Stay Out Of HELL.

reply to post by EvilSadamClone


"the woman who followed Anton to his deathbed only to be turned Christian watching and hearing him Cry out to God for mercy..He begged God to let him live long enough to repent,please don't let me die yet..i can't go there Please let me live long enough to repent..Save me ...those were his words just some of them as he drifted in and out of Hell..and then all the way into hell"

reply to post by Cuervo


off topic...
Sarcasm noted
Yes,I am fat and any "warning" about my fat is taken into consideration
before I ignore the warning. I feel like baking a batch of cookies,yum,yum!

On topic...The same as above with the following changes.When you are
"warned" about your possible future abode being located in the most desolate
regions in creation.It is your choice to consider the "warning" or to ignore it.

The problem with a lot of christians is they keep going after the same people
time and time again.They seem to think it is their mission to save a certain
person.Christians are suppose to spread the gospel,if they are not received,
they are suppose to shake the dust from their feet and move along.Now, that
person they witnessed to might not have accepted their testimony.Maybe,sometime
in the future this person might be saved by another person telling them about
the gospel,this is called spreading seeds.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I do think it is possible to create a false understanding of who Jesus is, then worshiping that, and how that would represent a form of idolatry.

You just answered your own question right here.

ETA: This is a good read and explains why I think Jesus has been turned into a false idol. Link

reply to post by EvilSadamClone

A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked.

9. Mark 14:51-52

That was probably symbolic of how Jesus, through his own death, would find freedom from those who would try to make him a captive.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

You just answered your own question right here.

ETA: This is a good read and explains why I think Jesus has been turned into a false idol. Link

Are you promoting Islam, or do you just think they are the best at refuting Christianity?
And why do you feel compelled to promote anti-Christianity?
If you believe in reincarnation, don't you think that if Christianity is wrong, then people can just find that out in their next life?
So what is your purpose in all this negativity towards the church if none of it makes any difference in the end anyway?
The New Testament is the general basis of Christianity and it does teach that only through Jesus, including his life, and death, and his current ministry, is anyone saved.
Now the page you linked to asks how is it one can believe salvation is only through Jesus when he is recorded in the Gospel as claiming that you can enter the kingdom by keeping the spirit of the law of love.
That is because one can only keep those laws with the help of God's spirit which is only made available through Christ, which involves what he did in his life and death and what he is doing now.
No one call adequately keep the laws on their own, without Jesus, to gain eternal life. That is what the NT teaches, and it is no misinterpretation for the church to believe those things.
If you feel the NT is in error, then on what do you base any of your beliefs about Jesus since only through the NT do we know about Jesus, including the Koran, which has to be using the NT as its source for knowledge of Jesus.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus says nothing about having to believe he died on the cross in order to reach heaven, that is what the CHURCH teaches, not what Jesus said. You can ignore that fact all you want but that does not make it any less true.

You are so caught up in the dogma that the church has placed around Jesus that you refuse to accept anything other than that dogma.

Also, where did you get the notion that I am promoting Islam? Is that your way of trying to label me as a heathen or heretic or whatever else? I don't conform to any religion, much less Islam.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

Jesus says nothing about having to believe he died on the cross in order to reach heaven, that is what the CHURCH teaches, not what Jesus said. You can ignore that fact all you want but that does not make it any less true.

There is a belief that Jesus' death was necessary as part of his accomplishment here on earth as the man, Jesus. A lack of belief in that fundamental part of what and who Jesus is and was, would be symptomatic of a general lack of faith. The fact is that, when Jesus starting talking about things in terms of his death, he lost a lot of followers. We don't want to be like those who turned their backs on Jesus.

You are so caught up in the dogma that the church has placed around Jesus that you refuse to accept anything other than that dogma.

I don't belong to a dogmatic Church. What you are calling "dogma" is just the general characteristics of Christian belief.

Also, where did you get the notion that I am promoting Islam? Is that your way of trying to label me as a heathen or heretic or whatever else? I don't conform to any religion, much less Islam.

Just that you linked to an Islamic web site to have people read how to refute Christianity.

reply to post by jmdewey60


General characteristics don't always make up truth. The notion that you must believe Jesus died on the cross in order to get into heaven is a concept made up by the church. We all know (I would hope) just how corrupt the church is.

It is dogma because it was instituted after-the-fact and is only there to control how people think, it is the main power structure the church has placed on its followers, and unfortunately those who despise the church also hold on to the dogma.

Also, geocities is not an Islamic site.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

General characteristics don't always make up truth. The notion that you must believe Jesus died on the cross in order to get into heaven is a concept made up by the church. We all know (I would hope) just how corrupt the church is.

If you mean by "the church", the Catholic Church, then there is a problem with that institution and its dogma.
Christian belief, meaning what all Christians hold in common, would include the belief that Jesus' death was a necessary part of the plan of salvation. "Dogma" would come into play if you were to take that as a starting point, and take it a step further and say that if you do not believe in all the details involved in Jesus then you are not saved. You do not need to be dogmatic to come to the same conclusion. It is just logical that if one picks and chooses what to believe and what not to believe about the Gospel of Christ according to the NT, then that person has a very limited chance of achieving salvation.

It is dogma because it was instituted after-the-fact and is only there to control how people think, it is the main power structure the church has placed on its followers, and unfortunately those who despise the church also hold on to the dogma.

I think you have a funny idea of what those are exactly and you should in my opinion do some research on the NT, at least to the point to where you can articulate exactly where those points of departure are, from NT teachings, to dogma.

Also, geocities is not an Islamic site.

geocities is a web hosting company and not the owner of the site you linked to. The owners do not Identify themselves but the content gives away their identity as being Muslims attempting to refute Christian's position on Muslims not being saved.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
If you mean by "the church", the Catholic Church, then there is a problem with that institution and its dogma.
Christian belief, meaning what all Christians hold in common, would include the belief that Jesus' death was a necessary part of the plan of salvation. "Dogma" would come into play if you were to take that as a starting point, and take it a step further and say that if you do not believe in all the details involved in Jesus then you are not saved. You do not need to be dogmatic to come to the same conclusion. It is just logical that if one picks and chooses what to believe and what not to believe about the Gospel of Christ according to the NT, then that person has a very limited chance of achieving salvation.

What I mean by the church is any denomination of mainstream Christianity, whether it be Baptist, Catholic, Protestant, etc. One of the main things they all have in common is the idea of salvation through Jesus' death. It is dogma because the church put that concept in place after Jesus died in order to control people and make them feel like they had to go to church and donate to the church in order for them to get to heaven because they were the "authority" on heaven.

I think you have a funny idea of what those are exactly and you should in my opinion do some research on the NT, at least to the point to where you can articulate exactly where those points of departure are, from NT teachings, to dogma.

There is nothing in the bible that states anything about Jesus saying you must believe he died on the cross in order to get to heaven, so there is nothing to research on the subject. I think you are the one who needs to study it and come out with a verse that states otherwise.

The link I provided contains verses that prove what I say, if you choose to ignore it then that is on you.

geocities is a web hosting company and not the owner of the site you linked to. The owners do not Identify themselves but the content gives away their identity as being Muslims attempting to refute Christian's position on Muslims not being saved.

It doesn't matter what their religious affiliation is, facts are facts and the verses provided within the link support those facts. They are ripped straight out of the bible and nowhere does Jesus say you have to believe he died on the cross. If you could provide a verse that states otherwise then I will concede.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

General characteristics don't always make up truth. The notion that you must believe Jesus died on the cross in order to get into heaven is a concept made up by the church. We all know (I would hope) just how corrupt the church is.

It is dogma because it was instituted after-the-fact and is only there to control how people think, it is the main power structure the church has placed on its followers, and unfortunately those who despise the church also hold on to the dogma.

Also, geocities is not an Islamic site.

There are false and distorted views in all Christian denominations...(Stay Focused Just On The Text...The Written Word...Base Your Judgment on that alone...Truth Will Bear Witness...Only Through The Holy Spirit...Everyone Has A Different Backround...The Process...Is One To One...Between The Person and God. Shalom

reply to post by ResearchEverything777


So basically take its word for it and never question it while ignoring all of its inconsistencies?

No thanks, I'd prefer to keep my free will instead of submitting to words within a book without question. I like to be intellectually free, not oppressed and psychologically enslaved.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

They are ripped straight out of the bible and nowhere does Jesus say you have to believe he died on the cross. If you could provide a verse that states otherwise then I will concede.

Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
John 20:29
Believe what? That he died and then was risen from the dead.
What you take to be the words of Jesus comes from the New Testament.
This is how you believe that you know what he said.
The NT says a lot of other things, such as what Paul in his letters said that had to do with salvation.
It is not "the church" that says these things but the Apostles.

Originally posted by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
reply to post by ResearchEverything777

 

So basically take its word for it and never question it while ignoring all of its inconsistencies?

No thanks, I'd prefer to keep my free will instead of submitting to words within a book without question. I like to be intellectually free, not oppressed and psychologically enslaved.

You Must Be Honest And Unbiased. The More You Receive God's Word...Then Your Spirit and Soul Will Truly...

...Be Free! Put It To The Test?!!

www.reasons.org...

www.theomatics.com...

www.kjvbible.org... "Rightly Dividing The Word" (IN CONTEXT)

TRUTH CAN'T BE DISPROVED.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Jesus also says that those who are poor in spirit are blessed as well.

Matthew 5:3
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

That has nothing to do with getting into heaven though, so I don't think that really has anything to do with what we're talking about in my opinion.

Paul was a huge figure in the persecution of Jesus' earlier disciples, so you should take his word with a grain of salt. He was one of the main players in setting up the church that has come to be today, which is corrupt. He is one of the key figures who corrupted Jesus' message in my opinion, so I do not put much faith in what he says and neither should you.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1

That has nothing to do with getting into heaven though . . .

Can you show me what part is a how-to on getting into heaven?
It isn't, and that was a rhetorical question, unless you really think it is, which you might.
When John has Jesus saying someone is blessed, then it is significant, seeing how he only has Jesus saying that twice.
Both times it is in a conditional statement, the other being 13:17
If you understand these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

which is Jesus saying if you understand what I am telling you to do, and you do them, then you will be blessed.
This goes along with your version of a how-to, where you believe and do, where in your mind it is some nebulous idea of a law. In 20:29, it is indirectly conditional without being explicitly so by the addition of a conditional indicator, but is implied, where the hypothetical persons spoken of could have not believed, but since they do, then they are blessed.
Matthew has Jesus saying blessed quite a few times and so the title of that sermon being the Beatitudes. Matthew is using the word in a different way than John does, where it is describing a situation people are in and that at some future time, that situation will be reversed and they will be happy about it. John seems to be indicating something more profound than just happiness.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Matthew 5:19
Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom
of heaven.

Nothing about believing in him here.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

Jesus said "What is written in the law? How do you read?"

And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself."

And he said to him, "You have answered right; do this, and you will live."

Nothing about believing in him there either.

So why does Jesus never mention that believing in him is your only ticket to heaven? That's the only way to get to heaven according to what the church teaches, so why doesn't he ever mention it?

So, another hell and eternal torture thread. Here's another perspective:

www.tentmaker.org...

Heaven, yes.

Hell, no.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1
Matthew 5:19
Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom
of heaven.

Nothing about believing in him here.

There is, if you see Jesus' statement as a polemic against Phariseeism. Where their "laws" were heavy, so to speak, being burdensome, and were pointed out by the Pharisees as being more important to keep than the "lesser" laws, the least of the commandments, again so to speak, at least in the eyes of who Jesus considered to be so many hypocrites, keeping what put on a great show of holiness while neglecting the really important things that affected other people and the things of the heart.
Now that is one big, long sentence but the point is that Jesus is setting out two paths before his "Sermon on the Mount" audience: follow the Pharisees in doing so much "busy work" that looks impressive, or follow him, doing things no one will notice accept by the poor who benefit from your goodness.
So Jesus is asking to believe in him, to enter the kingdom. At that time, in that culture, it would take faith to break away from the accepted norms under the religious leadership and to do what Jesus advises that will be rewarded in heaven, and not here on earth.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I honestly have no idea how you came to that conclusion. He is clearly talking about the 10 commandments and never even mentions Pharisees. Grasping at straws?