CC, I don't understand what you are trying to develop from this, could you please elaborate?

I just thought this would be an interesting article to share with those who are interested, and possibly see what the rebuttles are to the information contained in this document.

The article is too long to post, and would like to get input on it whatever that input may be.

So basically I was hoping to discuss several points within this article, someone will find something in there that will spark an opinion.

[edit on 13-10-2004 by chief_counsellor]

Well, not surprisingly, there is a part of it that is true, and a larger part that is not... mostly the commentary on our history is correct, it is much of what WE say... the commentary about masonry being a secret society, is, of course, not true, as is all the drivel about financial gain, egyptian origins, and then the rest, commentary on the ritual and its meanings are totally off target, incorrect, and typically inflamatory.

Other than that, did you have a point?

My point was to share the article with people, and I guess Masons will not agree with some of what is in there....but could you site specific examples of what your talking about..."inflammatory"?

This is from an online Catholic encyclopedia as you will have realized. This is the type of things that are promoted in the church. I would like to know what parts you believe are not true, and why.

Masonry is taken to be a secret society by many people, why do you think it's being discussed in a forum called "secret societies".

You gave me a general overview of your opinion Theron, but can you give me 1 or 2 specific examples, that way I can come to understand certain points that are promoted in something like an online Catholic encyclopedia, and what the Masonic stand is on those points.

First of all - masonry is not a secret society but a open society whit secret rituals and ceremonies. (at least in my country )

I live in a part of the world where the Catholic church newer had dominated.

In the Danish Frimason Order we have a lot of "Ministers" from the Danish National Church as members of the Order, so you know - no problemo

Speciall NOT whit the Catholic Church - i mean look at there past and how many other "mistakes" they have done.

Well, the:

I. Name and Definition;
II. Origin and Early History;

are essentially, correct to my understanding.

when the author speaks to religion, noting that the difference between the Operative and Speculative, is, essentially, that we do not see the RCC as the authority and look to our OWN view of the nature of g-d is also correct.

The radical contrast between the two types is obvious. While a Mason according to the old Constitution was above all obliged to be true to God and Church, avoiding heresies, his "religious" duties, according to the new type, are essentially reduced to the observation of the "moral law" practically summed up in the rules of "honour and honesty" as to which "all men agree". This "universal religion of Humanity" which gradually removes the accidental divisions of mankind due to particular opinions "or religious", national, and social "prejudices", is to be the bond of union among men in the Masonic society, conceived as the model of human association in general. "Humanity" is the term used to designate the essential principle of Masonry.

but of course, misses the point. It is not about a humanist approach to g-d, but an approach that is not essentially CATHOLIC, as is noted further in when the author quotes:

...Of the ancient Masons, it is no longer said that they were obliged to "be of the religion" but only "to comply with the Christian usages of each Country". The designation of the said "unsectarian" religion as the "ancient catholick" betrays the attempt to oppose this religion of "Humanity" to the Roman Catholic as the only true, genuine, and originally Catholic.

IV. PROPAGATION AND EVOLUTION OF MASONRY

is essentially correct, but in specifics is left wanting...

Note the following as a typical RCC style complaint:

...Hence rebellion by modern speculative Masonry is only disapproved when plots are directed against the peace and welfare of the nation. The brotherhood ought to disown the rebellion, but only in order to preserve the fraternity from annoyance by the civil authorities.

and this is a typical complaint. Masonry encourages a man to think for himself, and to seek that which HE sees as better, not what some authority somewhere determines for him. This, by the way, effectively demolishes the ridiculous argument that masonry tells its members what to do and what to think...

Then there is:

VI. INNER WORK OF FREEMASONRY: MASONIC SYMBOLISM AND OATHS

which section is so rife with errors and spin and lack of understanding that it is not even worth a surface rebuttal, but is incorrect in many instances. As a SMALL example, I offer the following, which is typical, a dose of truth mixed into a great lie.

The principal advantages of this symbolism, which is not peculiar to Freemasonry but refers to the mysteries and doctrines of all ages and of all factors of civilization, are the following: (1) As it is adaptable to all possible opinions, doctrines, and tastes, it attracts the candidate and fascinates the initiated. (2) It preserves the unsectarian unity of Freemasonry in spite of profound differences in religion, race, national feeling, and individual tendencies. (3) It sums up the theoretical and practical wisdom of all ages and nations in a universally intelligible language. (4) It trains the Mason to consider existing institutions, religious, political, and social, as passing phases of human evolution and to discover by his own study the reforms to be realized in behalf of Masonic progress, and the means to realize them. (5) It teaches him to see in prevailing doctrines and dogmas merely subjective conceptions or changing symbols of a deeper universal truth in the sense of Masonic ideals. (6) It allows Freemasonry to conceal its real purposes from the profane and even from those among the initiated...

Where #1 to 5 are factually correct, though spun to seem bad, and then #6 is thrown in which is so far outside the truth that it alone puts the rest of the statement into shadow. And this is far from the most eggregious of the offenses in this section.

another, simple example is found in the following statement:

...In view of the fact that the secrets of Masonry are unknown to the bulk of Masons, the oaths of secrecy taken on the Bible are all the more startling and unjustifiable

Really? Yet they offer no proof of this contention, which is again, typical of the strawman argument, and is circular in reasoning, supporting itself by its own conclusions. When rationally examined, it fails under the weight of its own falsehood...

and in the diatribe, we find the true agenda of the author:

The following are deemed the principal means: (1) To destroy radically by open persecution of the Church or by a hypocritical fraudulent system of separation between State and Church, all social influence of the Church and of religion, insidiously called "clericalism", and, as far as possible, to destroy the Church and all true, i.e., superhuman religion, which is more than a vague cult of fatherland and of humanity; (2) To laicize, or secularize, by a likewise hypocritical fraudulent system of "unsectarianism", all public and private life and, above all, popular instruction and education. "Unsectarianism" as understood by the Grand Orient party is anti-Catholic and even anti-Christian, atheistic, positivistic, or agnostic sectarianism in the garb of unsectarianism. Freedom of thought and conscience of the children has to be developed systematically in the child at school and protected, as far as possible, against all disturbing influences, not only of the Church and priests, but also of the children's own parents, if necessary, even by means of moral and physical compulsion. The Grand Orient party considers it indispensable and an infallibly sure way to the final establishment of the universal social republic and of the pretended world peace, as they fancy them, and of the glorious era of human solidarity and of unsurpassable human happiness in the reign of liberty and justice. [164]

Oh, those mean masons... they encourage their followers to think for themselves, to choise their own leaders, to chose their own religion and to find their own consciences... hmmm, the RCC has always been opposed to these things, prefering men instead, to follow the lead of their priests in determining these things...

There are MANY more examples, but I promised a succinct and superficial overview of the many wrongs in this document.





[edit on 10/14/04 by theron dunn]

One of the points of which you raise, and I can see where a certain conflict lies, is that the Catholic church upholds to be the one true faith, and freemasonry can not hold this to be true.

The epicenter of the authors arguments seems to show this "incompatibility" of sorts.

I think that there will never be reconcile with the Catholic church and freemasonry on this matter.

Masonry is not a predominantly Catholic organization, although there are Catholics that join masonry.

I wonder if there is a way to contact the author of this article, to see where he got his information on what he/she understands freemasonry to be.

Down the lines, there are things propegated by Catholic organizations and sects etc.. what have you, that are most likely based on ignorance and misunderstanding of masonry.

However, one point for sure, is that Masonry can not accept the Catholic faith as the one true faith established by Christ. Masonry accepts those of all faiths.

I don't see anything that can be done to remedy this situation. However, religion is not discussed in the lodge, and is one way to unify those of different faiths under one roof.

The Catholic church desires to evanglize, and spread it's the faith across the globe, as Christ said to preach to all nations.

So really, Catholicism and Masonry are at odds on this matter no? Masonry accepting all religions, Catholicism stating it is the one true religion.

Masonry and Catholicism will always be at odds then. Freemasons have stepped up to plate, when the Catholic church was gaining a lot of power (Garibaldi etc). Maybe this is why the church sees Masonry as a threat, because it is an organization that is able to hinder the jurisdiction under with it can hold authority or "power".

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
One of the points of which you raise, and I can see where a certain conflict lies, is that the Catholic church upholds to be the one true faith, and freemasonry can not hold this to be true.

As Freemasonry has no hold over its members religious beliefs this statement has no foundation.

I think that there will never be reconcile with the Catholic church and freemasonry on this matter.

That is up to the Catholic Church, clearly.

Down the lines, there are things propegated by Catholic organizations and sects etc.. what have you, that are most likely based on ignorance and misunderstanding of masonry.

Oh I think the Catholic Church has a in depth understanding of Freemasonry, however while the majority of Catholics are not concerned the vatican says no.

However, one point for sure, is that Masonry can not accept the Catholic faith as the one true faith established by Christ. Masonry accepts those of all faiths.

It can easily accept the Catholic Faith just not the dominance of one faith over all others.

The Catholic church desires to evanglize, and spread it's the faith across the globe, as Christ said to preach to all nations.

So really, Catholicism and Masonry are at odds on this matter no? Masonry accepting all religions, Catholicism stating it is the one true religion.

Well as above really , yes. But it is not for Freemasonry to dictate to anyone the rights and wrongs of Faith.

Masonry and Catholicism will always be at odds then. Freemasons have stepped up to plate, when the Catholic church was gaining a lot of power (Garibaldi etc). Maybe this is why the church sees Masonry as a threat, because it is an organization that is able to hinder the jurisdiction under with it can hold authority or "power".

The answer is in the hands of the Church, Catholics are welcome to join Freemasonry, It is the Papal Bull that says they should not. However as you have indicated many Catholics are Freemasons , and accept that is in contradiction to the vatican wishes.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The epicenter of the authors arguments seems to show this "incompatibility" of sorts.

I think that there will never be reconcile with the Catholic church and freemasonry on this matter.

Masonry is not a predominantly Catholic organization, although there are Catholics that join masonry....

...However, one point for sure, is that Masonry can not accept the Catholic faith as the one true faith established by Christ. Masonry accepts those of all faiths.....

...The Catholic church desires to evanglize, and spread it's the faith across the globe, as Christ said to preach to all nations.

So really, Catholicism and Masonry are at odds on this matter no? Masonry accepting all religions, Catholicism stating it is the one true religion.

I don't see the point here. New Advent is not an unbiased source.

Masonry does not discriminate against any religion and seems to have no "beef" with the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, has a problem with Masonry. You become a Freemason and you are excommunicated. Geez, even murderers can confess.
I want to know why they are afraid of some many groups and ideas. Perhaps they are afraid of losing control.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
One of the points of which you raise, and I can see where a certain conflict lies, is that the Catholic church upholds to be the one true faith, and freemasonry can not hold this to be true.

The epicenter of the authors arguments seems to show this "incompatibility" of sorts.

I think that there will never be reconcile with the Catholic church and freemasonry on this matter.

I sincerely hope that you are wrong. The Pope recently met with a grand master of masons, and there was some indication of movement, but the pope is old, and he mayhave spoken from his heart instead of from doctrine. MANY catholics are masons, and many RCC PRIESTS are masons, so there is still hope of reconciliation, even as the evangelicals move further and further away from the true faith.

Masonry is not a predominantly Catholic organization, although there are Catholics that join masonry.

This is VERY true. The RCC takes a LONG time to change its mind, and this, in the history of the church, is a recent schism.

Down the lines, there are things propegated by Catholic organizations and sects etc.. what have you, that are most likely based on ignorance and misunderstanding of masonry.

And THAT is what I think describes accurately 99% of the objectors. ignorance.

However, one point for sure, is that Masonry can not accept the Catholic faith as the one true faith established by Christ. Masonry accepts those of all faiths.

It is NOT for masonry to accept or deny any church. Since masonry is not a church and does not have a religious doctrine... I think that once this statement sinks in, and I know it may take time for some, to realize the simple elegant truth of this, then the schism will be over. You see, in my opinion, it is NOT for masonry to accept or deny any faith, any more than it is for Alpha Sigma Chi, the Elks, the Rotarians, Ford Motor Company or any other group.

I don't see anything that can be done to remedy this situation. However, religion is not discussed in the lodge, and is one way to unify those of different faiths under one roof.

Time heals all wounds, and I think the honor and integrity of masons and masonry will, in the end, win out... truth always has a way of winning. The hate mongers that call themselves christian, will, in the end, sit in a fire. Faith without works is a hollow and worthless thing, a sounding brass, a tinkling bell... in truth, masonry is christian ideals set into action...

The Catholic church desires to evanglize, and spread it's the faith across the globe, as Christ said to preach to all nations. So really, Catholicism and Masonry are at odds on this matter no? Masonry accepting all religions, Catholicism stating it is the one true religion.

No, we are not at odds at all... once folks realize that masonry is not a religion, and not in competition with the RCC, or any church for that matter, but is a place to set into motion those ideals and teachings that come from the master on high.

Masonry and Catholicism will always be at odds then. Freemasons have stepped up to plate, when the Catholic church was gaining a lot of power (Garibaldi etc). Maybe this is why the church sees Masonry as a threat, because it is an organization that is able to hinder the jurisdiction under with it can hold authority or "power".

But, the RCC has LOST that power, as all religious orders have, and now must rely on persuasion, not on the edge of the sword. Masonry encourages men to seek g-d as they know Him, and working for the betterment of society, and each other, leads a man to contemplate the divine and his place in the world. That is not a bad thing.