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IAEA: Iran doubles underground nuclear capacity

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posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 03:19 PM
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reply to post by waveydavey
 


That was then, this is now.

History has a way of repeating itself.

Persia was once a great power.
Russia was once a great power.
France was once a great power.
Germany once a great power.
Britian once a great power.
Rome was once a great power.

etc, etc....

One thing is for sure though. They all want to be again what they once were.

It's the US's turn now, and like those before her, she'll more than likely fall as well.

And the cycle repeats.




posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by GarrusVasNormandy
 


Is a source from the UN good enough? Just shout out if you need help with the big words.

The Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT)



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 04:21 PM
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reply to post by CALGARIAN
 


Good for them. I do not recognize any fairness in negating Iran nuclear capability while preserving Israel nuclear capability. Even if I was afraid of a nuclear Iran I would counter that by getting a few bucks by selling nuclear tech to Saudi Arabia, in any case the nuclear genie (literally) is out of the bottle, after Pakistan got the capability it is only a matter of time for it to spread, any noise is only a delaying tactic to prepare for the first nuclear terrorist assault and the downfall of the large urban centers around the world, after that happens nations will start to behave or urban life will be no more (leading probably to a drastic ecological collapse). All because those in power have failed time and time again to work toward global human improvement.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 04:23 PM
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reply to post by Xcathdra
 





If you are going to play stickball in Brooklynn you better know the rules. Japan started the war, not the US. Japan also had a nuke program, just like the Nazis, and I guarantee if Japan or Germany got them first things today would be a lot different. We deployed nukes in order to force an end to the war instead of an invasion of the Japanese main islands that would have resulted in many more deaths than the nukes did.


Pretty ignorant about WW2 aren't you? Japan didn't start it America did with the sanctions we placed against Japan.

Sanctions on Japan in WWII


Sanctions to Japan started in 1939 when US denunciated Treaty of Commerce and Navigation. Since this treaty was central to the trade with US, due to the lapse of this treaty, Japan had a tremendous damage to its economy. Amount of import to Japan was limited by US, which made it really hard for Japan to keep fighting with China. Not only gasoline for airplane, but also other resources were cut down; scrap iron, ironstone, pig iron, copper, nickel, white vitriol and etc. Since Japan was heavily relied natural resources on US, this sanction meant depletion of Japan’s fuel supplies, and Japan was driven into a corner.


Also nukes were not needed to end the war we could have accepted their offer of surrender that they were giving. America used the bombs to throw a scare into the Russians.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 04:29 PM
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reply to post by miniatus
 


Yeah.. Russia offered it to them, at a price.
That makes them look guilty for a millisecond until you realize, maybe they just don't want to be reliant.

I am not convinced that they want a nuke, and even if they did, I flat out don't believe they would use it.
Actually I would bet all my money that they would never use it unless someone attacked them first.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by buster2010
Pretty ignorant about WW2 aren't you? Japan didn't start it America did with the sanctions we placed against Japan.

Not at all.. That would be you. Why did the US take those actions? Because of their military activities prior to the US enterance into the war. Japan made the decision to go to war and then they made the decision to attack the US.

They got what they deserved and the result was their own doing. Feel free to continue to blame the US for everything though.. It seems to be a reoccurruing theme of yours.



Originally posted by buster2010
Also nukes were not needed to end the war we could have accepted their offer of surrender that they were giving. America used the bombs to throw a scare into the Russians.

Speaking of being ignorant about history....

Japan never made peace overatures to the US. Japan made peace overatures to Russia in hopes of using them as a mediator between Japan and the United States. The conditions Japan set was not going to happen. As a matter of fact the peace overature to the Russians came just prior to Russia declaring war on Japan (as they agreed to do at a previous summit with the US / GB once Germany was defeated.

Japan started the war, not the US.
Japan is to blame for the use of nukes, not the US.
Japan had every opprotunity to surrender / end hostilities at any point and they refused.

Their culture / mindset at the time was to fight to the last man, which included their civilian population should an invasion of the mainland occur. So while one can argue nukes were not needed they need to take into account that an invasion was going to cost many more lives than dropping 2 bombs.

Iran has the same mindset the Japanese had during WWII. It will be their undoing and the only ones to blame will be the government of Iran.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow

Actually I would bet all my money that they would never use it unless someone attacked them first.


That's the threat. They will be attacked, unless their leadership steps down I am convinced (even if Nuclear Programme is abandoned 100%)



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 06:02 PM
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Ahhh, the "Iran never invaded anyone in hundreds of years" cliche has been used already. Yeah, Iran are so peaceful that they just give rockets and cash to Hezbollah as a way of saying, "OH NO! don't use them and be peaceful. DON'T KILL ANYONE!"

Must be great having a proxy militant group to do your dirty work, that way people with their head in the sand can say "Iran never invaded anyone, so the MUST be the good guys", even though year after year we hear someone like Ahmadinejad or Khomeini threatening to end Israel, or destroy the Zionist regime, etc etc...

Muslims believe that the 13th Imam will destroy their version of the Antichrist, and seen as the view of Iran, a Muslim country, is that NATO are the bad guys, that this is foretold that someone will stop them and the world will convert to Islam afterwards. So destroying Israel isn't a bad thing for them in their eyes, so I wouldn't be too sure about betting against them trying to develop nukes (which they probably are doing), to take out Israel.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by Xcathdra

Originally posted by waveydavey
Seriously who cares anymore? I don't care what Iran has or has not got, they haven't attacked anybody ever.
Incorrect - Iran supports Hamas / Hezzbullah who attack Israel. Secondly if you research Iran going way back you will find they have attacked others.

Israel kills Iranian scientists.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 07:37 PM
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reply to post by buster2010
 


I wasn't saying Wikipedia isn't trustworthy... I was saying the exact opposite, it just sounded funny to me that in another related discussion about Iran/Israel you dismissed my source (wikipedia) in response to my posts, but then you posted it here when it suited your point of view.

Just a friendly advice, if you are going to dismiss what other people say or think about a specific issue based on their poor sources for information, at least be sure to be coherent about it and not use them yourself.


*Sorry for the short off-topic*



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 07:45 PM
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October suprise, here we come. Just in time for my birthday it's ARMAGEDDON!!!!



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 10:21 PM
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Atomic Bomb in the hands of Iran or other middle eastern countries would be a fact that gives shivers to the geopolitics stability around the world. Got to stop this before it happens.



posted on Aug, 30 2012 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by waveydavey
Seriously who cares anymore? I don't care what Iran has or has not got, they haven't attacked anybody ever. Yet the world police, USA, the ONLY nation to EVER use Nuclear weapons in ANGER has the gall to dictate to anybody who should or should not have these weapons. Please, I'm not anti American I'm anti US Government.
Idiots.


Completely agree. The U.S. is always so quick to point the finger at others...when so few people look in the mirror and think about how many nuclear weapons or other WMDs the U.S. currently has. Hypocrites. They can have what they want.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 12:24 AM
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Nevermind.
edit on 31-8-2012 by GogoVicMorrow because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 12:41 AM
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Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy
He also urged Iran “to provide access to the Parchin site,” where the IAEA believes suspicious testing has been carried out.


That is exactly what I expected. Parchin is a military installation. Therefore there is no violation of the NPT, if they don't grant access. Can they ask Iran to allow inspectors to access it? Yes, but they can't expect to be granted access or threaten Iran with war, period!

The West, Israel and the UN have to back off.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy
I do agree that Iran isn't forced to disclose any military technology to outsiders.

But that's what the IAEA is exactly for. A peaceful organization that studies and analyzes any case (nation, if you prefer) and makes a respected assessment of how a nuclear program is being developed.


Their job is to check if Iran complies with the NPT, nothing more, nothing less.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyI'm not saying Iran is developing nuclear weapons in that facility, or any other. But there is reason to be suspicious when Iran is blocking any attempt to see certain key places.


You are using the plural (places) again. What places are those? So far you have only mentioned Parchin.

Again if I was Iran I wouldn't let my enemies access military installations and expose my military capabilities and secrets either. It is completely understandable, especially if you consider the fact that Iran accuses the IAEA to have given secret information about their nuclear scientists to the US and Israel, and we all know what happened to most of these nuclear experts.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyBut if Iran wants to walk out of this with their head in one piece, I think the most sane and reasonable thing to do is to work something out that suits all people involved, them and the U.N./IAEA.


In that case we don't need the NPT. Either it is the same for everybody or we abolish it.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by ALF88
 



Parchin is a military installation. Therefore there is no violation of the NPT, if they don't grant access.


You are correct.

But if there is evidence that the possibility of Iran using that facility to pursue nuclear weapons, then Iran should allow access to it. Like I said multiple time, the terms of that access can be negotiated.

What matters here is that if you agree with something like the NPT, you must do everything in your power to show your intentions. Iran has secrets, and has the right to governmental privacy. But shouldn't we support transparency? I'm not talking about Iran, but to all countries.

In my opinion, if you are going to participate in something like the NPT, then you should be aware that the members will make huge amounts of pressure in case there is the smallest amount of suspicion.


Can they ask Iran to allow inspectors to access it? Yes, but they can't expect to be granted access or threaten Iran with war, period!

The West, Israel and the UN have to back off.


I disagree that Iran should negate all types of access, but I agree they don't need to allow full access. Like I said in my previous reply to your post, it's as simple as covering sensitive information but allowing inspectors to search for radiation evidence.

In another thread I was speaking with several members about radiation detection technology, and we have tech that is able to detect radiation from space. I'm sure that the IAEA has measurement tools that allow them to search an area - a bunker, storage units, crates - without having to see what kind of weapons or explosives are being developed.

It's a matter of giving something to them in return for full cooperation from the whole agency.

As for Israel, although some people paint me as pro-Israel, I don't support their offensive rhetoric. In my opinion, Israel is only in IAEA with no-member or non-signatory status, which takes away their credibility and power to influence IAEA decisions.

Israel words and stand only makes the whole issue worst. It's like background noise when people are trying to solve thing's through negotiation.


Their job is to check if Iran complies with the NPT, nothing more, nothing less.


Yes, but you should be aware that complying with the NPT means no pursuit of nuclear weapons. They have to check facilities in order to know if they are actually complying with the NPT or not. As sad as it may be, we can't trust the word of governments or leaders...


You are using the plural (places) again. What places are those? So far you have only mentioned Parchin.


I apologize, that was my mistake for not clearing that up.

What I mean is that Iran blocks access to key locations inside bigger facilities. Someone (can't remember which member) compared it to allowing police to search your house, but deny access to a closet.

Iran does allow access to all surface facilities, or has allowed access after further negotiation. But they deny access to certain parts of the facilities. One of which was suspected to have high-velocity explosives.

I'm sure you are aware of the recent buzz about the clean-up job.


Again if I was Iran I wouldn't let my enemies access military installations and expose my military capabilities and secrets either.


Why? I don't understand that logic, with all due respect.

Iran doesn't have anything that the U.S. or any allied country doesn't have better or in larger numbers. If you are referring to military power assessment, then the CIA, Mossad and other intelligence agencies have plenty of resources to know exactly that.

However, we are talking about specific spots in a building that could have illegal nuclear material. Military power is very easy to understand. The U.S. and the Soviet Union did it to each-other for decades.


(...)especially if you consider the fact that Iran accuses the IAEA to have given secret information about their nuclear scientists to the US and Israel (...) 


Yes, but why are you dismissing as invalid the accusations of Iran hiding stuff from the IAEA? I'm not trying to be offensive or disrespectful, but you seem to have double standards.

As we debate further, it appears that you believe in one side, but refuse what the other says. In that way, we are not talking about the truth or being unbiased.


In that case we don't need the NPT. Either it is the same for everybody or we abolish it.


How can you talk about freedom and right's to privacy, and then impose a treaty to the world?

It's voluntary. Which makes Iran even more responsible to cooperate and facilitate the investigations. If Iran doesn't want IAEA to study them, then they should leave. And leave the US and Western dollars they received at the IAEA when they leave. Many people often forget about that...



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 10:02 AM
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All this legal and political discussions and alternatives are useless. Iran should be made to be known and it already has been, that it cannot have a nuclear bomb. Beyond that, its capabilities of making one will be forcefully taken out and curtailed. This fearful prospect of Iran or other middle eastern countries having nukes is equal to Hitler and Nazis coming to power in Germany in 1933. If world does not act now, it will pay a huge price later.



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 12:11 PM
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Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy
But if there is evidence that the possibility of Iran using that facility to pursue nuclear weapons, then Iran should allow access to it. Like I said multiple time, the terms of that access can be negotiated.


There is no evidence and as Iran sticks to the NPT, there is no need for the IAEA to stick their nose in there.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyWhat matters here is that if you agree with something like the NPT, you must do everything in your power to show your intentions. Iran has secrets, and has the right to governmental privacy. But shouldn't we support transparency? I'm not talking about Iran, but to all countries.


Every country has secrecy to a certain extent.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyIn my opinion, if you are going to participate in something like the NPT, then you should be aware that the members will make huge amounts of pressure in case there is the smallest amount of suspicion.


Why don't they do this with all countries. Saudi Arabia probably got nuclear weapons already, they helped Pakistan to get theirs.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyIn another thread I was speaking with several members about radiation detection technology, and we have tech that is able to detect radiation from space. I'm sure that the IAEA has measurement tools that allow them to search an area - a bunker, storage units, crates - without having to see what kind of weapons or explosives are being developed.


They don't have evidence.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyAs for Israel, although some people paint me as pro-Israel, I don't support their offensive rhetoric. In my opinion, Israel is only in IAEA with no-member or non-signatory status, which takes away their credibility and power to influence IAEA decisions.


I never thought that you are pro Israel and by the way I am not anti Israel either.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyYes, but you should be aware that complying with the NPT means no pursuit of nuclear weapons. They have to check facilities in order to know if they are actually complying with the NPT or not. As sad as it may be, we can't trust the word of governments or leaders...


Again, they have no evidence.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyBut they deny access to certain parts of the facilities. One of which was suspected to have high-velocity explosives.


Which facilities?


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyI'm sure you are aware of the recent buzz about the clean-up job.


The buzz is always coming from people, that I don't trust from my bed to the loo. Sorry.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyWhy? I don't understand that logic, with all due respect.


Ask the United States what they are doing at Area 51 and Groom Lake. Do you think they will open all their books? There is more danger coming from those to places for world peace than the rest of the world together.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandyIran doesn't have anything that the U.S. or any allied country doesn't have better or in larger numbers. If you are referring to military power assessment, then the CIA, Mossad and other intelligence agencies have plenty of resources to know exactly that.


That is not the point and you know it. Iran has a right to keep their military installations secret, just like every other country as well.


Originally posted by GarrusVasNormandy
It's voluntary. Which makes Iran even more responsible to cooperate and facilitate the investigations. If Iran doesn't want IAEA to study them, then they should leave. And leave the US and Western dollars they received at the IAEA ...


Do you think the pressure on Iran will get less if they leave the NPT?



edit on 31-8-2012 by ALF88 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 12:45 PM
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Cut the BS already.

" Iran has a right to keep their military installations secret, just like every other country as well"

What 'military secret' does a supposed IRANIAN PEACEFUL NUCLEAR POWER STATION possess, or even considered a 'military installation' that IAEA safety inspectors, world's nuke safety watchmen, are not allowed FULL ACCESS to check on?

Unless of course...it is....more than what it was supposed to be?
edit on 31-8-2012 by SeekerofTruth101 because: (no reason given)



posted on Aug, 31 2012 @ 01:22 PM
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reply to post by ALF88
 



There is no evidence


There is evidence. The only discussion that comes out of it - again - is what people accept as credible evidence or not.

That is not for me to decide, since I'm not neither a nuclear physicist nor a nuclear warhead expert.


and as Iran sticks to the NPT


Iran developing and enriching their own uranium isn't a NTP breach. That was never put into question by any government or agency involved.

However, Iran has been asked several times to halt - not fully stop, nor completely dismiss it - their enrichment activities. This was mostly done in order to allow IAEA if there is any concrete violation, and void any suspicion of nuclear weapons development.

It was meant as a pause, not as a prohibition.

Iran has disobeyed that order, and continues to defy it.

This attitude has caused severe consequences, the most relevant being expressed in this paragraph of a European Union resolution:



B. whereas the report further takes note of the fact that Iran continues its nuclear enrichment and reprocessing activities, which it is obliged to suspend under several Security Council Resolutions; whereas however the Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty (NPT) Treaty as such does not rule out enrichment activities by its state parties and whereas Iran’s enrichment program is therefore not in breach with the NPT;

C. whereas in breach of its obligation under the NPT, Iran has clandestinely constructed an enrichment facility at Fordo close to Qom and only notified the IAEA of its existence long after its construction started; and whereas such secretive approach further undermines the trust in Iranian assurances about the purely civil character of its nuclear program;


Source (EU document database)

I pasted point B to further explain that I'm not arguing Iran is in breach of the NPT for pursuing their own fuel.

But point C portrays my argument that Iran does jeopardize the feeling of trust it must have to continue their nuclear program without foreign interference.


there is no need for the IAEA to stick their nose in there.


I'm not painting Iran as the same example as I'm about to use, but it's just a historical comparison.

Prior to World War 2 Germany was prohibited or pursuing offensive military vessels for it's navy. Most importantly, battleships - which were considered at the time in the same category as Aircraft Carriers are in our days - that were feared by international community, along with U-boats.

Germany, under the Nazi Regime, didn't breach the armistice agreement. They simply developed new technology and new vessels that didn't literally breach the armistice. Their solution? Build smaller, lighter (without heavy armor) battleships, that wouldn't have a water displacement large enough to breach the agreement.

Those battleships were later used against several western nations.

Nazi Germany in the 30's didn't breach any agreement. But they did destroy the relationship of trust. The same type of relationship of trust that Iran is destroying by adopting secretive attitudes and actions.


Every country has secrecy to a certain extent.


Yes, and the right to do so. Also, any country is entitled to a defensive force (at least).

That is not the same as having secrets that can pose a threat.


Why don't they do this with all countries. Saudi Arabia probably got nuclear weapons already, they helped Pakistan to get theirs.


Source?


Saudi Arabia is not known to have a nuclear weapons program. From an official and public standpoint, Saudi Arabia has been an opponent of nuclear weapons in the Middle East, having signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, and is a member of the coalition of countries demanding a Nuclear-Weapon-Free Zone in the Middle East. Studies of nuclear proliferation have not identified Saudi Arabia as a country of concern.


source


They don't have evidence.


In your opinion. Mine is the opposite of yours... I consider what the IAEA states as being "suspicious", credible enough to have doubts of my own.


I never thought that you are pro Israel and by the way I am not anti Israel either.


Thank you for the consideration and keeping a polite conversation.


Which facilities?


The same we are talking about before. Parchin.

Iran can't give credibility to IAEA saying that they will state they are in compliance, and then say they can't go to Parchin because they are Western spies. They can't have it both ways to suit their arguments...

[ran out of space, continues next post]






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