The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs, page 2


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reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 06:55 AM by IsaacKoi
Originally posted by The GUT
The initial questions raised might find some of the Aviary elements falling into all the categories. But if you, like me, find it highly unlikely that either Dr. Green or Col. John Alexander would go rogue and dump on their allegiances and continued fees as "consultants," then I think we can safely remove two from the list in regards to their main motivations:


Hi The Gut,

Starred and flagged. An interesting thread on a topic that has interested me for quite a while.

However, a couple of points:

(1) I would not assume that all members of The Aviary had the same motivation(s).

(2) I don't think your posts above result justify a view that either Dr. Green or Col. John Alexander have been shown to have gone "rogue" or "dump on their allegiances and continued fees".

In your research, I assume from this thread and your prior posts on ATS that you've read both "The Mirage Men" and "Project Beta" - but have you also read some of the books on remote viewing which heavily feature some of the members of the Aviary and give an insight into their personalities? If not, I'd be happy to recommend a couple of the relevant books.

Originally posted by The GUT
We're certainly treading in murky--purposely murky--waters here.


We can certainly agree on that. The possible motives for some people making these waters so murky is, however, a point on which different views can reasonably be held.

All the best,

Isaac
edit on 31-8-2012 by IsaacKoi because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 07:51 AM by Quaesitor
Great thread and information The GUT! S&F

It's great to see others here as interested in this as I am. And from our exchanges you already know we are probably in agreement on 99% of this stuff.

Having said that the only disagreement I have with your analysis is that I can't yet dismiss hypothesis 1 you mentioned, namely that these group of people "are UFO believers who in their high-clearance careers have heard rumors and have subsequently tried to determine for themselves what the government is hiding in regards to UFOs." And maybe you don't exactly dismiss it, you just believe, right now, based on what you have researched, that it's not as likely a possibility as some of the others you put forward.

First, personally, I would have wrote hypothesis 1 describing them as "a group of curious government agents" instead of "UFO believers" trying to find out the truth. Besides that being a loaded term, I think these are men motivated more by scientific curiosity, and the pursuit of knowledge, than faith.

One of my reasons for not yet discarding that hypothesis is based on your own conclusion that Kit Green is still a company man, and his research is still funded by government connections. And who says Kit Green says John Alexander, and others. I don't think they would disclose the "truth," because if it exists in some documented form in government it's surely highly classified, and disclosing it would not only be illegal but against "company" philosophy. I believe, for example, that John Alexander for many years even refused to admit he was part of this group when asked about it.

I haven't had time to read Mirage Men yet, the book where you quoted that Kit Green passage from, but based on the reviews I've read, and on what some researchers have commented about it is, that the authors concluded there was little if anything to the UFO phenomenon, and it was most likely all created for counterintelligence purposes. So, apparently, despite what Kit Green — including the passage you quoted — and others told them, they seem to have been unconvinced about an alien aspect to UFOs.

But I think it's important to stress that people like Green and Alexander never claimed to have seen the truth, nor have they published or disseminated documents purporting to be the truth about the UFO phenomenon. What they say is their opinions and mere possibilities. That's my interpretation of their position. Whether their opinions mimic what the truth actually is — again, assuming it's documented somewhere in government — I don't know, but I think whatever information they now share with the public is not based on any conclusive classified information they found in government.

Rather, I think they found bits and pieces of information in various government agencies pointing to something of substance but unknown behind the UFO phenomenon.

This is all just my opinion and interpretation of this information, of course.



edit on 31-8-2012 by Quaesitor because: (no reason given)



reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 09:40 AM by Sublimecraft
reply to post by The GUT


S&F GUT

This is me just letting you know I always look forward to your posts like a kid in a candy shop mate.

Like AutOmatic, I hear ya, and will definitely pass this (and other posts of yours) on to those genuine seekers who are curious but confused.

Keep it coming bud......can't wait for the next installment




reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 10:12 AM by Quaesitor
Originally posted by greyer
It kind of sent a chill down my spine when William Cooper said that what the inside does not want us to know is that aliens can control mass amounts of people through religion, magic, and the occult.

In my opinion there is nothing useful in what Bill Cooper claimed, and if he had any truthful information it was merely by chance, i.e. repeating disinformation that might have contained some truthful but minor pieces of information.

The Aviary was behind the show UFO Cover-Up Live

I disagree with this assessment. The people in charge of the counterintelligence operation that targeted Paul Bennewitz were the ones behind UFO Cover-Up Live, and they were not the same as "the Aviary."

The Aviary was just a group of curious government agents trying to find out, through their government and intelligence sources and means, for themselves, the truth about UFOs. Most of them weren't even aware they were in this so called Aviary, since it was a codename given to them by Bill Moore and Jamie Shandera to talk about them in their communications.

Doty played "Falcon" in the show but according to Greg Bishop the real "Falcon," and Doty's boss, was OSS and CIA veteran Harry Rositzke. These people had nothing to do with the Aviary, at least that we know of.


EDIT:
I should elaborate and clarify that even though Moore gave all his contacts bird codenames, my interpretation is that people like Kit Green, John Alexander and Ron Pandolfi — usually accepted as the core of the Aviary — weren't active participants, or at all, in the counterintelligence operation targeting Bennewitz. And those behind the CI operation were the ones behind UFO Cover-Up Live.



edit on 31-8-2012 by Quaesitor because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 10:52 AM by Eidolon23
Originally posted by The GUT


'But, if there is a condition that is threatening to the social structure - like the idea that the aliens are here and they are taking our babies, or that God hates people of a certain creed or colour - and if people who believe in that kind of delusion band together, they can end up encouraging each other to get a lot sicker, or they strap on belts and make themselves human bombs. So we have to know how to deal with these people and how to prevent them from being dangerous to others.


Oh Doctor, are you implying that what is happening w/ Islamic extremists will happen w/ groups of UFO aficionados? That how we feel and think about UFOs is somehow, well, religious in nature? Funny thing about that, Doc.

I'd like to point out that we have an abysmal success rate defusing those human bombs in the Mid-East, so yeah. If you are right about how certain subsets of the population might react to disclosure (and I don't think you are), maybe we should get our neutralization measures hammered out before then.

'So, what do we do? There are studies on both sides of the problem. Some show that people will go crazy and jump of bridges when they're presented with this information.


I'd give my eye teeth to see that study, but somehow I very much doubt it exists.

"If you were to give them the core story right off the bat, they'd get sick, so you do it slowly over ten or twenty years.You put out a bunch of movies, a bunch of books, a bunch of stories, a bunch of Internet memes about reptilian aliens eating our children, about all the crazy stuff that we've seen recently in Serpo. Then one day you say, "Hey, all that stuff is nonsense, relax, it's not that bad, you don't have to worry, the reality is this..." - and then you give them the real story."


Goddammit, despite your best attempts to keep us all stalled developmentally, we aren't a nation of five-year-olds. You're so concerned about the crazies coming out of the woodwork w/ this UFO stuff? Well, I have some concerns of my own: sometimes it seems to me that any wingnut w/ a Master's can nab a job as a spook. In fact, mental instability seems to be one of the chief hiring criteria.

When I see the sort of noise spun up around this topic, I find am able to pull a pattern from it. There certainly are Americans who are scared witless and behaving in a bizarre and disconcerting fashion, and they're the same guys who have decided that the American public is just too widdle to deal with disclosure.
edit on 31-8-2012 by Eidolon23 because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 12:42 PM by The GUT
Originally posted by IsaacKoi
(1) I would not assume that all members of The Aviary had the same motivation(s).

Hello, IsaacKoi and thank you for weighing in. I don't necessarily attribute the same motivations to all the so-called and alleged Aviary members. The direction I'm going with Col. Alexander certainly diverges from that of Dr. Green. Though at times it remains concatenate on a few levels.

(2) I don't think your posts above result justify a view that either Dr. Green or Col. John Alexander have been shown to have gone "rogue" or "dump on their allegiances and continued fees".

I'm sure I wasn't clear enough, but I'm attempting to demonstrate the exact opposite: I believe that Green & Alexander remain tied to the hip of the intelligence apparatus, and anything they do that has national security implications, has a higher-up stamp of approval on it.

In your research, I assume from this thread and your prior posts on ATS that you've read both "The Mirage Men" and "Project Beta" - but have you also read some of the books on remote viewing which heavily feature some of the members of the Aviary and give an insight into their personalities? If not, I'd be happy to recommend a couple of the relevant books.

Yes I've read those you mention and as far as remote viewing--only what could be gleaned from The Men Who Stare at Goats and brief comments by Vallee in Forbidden Science II and various web stuff. Please do suggest, either here or in u2u, any books you think would help me to understand personalities, loyalties, and machinations better.

We can certainly agree on that. The possible motives for some people making these waters so murky is, however, a point on which different views can reasonably be held.

Since we're not talking about UFOs per se, and since you've had a long interest in some of these folk, maybe you could give some of your thoughts on the matter?

For instance, Kit Green's comments in Mirage Men. I'd say that he didn't make them from some sick sense of humor. I'd also proffer he wouldn't betray his intelligence background and connections in any way. I'd further venture then, that there's much deception and misdirection in his comment.

edit on 31-8-2012 by The GUT because: (no reason given)


reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 01:26 PM by StalkerSolent
Originally posted by The GUT
The initial questions raised might find some of the Aviary elements falling into all the categories. But if you, like me, find it highly unlikely that either Dr. Green or Col. John Alexander would go rogue and dump on their allegiances and continued fees as "consultants," then I think we can safely remove two from the list in regards to their main motivations:

1.) They are UFO believers who in their high-clearance careers have heard rumors and have subsequently tried to determine for themselves what the government is hiding in regards to UFOs.

2.) They know the truth and are attempting, out of goodwill, or as part of official disclosure, to get the info out to the public.

3.) They are involved in ufological deception for their own murky purposes apart from any intelligence agency directives.

4.) They are tied to the hip with intelligence factions and their prime directive(s) include ufological deception.

If you find that line of thinking valid, which side do you fall on?

If not, how do you see it?

Col. Alexander, his current connections to intelligence, and why I think he's a true-blue company man coming soon.


Just a couple general thoughts that I think are important when discussing the US Government and UFOs. Almost invariably, these discussions will end up with someone using the phase "the government," which I feel is an oversimplification.

I think we should be careful in assuming that "intelligence factions" act as a coordinated collective. Even within individual agencies, there are factions and people--not necessarily operating as rogues--who operate according to their own agenda. So, although the CIA (for instance) might have no official "prime directives" that are oriented towards deception, that doesn't prevent a couple of people from getting together and using their extensive knowledge to put their own spin on things.

Frequently, I see Pentagon or military officials cited anonymously in the media. I wonder how many of them were authorized to do so by higher-ups, perhaps in pursuit of a certain agenda, perhaps even an agenda that is completely contradictory to the stated purpose of the unit, or the stated policy as laid down by Washington.

All this to say, it's dangerous to assume that agencies act as a homogeneous whole, much less the US Government. I'm looking forward to reading the rest of your thread. I've got my own theories on the US Government's involvement in the UFO phenomena, but they're pretty broad, and I don't know enough about Green and Alexander to comment authoritatively on them.


reply posted on 31-8-2012 @ 01:34 PM by flashtrum
Originally posted by Druscilla
reply to post by The GUT


Wonderful post so far.
Neurophysiological science has some important applications that can benefit many, as well as have uses in less than reputable practices.

For the good, grounds can be gained regarding Alzheimer's treatment among other pursuits, especially where stem cell research developments come into play.
Additionally, somewhat on the Mengele side of things, advancements could result in a new and smarter you.

On the downside, we get into programming and control.
There's already a number of social and media mechanisims in place and pervasive in Western culture for the generalized control, and influence of populations and groups.
Much of this can be seen with the prevalence of social networks. Influence the groups through memes, manufactured popular opinion, customized advertising, media stories, and you essentially own your own human bot-net.

Human-animal chimeras are already a reality. We manufacture mice with human genes (most common), pigs with human genes, and other animals for research purposes.
These animals don't exhibit phenotypical traits, or look human in any way. Their genes are just modified such that they're more human from a cellular biological perspective in reaction to drugs to better gauge reactions and side effects when actual human trials begin.
Mice are a good choice with chimeras because of their rapid development and short lifespans.
If we could do the same with fruit flies to any success, it would be done, but, there's some key differences between insect and mammal that make this impractical.

Some chimeras you've probably heard about are the glow in the dark cats that were modified with jellyfish DNA.





You make valid points. However - if the military can weaponize something, they will. Whether it's our military or someone else's, it's a safe bet that the science is being used for nefarious purposes.
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