big crunch collapses/bangs into expansion it consists of an arena quantum of wave energy expanding (traversing) the foundational medium.

To distinguish between the vastly different sized quanta, I refer to the micro level quantum as a quantum, and the macro level quantum as an arena quantum, or simply an arena. So at the micro level matter is composed of wave energy in quantum increments (high density spots), and at the macro level the arena landscape is composed of wave energy in arena quantum increments.

across the board,, did the infinitesimally small quanta,, come into existence/form ,,,, first?  ( before macro universes)?  or it is the same thing they happened at the same time? 

Remember when you and I discussed the fact that there was no beginning? Any point in time in the past, the entire universe existed and looked the same as it does now on a grand scale. And the composition of any identifiable object, whether it be a big crunch, and expanding arena, or a particle or a high density spot within a particle, everything in the universe is made of wave eneregy; particles that are composed of energy in quantum increments and the wave energy traversing the foundational medium that sustains them.

is all that exists the quantum,,, and then macro universes are just temporal dimension projected observations of quantum interactions?

No, in my model all that exists is the foundational medium, waves traversing that medium (waves carry energy), particles that are composed of quantum waves of energy, objects made of particles, radiation in the form of photons which are particles composed of quanta, and unquantized wave energy that traverses the space occupied by the medium and makes up the inflow and out flow of particles.

is the quantum the true nature of reality,, always,, it can never be anything else,,,, no force or power can change or corrupt the entirety of the fundamental quantum nature and existence of reality?

There are all sizes of waves traversing the medium, but at the lowest level of order in my model the waves that are meaningful are those that become synchronized into standing wave patterns that sustained by the inflow and out flow of wave energy. There are tinier waves, and even waves tinier that those right down to infinitesimal but the only meaningful waves at the quantum level are those that have the proper frequency and energy to form particles.

  quantum particles and planck length space exists in every universe that exists and can?

There is only one universe, it is an arena multiverse. Individual arena all have the same physics and the same quanta.

   in your model do you say what and how other universes can exist? 

Yes, there can be no other universes; only one, and it is an arena multiverse.

what their tiniest constituents can be,, and if those tiniest constituents were formed first,, always were,, or were they or could they ever be the result of larger macro quantities of "energy", broken down into infinitesimal pieces,,,,

The universe is dynamic and continually changing at every point, at every structure, every particle, every object, every arena; all are continually being maintained (refreshed) by the flow of wave energy that traverses the medium at the speed of light and gravity. Inflowing and out flowing wave energy sustains all particles and objects.

last night I was thinking of multi universes,,,, thinking of our universe as a cell in a leaf,,, surrounded by other cells,..,,. then i was trying to think how would that middle cell suspect it "got there",.,..,  

Consciousness is a great topic and to think of a cell or particle or an arena as having consciousness is not part of my model, but the generation and evolution of life and consciousness is. 

reply to post by BogieSmiles


"No, in my model all that exists is the foundational medium, waves traversing that medium (waves carry energy), particles that are composed of quantum waves of energy, objects made of particles, radiation in the form of photons which are particles composed of quanta, and unquantized wave energy that traverses the space occupied by the medium and makes up the inflow and out flow of particles. "

hypothetically**
if nothing else existed but the foundational medium.. what would exist? what is the foundational medium "made of"?

the waves that carry energy and traverse the medium... what are the waves? what are they made of?

"Consciousness is a great topic and to think of a cell or particle or an arena as having consciousness is not part of my model, but the generation and evolution of life and consciousness is."

yea, i didnt mean it like that,.,.,, just the fact that if our universe is one of multiple,,, and there is a difference in greater time in which the multiple universes came into existence,,, it is similar to cells surrounded by cells,, for example the cells of a leaf,.,.., the cells ( universes) stuck in the middle would have no clue what is towards the edges and beyond,,, or in what order the cells came into existence,, etc... thats just something i was thinking of,,,.

if you ( hypothetically) could view a small scale model of your multi verse,,, what would it look like or resemble?


"There are all sizes of waves traversing the medium, but at the lowest level of order in my model the waves that are meaningful are those that become synchronized into standing wave patterns that sustained by the inflow and out flow of wave energy. There are tinier waves, and even waves tinier that those right down to infinitesimal but the only meaningful waves at the quantum level are those that have the proper frequency and energy to form particles. "

how are these particles formed? when waves at the quantum level have proper frequency and energy and they collide, they form particles? ,.,.,.,. what happens to all the energy waves that interact with other waves but do not form particles?

Originally posted by ImaFungi


hypothetically**
if nothing else existed but the foundational medium.. what would exist? 

A perfect fluid.

 what is the foundational medium "made of"?

A perfect fluid. It is not like air or water or a gas, it is as close to God as you can get without going supernatural, lol.

the waves that carry energy and traverse the medium... what are the waves? what are they made of?

Energy takes the form of waves that traverse the foundational medium, so they are composed of compressions of the medium that expand spherically from the point of initial compression. But that point of initial compression is always the result of wave intersections and overlaps of other waves. When two billiard balls collide, that is a form of wave intersection composed of trillions and trillions of tiny waves of which the billiard balls are composed. They smack together and send out sound waves and concussion waves because they are "solid" configurations of particles. Wave energy is perfectly conserved by the perfect fluid and there is no wave friction. Friction is a characteristic of particles and objects and not waves traversing the medium. The tiniest of waves will expand forever across otherwise waveless medium, though there is no waveless medium in a universe that has always existed. The spherical expansion of all waves is promptly interrupted by intersecting with other waves.

if you ( hypothetically) could view a small scale model of your multi verse,,, what would it look like or resemble?

I did post a picture of a swath of the ISU:
I would say that it depends on your postition and scope of view, but that drawing assumes you are out in the deep corridores of lowest density space and looking upon a vast swath of the arena landscape of the greater universe. It is debatable how much light you will be able to see outside of the light sphere of a given arena where its light has not yet reached, and arenas have finite light generating lives, and light is always coming at you from the galaxies in the expanding arenas, some galaxies coming toward you and some going away. Arena themselves expand but don't move as a whole relative to other arenas, or if they do the motion on a grand scale is not remarkable. And there is the effect that a big crunch will have on light traversing the corridors because they would also attract light and absorb it so they sort of sweep in the light from the corridors. There are other things to consider that may come up later.

how are these particles formed? when waves at the quantum level have proper frequency and energy and they collide, they form particles? ,.,.,.,.

Particles have finite lives because when they are captured in a big crunch they are negated. Negated means that gravitational compression denies them sufficient particle space to function individually and so they collapse together into the same space and lose their particle characteristics. Only particles have gravity and so when they are negated gravity is defeated for the instant of the collapse/bang. Then exponential expansion of the resulting dense-state wave energy occurs, the density in the arena falls back below the matter formation threshold, and new particles form. I mentioned the scenario of dark matter forming and clumping into standing wave patterns and configurations that become the known particles. Atoms form, huge hydrogen stars form and collapse, and from the dust of each huge collapsed first round star a galaxy forms around the black hole core left by the hydrogen star.

what happens to all the energy waves that interact with other waves but do not form particles? 

That energy comes in several forms. The dark matter does not efficiently clump into known particles and a huge amount of it remains dark, undetectable except for its gravitational signature. The wave energy that takes up residence in standing waves is really not stopping and becoming a particle, it is flowing through a disturbed standing wave pattern in space, but at any instant a huge portion of the energy occupies the standing wave patterns. And of course there is wave energy traversing the space between standing wave patterns, i.e. the inflow and out flow of the standing waves. Also there is wave energy being incorporated into the arena from outside as the expanding arena intrudes into the low energy density space that surrounds it. That low density space contains a cosmic background wave energy that is incorporated into the arena during inflation and expansion because it occupies all space from a potentially infinite history of arena action across the landscape of the greater universe.

reply to post by BogieSmiles


cool,,,

your model image,,, reminds me of the similar layout between galaxies within our universe,.,.,., do you think there is a similarity there between multiple universe and how they would interact,,, and galaxies and how they would interact?

according to your arena model image,,,, im curious as to why/ what makes the bangs occur exactly in the focused area that they do.,,.., i know you say overlapping waves/boundaries of other universes,,, but there had to be a beginning of the momentum, a beginning of the chain of reactions?

you describing the foundational medium, as a perfect liquid,, implies the medium is composed of something,,, as we know liquids are composed of something,... fundamentally what would the foundational medium be composed of? as we know planets and stars are made of atoms which are made of subatomic particles.,,.,. what is the foundational medium made of?

reply to post by ImaFungi


Electron's position and momentum can't be observed following the Uncertainty Principle.

You see, imagine you have a pool table, with 1 ball placed randomly on it. This pool table is in total darkness, so you can't see where the ball is. But you can send something on the table: a couple of white ball which are here glowing weakly. The invisible ball represent the electron you can't observe. Your white balls represent the signal you must send to the target to attempt to determine the target's position. So, you throw this bunch of white balls onto the table. You can only see the white balls. These roll, and then one of them hits something and bounces in an odd direction: You now know where the invisible ball (target particle) is (it is at the point where your white ball collided with something). Correction: You know where this invisible ball WAS. When you hit it with your white ball, the target ball reacted and raced away in another direction. You would need to throw a new bunch of balls to find out where its new position is. You can never determine accurately its CURRENT position.

Originally posted by BogieSmiles
Energy takes the form of waves that traverse the foundational medium, so they are composed of compressions of the medium that expand spherically from the point of initial compression.

This is interresting. Unless I am mistaking, you seem here to incorporate an older concept, the concept of aether. It's not bad, but it is not the most accepted concept in modern physics. In fact Einstein proved the existence of a static medium (aether) false. But again these are all theories...

Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by BogieSmiles

 

cool,,,

your model image,,, reminds me of the similar layout between galaxies within our universe,.,.,., do you think there is a similarity there between multiple universe and how they would interact,,, and galaxies and how they would interact?

The multiple arenas ... you are asking is there is a similarity between the motion and interaction of galaxies within our arena and the arenas that make up the arena landscape of the greater universe?

No. Galaxies have relative momentum within their arena characterized by all of them essentially moving apart, i.e. separation momentum. Arenas on the other hand, though they are made up of galaxies that are moving apart internally, are essentially fixed in space and expand spherically.

according to your arena model image,,,, im curious as to why/ what makes the bangs occur exactly in the focused area that they do.,,.., i know you say overlapping waves/boundaries of other universes,,, but there had to be a beginning of the momentum, a beginning of the chain of reactions?

The arenas expand, i.e. they are spherical and have a center. Expansion is quantified as an increase in the radius of the sphere. Particles form after the expansion/inflation has begun, so particles are all moving away from each other as the wave energy of the arena inflates. Inflation is not like an explosion, it is like energy density equalization at the surface between the arena and the surrounding low density space. The energy density within the arena equalizes it self from the very first instant of inflation and so everything that forms after the start of inflation is not exploding apart, it is moving in accord to the process of energy density equalization. That gives the particles separation momentum as they form, and the particle separation momentum is conserved as particle clumping takes place.

Therefore, the part of your question about a beginning of momentum does not apply to arenas as a whole, which are relatively fixed around the center of gravity of the overlap space where the crunch formed before its collapse/bang. And the arena doesn't move from its center of origin, it expands spherically. It is the spherical expansion that causes parent arenas to intersect and overlap.

you describing the foundational medium, as a perfect liquid,, implies the medium is composed of something,,, as we know liquids are composed of something,... fundamentally what would the foundational medium be composed of? as we know planets and stars are made of atoms which are made of subatomic particles.,,.,. what is the foundational medium made of?  

The medium is composed of something. I call it the perfect fluid, or like I just equated it to the closest thing to God without going supernatural, lol, but maybe is it best described as the foundational host of wave energy, because a waveless medium would be no more dynamic than empty space. Nothing could exist in a waveless medium.

Originally posted by CLPrime

Which questionable aspect of quantum physics is the Moon quote in reference to?

Er, I think it was Shrodinger's cat or some related principle. You know, where something is all possibilities until you observe it.

As for entanglement...something is most definitely missing. QM is not a complete picture. In fact, it's not just entanglement...there's also a little curiosity known as the delayed choice quantum eraser.

I'll be sure to check it out. I feel quantum is not perfect. Of course it's the most better thing we have to predict particles. But I feel the truth is not there - well, that quantum holds only part of the truth.

BTW I didn't went over Shrodinger's equation yet, I got some things to do. But I definitively kept it in memory.

Originally posted by swan001

Originally posted by BogieSmiles
Energy takes the form of waves that traverse the foundational medium, so they are composed of compressions of the medium that expand spherically from the point of initial compression.

This is interresting. Unless I am mistaking, you seem here to incorporate an older concept, the concept of aether. It's not bad, but it is not the most accepted concept in modern physics. In fact Einstein proved the existence of a static medium (aether) false. But again these are all theories...

edit on 19-9-2012 by swan001 because: (no reason given)

Yes, it is an aether model. And as I recall, Einstein proved that an aether was not necessary to host the motion of objects in space if one assumes that space is not just space, but is spacetime that can warp and curve. He provided the math of spacetime but did not prove the aether false, I don't think.

BTW, my aether is not the luminiferous aether of our great granddaddy's, lol. Things don't move through a fixed aether in my model, they are composed of waves traversing the aether. Aether could be characterized as flowing into and out of objects instead of objects moving relative to the aether.