Direct Democrcy

I did not see any current or active topics discussing Direct Democracy. I thought it would be interesting to see what yall think about a Direct Democratic form of government?

To start with what IS a Direct Democracy?

"Direct democracy (or pure democracy) is a form of democracy in which people vote on policy initiatives directly, as opposed to a representative democracy in which people vote for representatives who then vote on policy initiatives."

en.wikipedia.org...

Direct Democracy is YOU voting on issues yourself, instead of voting for a representative to hopefully vote the way that you want them to vote on issues for you.

It was first considered in Athens about 2,500 years ago but did not last long as it was impossible to get the votes of every single person on every issue as the population grew in size. And many people did not have voting rights back then and humans are notorious for craving power and political power over other humans. BUT we have come a LONG way forward and progressed through thousands of progressive footsteps forward into a more free society.

I will say that for what is probably the very first time in human history we are at the point in our technology where we could enable every single citizen to be able to vote on issues personally using the technology of the internet and computers, smartphones and tablets to be informed about what issue is being voted on, and to cast a vote directly on an issue instead of electing representatives to cast a vote for us. As we all know often times representatives usually represent the highest bidder, the lobbyists of corporations. Or represent the majority of the voters who will elect them back into power.

Isn't it time to enable the American citizens with the power to vote personally and directly on a political issue themselves?

I believe in you. I believe in empowering you. I believe that you can and should be trusted with the power to represent yourself and vote directly on every issue personally and directly. I believe in people. I believe there is still good in people. I believe that deep down people truly want freedom and to share that freedom with others. Maybe I am an optimist.

I believe that a representative form of government is archaic and that we have outgrown it. Instead of casting it aside, we are simply building upon it. Making it better. Making it pure. Enabling every single American citizen to be their own representative. To vote how they desire.

After all it is far more difficult to bribe and control 305,358,275 American citizens than it is to bribe and control 100 Senators and 435 members of the house of representatives.

Give the power back to the people how it has been dreamed of for thousands of years.

We can finally claim a government OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people.

WE the people will come to pass as having been achieved!

What do you think?

No no no. Direct Democracy is mob rule. And yes every so often someone pops in here without any sense passing it off as a good idea. Sorry day late dollar short.

reply to post by KeliOnyx


I believe that you should have the ability to decide for yourself how you want to vote on an issue instead of being enslaved and chained to a representative to cast your vote for you.

I believe in you! I believe that you do not need someone to vote for you. That you are an intelligent caring human being who can be entrusted with the responsibility to vote for yourself instead of being forced to have someone else vote for you.

Do you seriously WANT to pay another human being to cast a vote for you?

Do you consider yourself not intelligent enough to vote for yourself that you need to pay another human being to vote for you?

reply to post by DirectDemocracy


I don't trust most Americans to wipe their own backside to be quite honest. Much less entrusting them to make sound policy decisions. The founders understood this one thing extremely well, the public at large are morons.

I like Norway's form of proportional democracy.

www.regjeringen.no...

The Norwegian electoral system is based on the principles of direct election and proportional representation in multi-member electoral divisions. Direct election means that the electors vote directly for representatives of their constituency by giving their vote to an electoral list. Proportional representation means that the representatives are distributed according to the relationship to one another of the individual electoral lists in terms of the number of votes they have received. Both political parties and other groups can put up lists at elections.

www.stortinget.no...

bostonreview.net...

Proportional representation (PR) is based on the principle that any group of like-minded voters should win legislative seats in proportion to its share of the popular vote. Whereas the winner-take-all principle awards 100 percent of the representation to a 50.1 percent majority, PR allows voters in a minority to win their fair share of representation.

How does this work? A typical winner-take-all system of divides voters into "one-seat districts," represented by one person. With PR, voters in a constituency instead have several representatives: ten one-seat districts might, for example, be combined into a single ten-seat district. A party or group of voters that wins 10 percent of the popular vote in this district, then, would win one of the ten seats; a party or slate of candidates with 30 percent of votes would win three seats, etc....

Votes aren't wasted, more women get elected, more coalitions, more unity, less dictatorial decisions, compromise, and discussions, more parties are involved and more grass roots parties get seats, and its a far better system than our "elect a lying king".

reply to post by KeliOnyx


What are political representatives but members of the public? Only far less of them making them MUCH more susceptible to collusion and bribery.

When you go out to vote in an election to vote for a representative to vote for you, you vote in an area that is usually a voting district. Often times the majority of the people in this area will vote the same way. When you go out to vote most of those people in that large crowd are voting the exact same way. A mob of people.

With a direct democracy it is the exact opposite of a mob. You vote from your home in privacy. Not in a voting district. You vote for yourself. As an individual. How you want. You vote for what you want.

You are not pigeon holed and boxed into some tiny decision between 2 people hoping your political ideology is somehow represented in some small way by one of the two choices predetermined for you.

Cast off the representative system.
Empower the people and you will truly set them free.
Represent yourself, how you want.
As an individual representing yourself, instead of a representative mob rule system.

I agree that Direct Democracy is a good thing.

There is no real need for a referendum/plebicite on every issue though in my opinion. Just the big stuff. Surely we can come to a obvious consensus on most stuff.

I think the big thing that needs to change is the way we allow politicians to treat us. The way we allow the media to treat us. Modern politicians are not interested in listening to the people. Modern politicians are in the business of telling the people.

We need to tell them to shut the [SNIP] up and listen. We need them to know that they dont tell us, we tell them.

A good leader can rule by consensus without referendums for every issue. Thats the sad thing. But we only have ourselves to blame for allowing the politicians to treat us in the insulting way that they do.

reply to post by freemarketsocialist


I disagree. I believe we should vote independently and directly on EVERY issue no matter how small or trivial it might seem. Get people used to the idea of researching a political topic and voting on it every single time. Ween people off the breast of the representative.

I imagine at first it would be like my last tour in Iraq. People not really understanding how to vote or what to vote for. Very confused with the concept of democracy for the first time in their life. But the look in their eyes after they cast their first vote, their purple dyed and stained fingers were held up like they were pointing to Saddam himself, daring him to try and take their newly found power away from them. Daring another Dictator to try and take power back from them.

I believe in people. I HAVE to believe in people. If I did not believe that people were better than given credit for I would just give up and check out immediately. Hope is the only thing that keeps me going. Hope for a better world. Hope that people can change. Hope that people truly want freedom for everyone deep inside their hearts.

"In great attempts it is glorious even to fail." -Cassius Longinus

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." – Thomas Jefferson

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free." -- Sir Edward Gibbon

Originally posted by KeliOnyx
No no no. Direct Democracy is mob rule. And yes every so often someone pops in here without any sense passing it off as a good idea. Sorry day late dollar short.

I'm with you. Direct democracy is one of those things that, on the face of it, sounds like a great and wonderful thing. But the wisdom of our forefathers wins out again. One of the things they were very aware of was the tendency of the majority to squash individual liberty.

Not, let me hasten to add, that we have much individual liberty left right now. But we'll get it back--and it won't be through mob rule.

A few weeks back someone on this site (I regret that I don't remember who it was) said something very like: "Think of a plain, ordinary "C" student. Half of everyone is stupider than that." And that's our problem. Most people don't understand the issues that affect us; nor the intelligence to make even reasonably well-informed decisions on them.

To the OP: No, but thanks. I'll take my chances on throwing out the crooks and criminals and getting back to our original constitution....

Originally posted by DirectDemocracy
reply to post by freemarketsocialist

 

I disagree. I believe we should vote independently and directly on EVERY issue no matter how small or trivial it might seem. Get people used to the idea of researching a political topic and voting on it every single time. Ween people off the breast of the representative.

I imagine at first it would be like my last tour in Iraq. People not really understanding how to vote or what to vote for. Very confused with the concept of democracy for the first time in their life. But the look in their eyes after they cast their first vote, their purple dyed and stained fingers were held up like they were pointing to Saddam himself, daring him to try and take their newly found power away from them. Daring another Dictator to try and take power back from them.

I believe in people. I HAVE to believe in people. If I did not believe that people were better than given credit for I would just give up and check out immediately. Hope is the only thing that keeps me going. Hope for a better world. Hope that people can change. Hope that people truly want freedom for everyone deep inside their hearts.

"In great attempts it is glorious even to fail." -Cassius Longinus

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." – Thomas Jefferson

"In the end, more than they wanted freedom, they wanted security. They wanted a comfortable life, and they lost it all -- security, comfort, and freedom. When ... the freedom they wished for was freedom from responsibility, then Athens ceased to be free." -- Sir Edward Gibbon

edit on 31-8-2012 by DirectDemocracy because: (no reason given)

I do not believe in the type of 'democracy' that the US Military brings at all. No offence.

And I think you are kidding yourself if you think the masses will bother with every issue.

Nice quotes.Here ya go

reply to post by Ex_CT2


Enjoy that choice between A or B. Let me know how that is working out for you. The truth is our current form of government IS a mob rule. A choice between A or B. You go outside in a public place to vote, with many other members of your voting district all voting for the exact same representative as a mob of people.

With a direct democracy you vote from home on every issue separately, without the need of a moblike political party telling you how the party votes on issues like a package deal.

Every issue is separate with a Direct Democracy. Every time you vote you are free and unrestrained by a political party, or a mob like voting district.

You do not have to tow any party lines. Your choices go from A or B to literally billions of different choice combinations.

Take your personal top ten political issues from the 2012 election.

More than likely you WILL have to compromise on at least one of these issues because the political party that you are pigeon holed into voting for (A or B) does not agree with you fully on all of these issues.

With a Direct Democracy there is no compromise.

You will NEVER be pigeon holed into a prepackaged predetermined choice of two different ideologies.

YOU vote for yourself independently on every single issue separately. You are your own political representative. Of course you will not get a limo driver and a chauffeur, a personal private jet, you will not get an incredible medical package, or a retirement pension for life, and you will not be treated like a celebrity. Lobbyists will not throw money at you.

If the top ten political issues are

1) A is for B is against
2) B is for A is against
3) B is for A is against
4) A is for B is against
5) A is for B is against
6) B is for A is against
7) A is for B is against
8) B is for A is against
9) B is for A is against
10) A is for B is against

YOU can choose with a direct democracy to be In favor of EVERY political issue! Or against EVERY political issue! And to vote accordingly! You can be For the first half and Against the second half. You can be for and against every other issue evenly or odd. You can Be for or against the first nine issues. It is a nearly limitless voting option. You vote for issues that you want to. Not what a representative tells you that they are going to vote for.

All it takes is to empower the other human beings you share the land with. Nothing more. Nothing less. Give people more freedom. Empower them. And you yourself shall become empowered.

reply to post by DirectDemocracy


Dear DirectDemocracy,

Your assumption about why we came up with representative democracy is incorrect. I lived in the last town in the United States that still voted by town hall meeting, direct democracy. The more people you have, the more complicated the questions, the more complicated the questions, the fewer who understood the issues. For this reason people would begin to select people who specialized in certain issues to tell them how to vote. The issues today are so complicated that direct democracy would be a farce much of the time. There are times for direct and times for representative democracy. It worked quite well for many years.

What has occurred, because of term limits and other changes, is that we now elect representatives that we like as people; but, they don't make their choices, the "experts" do and the polls do. They don't understand the issues and rely on others to explain it to them. None of them read the Patriot Act, the Stimulus or the TARP before voting for them, they had already been printed, check it out. This is not any form of democracy, this is a technocracy.

Direct Democracy today would require simple language and that is interpreted by practitioners anyway that they want because it has no specificity. There is no way to legally challenge such laws. You don't have a clear definition to go by. It cannot work, it only convinces more that they are making the choices and they are not. Proportional representation is equally a joke, there is no true consensus and frequently it is impossible to make any decisions under such forms of government.

There can never be an effective democracy that is fair just because it is a democracy. Democracy does not assure that the best things occur, nothing does. I like Aristotle, I agree with him. Democracy is not the best of government, it is the least harmful. Heck, lets give direct democracy a try again, we cannot do any worse than the place we are in. S&F. I write free style, sorry if I changed up on you, just warnings maybe.

Don't expect many people around here to consider DD as a real alternative, they claim to be searching for a truth that is hidden from them and yet they are apologists for the ones who hide it from them. Crazy. They are also very fearful and untrustworthy.

The only reason wealthy Athenians like Plato were so opposed to Democracy is because their view of humanity was that humans were born corrupt and immoral, and it takes philosophy (intense critical thinking) to overcome these innate tendencies. Pretty much all modern day "mob rule" propaganda is born out of this line of thinking laid out in Plato's Republic. The thing is, Plato wrote that 2500 years ago at a time when Athens was morally corrupt do to the negative reactions (karma) that was a result of their imperialistic desires (similar to the US now). 2500 years of scientific and technological advancements have rendered that line of thinking obsolete.

The forefathers were intelligent but they were wealthy white men who followed in Plato's footsteps of trying to create an Aristocracy (called a Republic). It sounds like a good idea, but it never worked in Athens (or anywhere else) because it is unrealistic. Further, Plato wrote that not in a literal sense as to describe his political ideology, but as an analogy for an individual's development of his self. As Plato stated, if such a Republic were to be attempted, as quickly as three generations removed from the foundation of the Aristocracy the structure of government will have shifted into an Oligarchy and degregate from there into tyranny.

What we know now, through social science, neuroscience, psychology, biology, anthropology... is that the environment is the largest determinant of how a society will develop and turn out. Make it a more fair and equal and prosperous society, and the people will grow to be righteous and intelligent. Make it a dog-eat-dog, warmongering, greed ridden and unequal society, and the people will grow to be corrupt and unintelligent. Aristocrats (who are really Capitalist Plutocrats) would rather keep society closer to the latter than the former because it demands their leadership and rule. Something like DD renders them powerless and moves society closer towards equality and justice for all.

In reality, we don't live in a Democracy. This is considered to be a Representative Democracy but in fact that is just a veil to hide its true colors, being a hopeful Aristocracy that is in fact a degenerative Plutarchy. I am all for DD. In fact, I would say it is the only hope we have to change this sinking boat around. Demand power be placed back into your hand! Never remain satisfied with giving the few a monopoly on force to use and abuse on others and even yourself. You deserve more than that!

The fact that many people don't understand why a direct democracy is bad, is probably a good indicator of whats wrong in america.

The education system blows...

Take a civ course.

Let me give you an example.

On issues that would effect say only one or two states you would have the rest of the country deciding whats good for them.

Its majority rule, and that automatically means you are suppressing the rights of the minority.

The fair division of representation is what a Democratic republics goal is, so that you do not have the Majority dictating and controlling the Minority.

Can you not honestly see how that is a bad thing?

Here educate yourself a little bit...

reply to post by DirectDemocracy


You assume far too much about me and you know far too little about how the world works. Sleep well with your wonderful dream, but count me out....

reply to post by AQuestion


I do not mind your writing style. You write from the heart. You write what you think. I do as well.

If we baby people and keep treating them like invalids then they will act that way forever. You do not get people to act more responsibly by giving them less freedom, you empower people by giving more responsibility to them.

I agree that many political issues are complex and hard to understand. But people have no reason to even try and understand them. Big brother is doing all the work making it all better for wittle baby by doing it for them.

Just sit back and let candidate A or B take care of everything. It will all be better soon. Do not worry your pretty little head about it. Big brother will take care of everything.

Just handle this simple wittle baby responsibility of pressing button A or button B. Then you can go home and veg out in your barka lounger watching football drinking a nice cold beverage.

reply to post by benrl


As opposed to an Executive order? Or executive privilege? As opposed to politicians voting in the interests of the lobbyists giving them hundreds of millions of dollars in "campaign contributions"? Do YOU honestly not see what is wrong with a representative system?

reply to post by openlocks


Amazing post. It was a pleasure for me to read that. I fail to see how people cannot trust themselves and their fellow citizens with power, yet trust a few single citizens propped up as famous powerful elite celebrities with power.

This video should give you a good idea wht direct democracy is a bad idea.

www.youtube.com...

I was turned on to this by an economics teacher in college.

Originally posted by DirectDemocracy
reply to post by AQuestion

 

If we baby people and keep treating them like invalids then they will act that way forever. You do not get people to act more responsibly by giving them less freedom, you empower people by giving more responsibility to them.

I agree that many political issues are complex and hard to understand. But people have no reason to even try and understand them. Big brother is doing all the work making it all better for wittle baby by doing it for them.

Just sit back and let candidate A or B take care of everything. It will all be better soon. Do not worry your pretty little head about it. Big brother will take care of everything.

Just handle this simple wittle baby responsibility of pressing button A or button B. Then you can go home and veg out in your barka lounger watching football drinking a nice cold beverage.

Dear DirectDemocracy,

People are people, you cannot turn everyone in to a genius; but, their opinion and feelings matter too. The absolute dumbest of us or the absolute most gullible of us still matters. Not everyone can understand the finer points of the law or medicine if we don't even understand what is being discussed. This world requires that we listen to experts; but, we must listen for their truthfulness and not how their answer gets us the answer the will benefit us personally. You get the government you deserve, if the majority vote for self interest then you get a governing class that believes in self interest first. It matters not what they call themselves or which party they belong to, they all agree on self interest first, same as this country and same as the people they elect. Self interest first rather than doing what is best everyone first and then considering self interest.