The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs

reply to post by FireMoon


Great story but I disagree with you on the final conclusion

The thing is, it works, we're all here and now, talking about "mid control" and "micro waves" placing voices in out heads and the truth is, there is actually less evidence to support anyone has managed it, in any genuine sense of the word, than there is that, UFOs are nut and bolts craft piloted by an unknown intelligence.

Mind control is indisputable, you even did provide an example of it but it can get a lot more complicated as for placing voices into anther's head its easy probably not into the micro waves spectrum (it would have to have a resonator or highly concentrated and carefully directed beam into something that would do the job). So in the genuine sense of the word those things have already been made possible, probably not by the 70s (but I wouldn't have a way to come up with a date, for example the creation and empowering of belief systems as a type of mental control is ancient as many other hypnotic phenomena).

As for the little green men in metal crafts, come up with a good tale about the 1977 Colares incident link it in some way with the 1976 Imperial Iranian intersection official report and I will reconsider my stance on crafts piloted by an unknown intelligence (even if I do not out of hand place green men in them).

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by IsaacKoi
Okay.

Have you been in touch with Kit Green?

I haven't wanted to bother him until I've done some more homework - but I keep getting tempted to see if he will answer a few questions (e.g. in relation to a thread I've been planning about a searchable archive of CIA documents about UFOs akin to the thread I posted about an archive of the FBI's UFO documents)...

I am absolutely positive he will reply to any of your communications.

I'm going to try to resist the temptation to contact Dr Green until I've finished at least one more long thread that I've been researching during the last couple of months.

Once I've posted that thread, I'll probably turn to focus on the CIA...

I've already started uploading CIA documents relating to UFOs but there's quite a bit more work to do on that, including contacting Kit Green.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by OkabeRintaro
Well, the interesting bit about this is that we're talking about psyops techniques documented in the public domain. I guess if you wanted to run into intelligence operatives performing psyops in the UFO community, your best bet would be to run counter-psyops of your own.

Boy oh boy I like the sound of that. They have sharp little infected teeth though. Tar-babies. Something along the lines that Doc Jock (Vallee) postulated--and was apparently implemented by some element--in regards manipulating the "control system" but back at 'em....

edit on 8-7-2013 by The GUT because: (no reason given)

The whole UMMO debacle seems like a good prototype upon which to base a modern counter-psyop. Unfortunately, it's going to be hard to figure out a way to contact strangers with odd messages without coming off as either a kook or a 419 scammer! Certainly using the postal service is off, because of recent history with regard to the distribution of anthrax that way and the resulting distrust of strange letters.

UMMO was accepted by so many people in part because the ideas were on the whole plausible, and experts thought the content was coming from other experts. An expert is less likely to fall for that now, because autodidacticism is more common because of the widespread availability of the internet and internet-based learning resources. So, one no longer jumps to the conclusion that if someone seems quite expert in an obscure field yet has no degree, they may well be extraterrestrial!

There's apparently a pretty big community of people who think UMMO is legitimate and the confession of hoax was itself a hoax. I guess the UMMO name could be revived.

reply to post by The GUT


S&F, a worthy topic. I just have not had time to get into this thread, certainly not all 56 pages of it.

Later. This should bump it up.

reply to post by The GUT


Very informative thread The GUT From what I pick up you are explaining the various mind states related to the Aviary and then lay out Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green portfolio within. Found his research in the Neuroscience field to be extremely interesting. It seems from observing his other related credentials that he would fit the somewhat profile of an individual that would be into some of the many sciences related to the fringe deep/black?! projects that he himself @ times may have wonder twice about his reason for being part of.

And so 1 can understand how you lay out the Aviary perspective and then ask how some feel ... of he integrity wise. And to 1 it would be based on his intents when interacting in those private Military but non military sectors 1 describes them as OFF MAP, perhaps with Col. Alexanderas or others like ... Doing whatever it is that they dont do. Hope for the best in heart and again with how he describes actions to spoon feed, here.

So we have to ask ourselves how we can tell people what they deserve to know and, maybe, what they need to know?

'The way to do it is to construct a framework whereby they can parse out the things that they've heard that are not true, and you whittle it down to a manageable story. A story like this: "There were three spaceships that came here over thirty years, and we've got one of them. We can't figure out how it works, we've crashed it because there's a lot of physics that we've still got to learn. We do have something that's like a magnethydrodynamic toroid, and it really did get a craft of the ground, but it smelled bad and it killed a couple of pilots. And we're really sorry about that, but we did it because we've got this machine that came from another planet, and we need to know how it works." '

Oh god, he just did it again. I tried to slow my breathing to prevent the giddiness from becoming a full-on panic attack.

Kit carried on, oblivious to my inner struggle. I was glad not to be inside one of his MRI machines.

'How do you tell people that story? If it's true?' he added, almost parenthetically.

"If you were to give them the core story right off the bat, they'd get sick, so you do it slowly over ten or twenty years.You put out a bunch of movies, a bunch of books, a bunch of stories, a bunch of Internet memes about reptilian aliens eating our children, about all the crazy stuff that we've seen recently in Serpo. Then one day you say, "Hey, all that stuff is nonsense, relax, it's not that bad, you don't have to worry, the reality is this..." - and then you give them the real story."

1 can SEE how throwing all the shocks doubts half truths and truths in the consciousness collective of the un exposed with the various social programming mechanism and then in the end throw the truth = somewhere near mid point of it all in there as like a calmer mental device for the masses... Intelligence and makes sense thanks for the share.

The laboratory bio-robotic-chem designs? the techs evolved from the neuroscience, it would make sense someone in the advance field of genetic study & fringe related agenda being able to pair/understand genes coming in contact with those black zones and interest.

magnethydrodynamic toroid- subjective input-
seems it would of been reverse engineered technology response transmit but the magnethydrodynamic toroid couldn't understand the human to ??? interfaces maybe too busy on this side trying to match the . to the that's ai droid like with body? and most definitely RIP to those lost during research.

Thanks again The GUT gives 1 something to think more on...

NAMASTE*******

reply to post by AuranVector
Thank you, AuranVector, I'm delighted you dropped in.

I realize it's a massive amount of pages, information, stops and starts, and SHENANIGANS, but I do believe, for those with the stamina to sift through it all, a rewarding and fairly clear picture begins to form.

See you around, and it's been a pleasure to get to know you here recently.

reply to post by Ophiuchus 13
Ophiuchus 13! Hey thanks, you have challenged and stretched my mind in various topics we've both found ourselves posting on the last few years, and I think you know that I've become quite fond of you. You have a deep mind and a good soul. I sincerely appreciate your encouragement.

One organisation that is missing from all this that to my mind should be investigated is Mossad. They are the daddies, the man, the numero uno for at least 3 decades. In part Israel guaranteed its' own existence by having the "dirt" on both sides and that included knowing who, on either side, was actually playing both sides , or in some cases, every damn side of the fence. Mossad had ,for at least 30 years and might well still do, the KGB, the CIA, MI5/6/DI9, or whatever it was called at the time, in their back pocket.

Has anyone ever heard from a Mossad agent about UFO's, has anyone ever gone native from Mossad about the subject is there any paper trail whatsoever leading back to their doorstep?

Mossad the CIA Uri and his amazing bending spoons tell Jacko what to do?

Let's be clear here, it is many "in the knows" opinion that, it was Mossad setting the agenda and the CIA were merely the poodle. There's the rub, whilst Green et all were furtling around in some backwater lab as their colleagues tittered about the "loonies", Mossad might well have had the whole damned world's media working on their behalf doing mass experiments via Geller. .

reply to post by FireMoon

I like it, FireMoon, I truly do. Uri does have to be taken into consideration from that angle.

As you infer, it doesn't take away from the premise in this thread, but it does raise the very real question of : Who's fooling who?

reply to post by The GUT

my video when i meting a men in black mayby
www.youtube.com...

Still reading through carefully guys and have done some serious homework on this Aviary group and all of the mis/disinformation being leaked. At least in a nutshell that's what I gather, I apologize if I'm a little bit behind on this thread. I think it's one of the most important ones up on ATS, many thanks to TG and others for contributing.

Anyway I did check out the members (Harrier, Chickadee, Blue Jay, etc) and their respective roles. Falcon (Rositzke) appears to have been the one calling the shots with Doty as his cover? It seems everything was so compartmentalized and segregated that at that time many of these men niether knew each other, met, heard of each other, or all three. As others have suggested that "Once in the Agency, Always in the Agency..." may be the case with some of the "birds", then isn't it also safe to say that there may be (or once were) a few "rotten apples" so to speak among them? Or even more realistically, ALL of them if their prime directives were or once Ufological deception?

Again, I could be way off, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If I were to guess I'd say it was a mixed bag. Some probably had good intentions, some didn't, some deviated from the plan for their own reasons or gain, and some may have been playing both sides. What unites all of these men (and anyone involved in the intelligence agencies for that matter) is their natural ability to keep secrets.

Wouldn't it seem too good to be true for them all to have had good intentions?

I would actually go as far as saying it's "wishful thinking" to the Ufologist community.

Once again, any and all feedback is appreciated!

reply to post by The GUT

In a nutshell: Our community--the ufological community that is--has been used as a control group, for, wait for it...mind control as relates to national security issues.

I'd agree that mind control was certainly part of it, just as any propaganda or disinformation effort is, seeking to make a group believe what you want them to believe...but to what end?

Do you feel they created the whole mythos (captured EBE, Yellow Book, etc.) just to test out mind control theory as an end in and of itself?

Or, is there something else entirely, like a mix of truth and fiction to make the inevitable reveal more palatable?

I have to think both ideas have the same chance of being accurate.

Originally posted by DarkTemplar101
...As others have suggested that "Once in the Agency, Always in the Agency..." may be the case with some of the "birds", then isn't it also safe to say that there may be (or once were) a few "rotten apples" so to speak among them? Or even more realistically, ALL of them if their prime directives were or once Ufological deception?...

...Again, I could be way off, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. If I were to guess I'd say it was a mixed bag. Some probably had good intentions, some didn't, some deviated from the plan for their own reasons or gain, and some may have been playing both sides.

I'm with you on separating the Birds so-to-speak. As IsaacKoi noted early in this thread, their motives seem to be varied.

In my research, I've focused on two and found that if I keep my eye on and carefully trace them, then at least one part of the picture comes into sharper focus. Those two being Dr. Christopher Canfield "Kit" Green and Col. John B . Alexander.

Their motives certainly DO appear to be different than say, C.B. Scott Jones. IsaacKoi also really helped me to understand Cmdr. Jones. It seems that C.B. Scott Jones probably really is all about some disclosure. Isaac provided us with a copy of one of his books which is linked below in my signature.

C.B. Scott Jones also had the following to say about UFO research:

As posted on the Austin MUFON website and recently confirmed by Jones, he claimed during his presentation to believe writer/researcher and friend Michael Drosnin was targeted by the FBI with an incapacitating electronic mind control device. Jones further claimed he advised Dr. John Gibbons, science advisor to President Clinton during the time in question, of such matters.

Jones informed Gibbons, "There are reasons to believe that some government group has interwoven research about this (mind control) technology with alleged UFO phenomena. If that is correct, you can expect to run into early resistance when inquiring about UFOs, not because of the UFO subject, but because that has been used to cloak research and applications of mind-control activity.”

When asked if he continues to think the UFO subject cloaks mind control research and applications, Jones replied, "I think that the UFO/ET subject has been used to cloak a number of classified U.S.programs that certainly includes mind control. It probably has been used more often to confuse and disguise aerospace weapon systems than other subjects. It has been particularly effective when there is a presumed close relationship between what is trying to be protected and assumptions about characteristics associated with UFOs and ETs.

ufotrail.blogspot.com...

John Alexander, Contradictions and Unanswered Questions

Ufology and Alleged Post-MKULTRA Mind Control

Thank you, DarkTemplar for your comments and for working through this challenging thread. Lots of pages, lots of off-topic, etc. so I really appreciate it.

I should note that IsaacKoi has been a wealth of information, and is a fine man and superior ufological researcher, but I don't suggest that he holds the same views as expressed here by me.

Originally posted by Gazrok
I'd agree that mind control was certainly part of it, just as any propaganda or disinformation effort is, seeking to make a group believe what you want them to believe...but to what end?

Do you feel they created the whole mythos (captured EBE, Yellow Book, etc.) just to test out mind control theory as an end in and of itself?

Or, is there something else entirely, like a mix of truth and fiction to make the inevitable reveal more palatable?

I have to think both ideas have the same chance of being accurate.

Yeah, at this point, I have come to wholeheartedly believe that all the MJ-12 stuff is a prepared myth. I wish I could believe otherwise, but I can't anymore.

I'll bring up two points to consider for now as far as MJ goes. One would be, why, if some slow-disclosure is going on, would anyone let Rick Doty start inserting elements of "truth" about UFOS during the operation against Paul Bennewitz? One would think any true disclosure effort would want to be divorced from such un-honarable actions.

The other comes from information in Col. John B. Alexander's new book, forwarded by Jacques Vallee, in which Alexander basically states his opinion of the phenomenon falls on the inter-extra-ultra dimensional side as opposed to the ETH. WHERE in the MJ-12 materials do we find anything other than references to an EBE from another planetary system? We don't.

Tying Col. Alexander to MJ-12 is trickier, say, than the obvious participation of Kit Green in both MJ-12 and Serpo, but the ties are there and of long vintage.

Let's look at how Col. John B. Alexander feels about a few things concerning conspiracy theorists and Ufological deception…and non-lethal weaponry:

"Another category of concern is against whom non-lethal weapons might be employed," writes Alexander with his characteristically blithe understatement.

"Paranoia is running rampant in the United States. We have addressed the militia movements and surprising widespread support that conspiracy theories receive."

"Distrust of the government by not thousands but tens of millions of US citizens is confirmed in public opinion surveys," he continues. "The skepticism and controversy has been fueled by recent revelations that the US government has routinely lied to the people about such varied topics as human radiation experiments, withholding treatment in the Tuskegee prison syphilis experiments, the oppressive actions of the Internal Revenue Service, the amount and geographic area covered by fallout from nuclear testing, and even UFO sightings."

"Many of these conspiracy theory adherents believe that the government -- or some other supranational organization -- is attempting to take freedom away from the citizens. Some of them see non-lethal weapons as tools to facilitate those objectives. They believe that these weapons could be used to enslave them for some unstated nefarious purpose." Don't worry, says Alexander reassuringly, everything's under control. You just don't know how much.

"The fallacy of this logic should be readily apparent," he continues. "Sufficient force already exists to accomplish this task. Therefore no new non-lethal weapons would be necessary."

www.umsl.edu...

reply to post by The GUT


Thank you. It's always a pleasure, my friend. Dissecting this entire thread and looking at all the cards (the ones that remain and are available that is) has definitely been not only informative but enjoyable

Alexander seems to take his work very seriously and like you said highly unlikely to deviate from his roots as an expert of his trade in the intelligence business...Even going as far as calling it his "baby"...

I read up a little bit on the Phoenix Program and in my opinion anyone who ever could have been involved in that must be dedicated by their soul...Torture and killing targeted not at soldiers but civilians? Could he be doing the same thing now just using his "baby" against Ufology instead of the Vietnamese? (non physical and information warfare). One thing I know for sure is that I would be highly skeptical about any statements he makes or puts out.

As far as the disguising of top secret programs, I find it interesting this "government group" would interweave it with UFO and ET of all things. It sounds like whatever research that is being done under the radar is somehow related to the Aliens, only the idea is to draw less attention to the subject.

Also wanted to add a thank you to Issac Koi for the C.B. Scott Jones book! I've downloaded the PDF and will without a doubt give it a crack once I have more time to sit and extract.

Most seem to think the MJ-12 docs are lies peppered with small truths.

Thing is, the sheer effort involved with completely doing this from scratch (and at the time when they were revealed), is a pretty big one, especially with the level of consistency in the timeline of events.

That's why I lean to it being more fact than fiction, and more truth peppered with enough lies to make it deniable.

The mention of the IPU (Interplanetary Phenomena Unit) is a prime example. The MJ-12 papers were the first to mention this acronym....allegedly a group of scientists formed to first examine something from another world. Yet, years later, an FOIA request ends up confirming such a group existed (though not their purpose).

Here was the response:

"Please be advised that the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit of the Scientific and Technical Branch, Counter Intelligence Directorate, Department of the Army, was disestablished during the late 1950’s and never reactivated. All records pertaining to this unit were surrendered to the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) in conjunction with operation "Bluebook”.
We regret that we are unable to be of more assistance concerning this matter."

The fact that it was surrendered to Bluebook, though, is pretty indicative of the group's purpose.

Originally posted by Gazrok
Thing is, the sheer effort involved with completely doing this from scratch (and at the time when they were revealed), is a pretty big one, especially with the level of consistency in the timeline of events.

That's why I lean to it being more fact than fiction, and more truth peppered with enough lies to make it deniable.

In whose hands and how far back can we trace the MJ-12 information? That question becomes important I think. What about Project Aquarius and Serpo? How do they fit in?

I'm not totally closed to the idea that there still might be some truth to the info, but the deeper I dig the shadier the purposes AND the folk involved become.

At the very least, I can't see it as part of an official "slow" disclosure. So, if that proved true--that it wasn't a part of official disclosure--then that would suggest "rogue" governmental officials and yet, even though we can put the documents in certain hands, those folk certainly haven't seemed to have been censored or punished in any way.

When it comes to "strange loops" though, yeah, who tha' heck knows?

...By the time Turing, Fleming, Wheatley and kindred British intellects had perfected the Double-Cross System, the science of lying was almost as precise as Euclidian geometry, and nearly as lovely to the detached observer.

What the Double-Cross experts had invented was the practical political applications of the Strange Loop. In logic or cybernetics, a Strange Loop is a set of propositions that, while valid at each point, is so constructed that it leads to an unresolvable paradox. The Double-Cross people drove the Germans bonkers by inventing disinformation systems that, if believed, were deceptive, but if doubted led to a second disinformation system. They enjoyed this work so much that, at times, they invented Triple Loops...

These Strange Loops functioned especially well because the Double-Cross experts had early on fed the Germans the primordial Strange Loop. "Most of your agents are working for us and feeding your Strange Loops."

Many German agents, it later turned out, had managed to collect quite a bit of accurate information about the Normandy invasion, but many others turned in equally plausible information about a fictitious Norwegian invasion; and all of them were under suspicion, anyway. German Intelligence might as well have made its decisions by tossing a coin in the air."

--Robert Anton Wilson

www.skilluminati.com...

But back to the first questions: In whose hands and in what time-frame can we first trace the specific MJ-12 information? And what about Project Aquarius and Serpo? How do they fit in?

reply to post by The GUT

In whose hands and in what time-frame can we first trace the specific MJ-12 information

Pretty much the 80's, and the various Aviary members (and others, who may be linked to them) that provided investigators with the documents.

All of the sources (and dates) can be found here:

majesticdocuments.com...

As for the other projects, they didn't have much basis, and reeked of sci-fi fantasy. Entertaining, but no real meat like real or fake documents. (not to mention how they just fail to make sense)....

For anyone that hasn't seen torsion's thread about Greg Valdez's (son of Gabe) upcoming book Dulce Base will probably find that thread interesting and pertinent to the discussion here.

NIDS + The Aviary = Disinfo/Mind Control. Sound outrageous? Looks like the evidence continues to build. And build.

I, for one, can't wait for the book. It also has a companion website--linked below--that will offer the evidence in both documentation and pictures from the personal case files of Gabe Valdez.

Dulce Base - upcoming book by Greg Valdez

Dulce Base: The Truth and Evidence from the Case Files of Gabe Valdez book review by Norio Hayakawa

Were NIDS and Bigelow Aerospace funded as a black budget CIA project to prevent scrutiny and accountability?

books.google.com...

Greg Valdez on Radio Mysterioso

Greg Valdez on The Paracast



Dulce Base Official Website

Here's a quote from Greg in answer to a question I asked him on torsion's post as regards NIDS and their non-disclosure contracts:

...They did the same thing to Bennewitz when they gave him the $75,000 dollar grant to conduct research. In both cases they get access to both my dad's and Paul's files and then the gain they most important thing which is control. My dad did not immediately sign the non-disclosure agreement when he started working with NIDS. The waited until he was in the middle of a lot of strange things before they made him sign it. It is a big key to this mystery. NIDS did the same thing to MUFON, throw money at the "problem", see what the have and pay them so they can control what information is going in and more importantly control what is going out. If you know the NIDS story, a ton of information went in, but nothing relevant or important ever came out. I'll let you think about that for a while and you should be able to figure out why this happened.

Does make a lot of sense, especially when we add, as Greg mentions, the most recent stuff with MUFON.

Also reminds me of Bigelow buying the confidential case files of abductees. Which brings to mind the assertion in this thread in regards the TIGER study (Co-Chaired by Dr. Christopher "Kit" Green) and their goal of learning to differentiate between "true and false" memories...amongst other things:

True and False Memories as an Illustrative Case of the Difficulty of Developing Accurate and Practical Neurophysiological Indexes of Psychological States

An important issue for cognitive neuroscientists concerns efforts to determine whether a person is reporting a true experience or one that is false but believed. In the last decade, there have been innumerable research efforts designed to distinguish true from false memories. Earlier work examining behavioral differences between true and false memories revealed that group differences were sometimes found (for example, more sensory details in true-memory reports) (Schooler et al., 1986). However, the statistical group differences did not enable reliable classification of any particular memory report as to its authenticity...

www.nap.edu...